Does Faith in the Divine = Stupidity?

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
As for god, well i look to science on this one. If you look at all the things that HAVE to go right in the human body, that can never fail for the entire length of our lives, the complexness of just one cell let alone the whole body... it's a miracle that we are alive. Then there is how we where created, which we have no clue how that happened.
So i believe in a god.

Her heart failed...

I guess God sure let her and her family down. Then again, He works in mysterious ways, no?

The point, however, is that the parts DO fail, and when they do, we DO die.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: FoBoT
athiests don't believe in faith

faith = firm belief in something for which there is no proof

and athiests only believe in things that are provable/proven

And the great irony of that, of course, is that this belief (that one's worldview rests solely on things which can and have been proved) is twice as ridiculous as any belief in the divine, the flying spaghetti monster, or invisible pink unicorns. At least those beliefs can't be proven or disproven; the belief that atheists are grounded firmly in irrefutable logic can be disproven fairly quickly using the selfsame logic.

There is no "proof" that we're not in a Matrix-style world completely different from what our senses are able to perceive. Even if you assume logic to be a core truth (and that is an assumption), you can't reason your way out of a paper bag without a few premises...which can't be deduced directly. All logic and science rests on "first principles"...which are only true in that they haven't disagreed with our observations yet. So basically you have to have faith that cause follows effect, that the physical laws of the universe aren't changing, it's just our understanding of them that develops, that your physical senses and mental pathways are reliable and consistent, and a number of other very fundamental, core beliefs.

The difference, I suppose, is that atheists tend to have fewer core beliefs than non-atheists. But Occam's razor isn't meant to be a solid proof, just a simple way to cut through the BS in the face of competing theories that both completely explain the situation in front of you.

Indeed, it's scary the level to which people are completely and utterly devoted to atheism and science. Just as much religious fervor attaches itself to these things as to the old-time religions. And just as any good priest back in the day would urge their followers to consider their actions carefully, and not to assume that their way was 100% correct and that their understanding of faith was perfect (even though this was a faith which the priest shared), any good scientist today should urge their followers not to fall into a worshipful state and consider science as the only and perfect truth. This blind devotion serves no one, and is in fact quite frightening.

There's no Atheism without Theism. Maybe some misguided people have made Atheism into just another religion, but Atheism is not a belief system. If no one had invented God, no one would have invented Atheism.

The fact that Theism isn't disprovable isn't testament to the strength of the idea, it's quite the opposite. If anything, it's proof that Theism is no more a well grounded idea than Middle Earth is. And that's fine. Just don't ask me to show any more respect toward it than I would Tolkein.

Besides, where are these "religiously fervent" science worshipers you're so worried about? Are they down at the local particle accelerator chanting? Putting Atheism and Theism on equal footing is ridiculous. If we're strictly talking about Atheism vs. Theism here, the non-belief (NOT the belief in no God, you can't prove a negative) in any concept of God even close to that held by a Theist is vastly more likely than say... the Catholic trinity.

Most religions can't even define God in any coherent manner. What use is it talking about and worshiping an entity you can't even describe, much less understand. If there is a God, this God will be so outside our understanding that the word "God" won't even to begin to describe him adequately.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

There's no Atheism without Theism.

To paraphrase Arlo Guthrie: You can't have smart without a dumb to put it in.

 

[timosyy]

This:

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Sometimes it's stupidity. Many people believe in the unseen because they were raised or bullied into it and don't question it.

But other people, like me, who have college educations and are naturally very cynical, it actually takes a lot of courage and strength to have faith. Especially when you know every every insecure budding pseudo-intellectual twirp is going to assert intellectual superiority over you because of it.

So the answer is, sometimes. And you should have known this.

I do have faith in a higher power, and its not the easiest road to walk these days, especially in a college setting where you face ridicule by your peers almost any time the subject is brought up. I've probably questioned my faith and probed deeper than most atheists (you have to, to be able to defend it). And despite my natural cynicism and despite being constantly bombarded by secular messages telling me how I should be living life, I still stick by it.

 

[StevenYoo]

Originally posted by: timosyy
I do have faith in a higher power, and its not the easiest road to walk these days, especially in a college setting where you face ridicule by your peers almost any time the subject is brought up. I've probably questioned my faith and probed deeper than most atheists (you have to, to be able to defend it). And despite my natural cynicism and despite being constantly bombarded by secular messages telling me how I should be living life, I still stick by it.

I'm in the same boat as you

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

I'm agnostic too. It's not stupidity - it's just faith. I don't know how to explain it, and I wish I had it at times. I see things as always requiring evidence. But for something like the start of the universe, there might not be any.

Fundamentalists are just plain stupid, though. Either that or indoctrinated. Or both.

 

[hans030390]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
athiests don't believe in faith

faith = firm belief in something for which there is no proof

and athiests only believe in things that are provable/proven

That's a silly statement. Can you scientifically prove there is no God? No. Can you scientifically prove there IS a God? No. Therefore, the athiest too has faith.

 

[HannibalX]

Originally posted by: BudAshes
I know this is how a lot of atheists feel, but being an agnostic i can't whole heartedly buy into it. I know faith can hurt when it comes to broadening your horizon's, but it can also help inspire people beyond their normal limits. Just curious about thoughts on Faith in the Above's effect on humanity, and individuals.

Oh really? You sound more closed minded than a religious person.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: hans030390

Originally posted by: FoBoT
athiests don't believe in faith

faith = firm belief in something for which there is no proof

and athiests only believe in things that are provable/proven

That's a silly statement. Can you scientifically prove there is no God? No. Can you scientifically prove there IS a God? No. Therefore, the athiest too has faith.

QFT!

The athiest religion is exactly the same as the others. It even has it's preachers.

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
As for god, well i look to science on this one. If you look at all the things that HAVE to go right in the human body, that can never fail for the entire length of our lives, the complexness of just one cell let alone the whole body... it's a miracle that we are alive. Then there is how we where created, which we have no clue how that happened.
So i believe in a god.

Her heart failed...

I guess God sure let her and her family down. Then again, He works in mysterious ways, no?

The point, however, is that the parts DO fail, and when they do, we DO die.

When did God say his purpose was to keep people from dying? Whether or not God is real, belief in him does not cure all suffering and death.

 

[redgtxdi]

Originally posted by: StevenYoo
I'm in the same boat as you

Read any of the works by Charlie Campbell.

http://www.alwaysbeready.com

This is a guy who started out trying to disprove God. (I've, personally heard him speak 3 times and he never fails to impress)

Anyway........he makes a very compelling argument and is very thorough about it. He's as skeptical as they come.......and I mean SKEPTICAL.

 

[Flyback]

Originally posted by: hans030390

Originally posted by: FoBoT
athiests don't believe in faith

faith = firm belief in something for which there is no proof

and athiests only believe in things that are provable/proven

That's a silly statement. Can you scientifically prove there is no God? No. Can you scientifically prove there IS a God? No. Therefore, the athiest too has faith.

It depends on your interpretation of the word 'atheism'. Atheism just means a lack of belief in deity. Unfortunately there are people who overstep the weak atheism boundary and state explicitly that 'God does not exist'.

Weak atheists (mislabeled as agnostics) do not have 'faith' god exists or does not. The 'jury is out' so to speak, for them. That is, they do not deny a deity could exist but they do not embrace or affirm any particular one without 'reasonable justification' (which in this day in age usually comes down to empiricism of some variety).

On a side note: I completely disagree with the content of FoBoT's post even if taken in this context that atheism is to mean weak atheism. Atheists certainly believe in things that are not provable or proven and affirm this on a daily basis in very fundamental ways.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: nkgreen

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
As for god, well i look to science on this one. If you look at all the things that HAVE to go right in the human body, that can never fail for the entire length of our lives, the complexness of just one cell let alone the whole body... it's a miracle that we are alive. Then there is how we where created, which we have no clue how that happened.
So i believe in a god.

Her heart failed...

I guess God sure let her and her family down. Then again, He works in mysterious ways, no?

The point, however, is that the parts DO fail, and when they do, we DO die.

When did God say his purpose was to keep people from dying? Whether or not God is real, belief in him does not cure all suffering and death.

Life after death is a huge part of almost every religion. Religion promises deliverance from the most basic human fear. Religion says you will not die.

I'm not agreeing with Kadarin, I'm just replying to your reply.

 

[Goosemaster]

pulling this out of his ass:

Hope is psychological a device that we use to deal with prolonged exposure to the unpleasant.
This unquantifiable psychological device is a personality-triggered sense of ignorance that serves to overpower other emotions in an attempt to plead ignorance in the face of certain truth, and likewise, certain expectation.

It is this sense of hope, this applicable ignorance, that drives our world, our society, our race, to do some of the ost pathetic, most , shrewed, and yet most beautiful and most awe-inspired things on record.

Hope, religion, and faith are not only the backbone of human society but the foundation on which the mind is based for many. These elements are many times inseparable facets of our entire mental functionality.

Do criticize faith or the divine is to criticize all that is and all that should be.

that does not compute.

 

[StormRider]

I'm an agnostic. I was raised in a non-religious household. I have never been to church nor had any religious teachings.

I don't think faith or religion is stupid.

During my college years I was curious about God and the possibility of proving or disproving God through logic. I was an electrical engineering major so I've taken a lot of math.

Basically, you can't prove or disprove the existence of God. There is a very powerful theorem in Logic Theory by Godel(?) that kind of says that no matter your system of beliefs (the things you accept as true -- axioms) you can always construct a sentence where you cannot prove or disprove the truth of the sentence. I took this to be a mathematical way of saying "math/logic/science can never explain everything".

Also, in math, you can explore the possibilities of taking some things as true and some things as not true. What I mean is that there is a branch of geometry that assumes that "parallel lines can never cross" and another branch of geometry that assumes that "parallel lines can cross". Both are very rich mathematical systems -- one is called Euclidian Geometry and the other is called Non-Euclidean Geometry. Both are "valid" in a purely logical sense. From this, I began to think that it's possible that it's quite valid to believe in a God and to not believe in a God. Both train of thought are valid and equivalent in my eyes.

Here's the reason why I don't think believing in God is stupid. Religion makes people happier. It brings comfort to people thinking they will see their loves ones again. It gives a sense of purpose to people.

Also, from the Matrix movies, I realized that reality is only as real as our perception. If a person lived in the Matrix and never knew it was all fake -- how different is it from a person living in the real world? From his perspective it was just as real.

Therefore, if a person lived and died while believing in a God then from his perspective, it was real. If there truly is a God then he was "right". But if there isn't a God, then he will never have known this because he is dead. From his limited perception/viewpoint, God is real to this person.

In a way, having faith and believing in a God is the smart thing to do. You will be happier in life. You will be comforted by the idea of seeing your loved ones in the future. And it will be as real as real can be. And no one can prove you are wrong.

I wish I could have this faith in God....

 

[BudAshes]

Well i will say this... God made weed and weed made this thread. So in a sense this thread was posted by God.

edit* that means whoever gave this thread only 1 stars is going straight to hell

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: BudAshes
Well i will say this... God made weed and weed made this thread. So in a sense this thread was posted by God.

what are the odds that maybe god struck out with a girl and got wasted right before Casiotech posted last time?

 

[BudAshes]

Casiotech would be the Antichrist if he wasn't such an ineffectual.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: Goosemaster
pulling this out of his ass:

Hope is psychological a device that we use to deal with prolonged exposure to the unpleasant.
This unquantifiable psychological device is a personality-triggered sense of ignorance that serves to overpower other emotions in an attempt to plead ignorance in the face of certain truth, and likewise, certain expectation.

It is this sense of hope, this applicable ignorance, that drives our world, our society, our race, to do some of the ost pathetic, most , shrewed, and yet most beautiful and most awe-inspired things on record.

Hope, religion, and faith are not only the backbone of human society but the foundation on which the mind is based for many. These elements are many times inseparable facets of our entire mental functionality.

Do criticize faith or the divine is to criticize all that is and all that should be.

that does not compute.

Whose ass did you pull that out of?

I agree that religion and superstition are almost inseparable from humanity. It's always been with us. It defines some people. That doesn't mean it's good for us. And it doesn't mean that it will always be with us. It just is.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: hans030390

Originally posted by: FoBoT
athiests don't believe in faith

faith = firm belief in something for which there is no proof

and athiests only believe in things that are provable/proven

That's a silly statement. Can you scientifically prove there is no God? No. Can you scientifically prove there IS a God? No. Therefore, the athiest too has faith.

QFT!

The athiest religion is exactly the same as the others. It even has it's preachers.

Nope. We don't have priests molesting kids. We don't have a supposedly omnipotent being that has no money and needs ours. We don't ask anyone to take anything on "faith".

 

[EGGO]

http://www.cracked.com/article...can-must-agree-on.html 10 things Christians and Atheists can (and MUST) agree on.

You can easily put something about what Atheists do in that equation and it can be perceived the same way.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: Flyback
Everyone lives by faith. Some are just more ready to admit to it.

(By faith I mean a firm belief in something for which there is no proof )

Not true.

 

[aplefka]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: FoBoT

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Faith in the above? You mean like space?

no, like in your attic
do you have faith that you have an attic in your house

No, I am an atticeist.

:laugh:

I will stop reading here before this thread has a chance to actually spiral out of control.

 

[Blain]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
athiests don't believe in faith

faith = firm belief in something for which there is no proof

and athiests only believe in things that are provable/proven

Where would an athiest have believed sickness came from, back before germs & bacteria were discovered to be a major cause?

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: Blain

Originally posted by: FoBoT
athiests don't believe in faith

faith = firm belief in something for which there is no proof

and athiests only believe in things that are provable/proven

Where would an athiest have believed sickness came from, back before germs & bacteria were discovered to be a major cause?

What kind of retarded question is that? The onus isn't on the Atheist to explain his non-belief. You don't demand that people explain their non-belief in fuckin' mole people do you?

What the hell is wrong with just saying "I don't know"? And not just "I don't know", but why SHOULD I know? Why is it my job to know? Knowing without reason is religion's job. Why do I have to have a theory about every-fuckin'-thing in the universe just to doubt your theory of every-fuckin'-thing in the universe?

I don't know any more about the great "why's" of life than you do. No one does. Not the guy in the lab coat and not the guy with the pointy-hat. But, the guy in the labcoat knows some of the "how".