Does GameWorks influences AMD's Cards game performance?

[DarkKnightDude]

Your "neutral" titles are mostly GE titles with devs that have close ties with AMD...

DIRT Rally is indeed an AMD GE title, though Evolve is actually part of the Nvidia gameworks. Probably because heavy compute in CryEngine favors GCN.

@AtenRa BFHardline is definitely an AMD title. All Frostbite titles are.

 

[nvgpu]

No one can prove anything, but because of AMD's dirty smear campaign against GameWorks, everyone just does the easy ad hominem attacks against GW.

If you repeat it enough times, it's true in their minds. Meanwhile AMD gets away scott free with sabotaging Nvidia users with poor performance through Sabotage Evolved and that's OK in their minds.

 

[Erenhardt]

No one can prove anything, but because of AMD's dirty smear campaign against GameWorks, everyone just does the easy ad hominem attacks against GW.

ad hominem? Dude, I would not give a dirty playing company's backstabbing campaign a human image.

You are too much attached to it. Company is not your friend, not a family, not even a bro. Their marketing tactics are little trixies to make you give away as much of your hard earned $ as possible. Giving it a human face is like a cry for help from a little girl lost in a dark forest...

Be strong.

 

[3DVagabond]

No one can prove anything, but because of AMD's dirty smear campaign against GameWorks, everyone just does the easy ad hominem attacks against GW.

If you repeat it enough times, it's true in their minds. Meanwhile AMD gets away scott free with sabotaging Nvidia users with poor performance through Sabotage Evolved and that's OK in their minds.

please tell us about the GE code that's unavailable to nVidia for them to optimize their drivers for.

 

[DeathReborn]

It's kinda useless at this point for AMD to support Physx when Havoks is also becoming GPU accelerated ...

Nvidia is a little too late to popularize GPU accelerated physics when they had the chance to ...

Physx could have been a common ground had Nvidia not squandered it with their stubborness ...

Now Nvidia is pretty much forced to offer automatic multicore CPU support to be even competitive with what the rest of the industry is offering or doing ...

Even game developers themselves are implementing their own physics system in their own game engines such as Ubisoft doing cloth simulation in ACU with AnvilNEXT on direct compute!

Intel killed GPU Accelerated Havok as soon as they bought it. Once Intel bought Havok AMD started touting Bullet Physics which is used by pretty much just GTA 4 & 5 & the DiRT series, hardly a roaring success.

As far as middleware goes Gameworks is quite successful in part because the IHV that makes it fully supports it, AMD relies on third parties who don't have the funding or support to really compete. The fact that developers are making their own just shows that nobody has made a big success of the market but hopefully the competition should spur developments.

 

[Erenhardt]

In order to determine whether GW is actually harming AMD in a game you have to investigate the GW parts of it.

Good luck with that.

It like saying: The god is here, you just cant see him. Prove me wrong!

GW is locked from anyone, even devs. How you expect anyone to prove nvidia a wrongdoing.

Thank god nvidia GW failed to recognize amd win10 beta driver in win10, and project cars runs 50% faster there just because GW doesn't execute amd optimized lines :twisted:

 

[AtenRa]

yea my bad DIRT Rally and BF Hardline are GE games, but for Hardline like BF4 NVIDIA was also able to optimize the game before the official release.

 

[AtenRa]

Your "neutral" titles are mostly GE titles with devs that have close ties with AMD... Have you considered the possibility that maybe the GE title performance difference between AMD and Nvidia isn't the right one but is an optimistic one for AMD?

So you mean that the performance difference between the GTX980 and GTX780Ti is 20-30% ???


Just two of the latest GW games.

GTX980 is 27% faster than GTX780Ti

GTX980 is 22% faster than GTX780Ti

Still waiting for the proof of GW actually doing something negative.

GW deals prohibit developers to optimize the games for AMD GPU, that is all the evidence you need. And the evidence is after 2-3 months when the developer is actually able to release a new patch and AMD a new driver the performance difference closes.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Project Cars is due to AMDs own failure. Older driver works much better than new.

Dont try and use that as an excuse.

And Dying Light is also covered.

AMD have been a historically bad company with software support. And when money is thight it gets worse and worse. And gameworks isnt some kind of escape goat there. Its really no different than how Intels drivers perform. Its just a matter of money allocation on support. Something some refuses to accept.

 

[Silverforce11]

This is as neutral a game as they come, because its Homeworld, the space RTS block buster from early 2000s, remastered.

It's a game where CPU overhead should be massive due to the "Star Swarm" like epic battles.

It shows a quite normal result to what we know about some of the cards in recent times.

Look where the 780, R290, 780ti, R290X and the 970/980 line up.

I did notice that in GW titles, the 980 pulls far ahead of the 780ti, but in neutral games, its very close, barely faster. So not only do GW devs NOT optimize for AMD during development, it seems GW devs focus their optimizations only on Maxwell.

This shows you cannot argue based on poor AMD DX11 drivers, because the 780/780ti suffers a lot as well.

 

[Silverforce11]

Project cars is due to AMDs own failure. Older driver works much better than new.

Dont try and use that as an excuse.

Which older drivers? You clearly didn't read their steam forums, in early 2014, AMD users have been telling the devs of broken performance.

Check the thread: http://steamcommunity.com/app/234630/discussions/0/540734792953723817/

Devs thinks its just bad AMD drivers, because AMD performs worse even in GE games... look at what he wrote:

"We do not favor anyone, we work closely with both. And there have been performance improvements lately for both sides, we even got to the point were we had to remove an optimization because it wouldnt work with AMD cards, "penalizing" nvidia users.

Go read a bit more about AMD drivers optimization and how they work, consult info on what are the similarities between developing on PC and Next-Gen consoles, you'll see it's nothing like you imagine and much different."

A gamer responds:

"If your theory is right then every game relesed for PC would run like crap do to poor AMD driver optimisation and that is not the case, the problem here is that sms is playing favorites and people like you with a democrat like approach to the issue doesnt help."

Dev response:

"It's not a theory it's a fact, check Tomb Raider, Battlefield 4 (non-Mantle), Bioshock Infinity FCAT results and see for yourself. All these games are AMD Evolved (Optimized for AMD) and even so they get poorer results. So please don't come here and accuse us of being biased."

Clearly the developers don't think much of AMD at all, didn't even bother to seek AMD's assistance (didn't inform the backers of any action regarding cooperation with AMD, except only that its their drivers, which happen to work fine in other games as pointed out my users).

ps. There's support, then there's buying out greedy devs. Clearly in every single GW title, a specific AMD performance patch was released months after launch that fixes performance. That is daming proof enough that the developers DID NOT optimize for AMD DURING DEVELOPMENT. It's something only unique to GW devs because every other recent neutral game launch has ran very well on AMD & NV. Imagine you are a gamedev, you want your game to run well on all the major hardware, as many as possible, you would optimize your game in fact for both GPUs. Maybe this concept is too hard for your brain to comprehend since its flooded with NV's koolaid, but its quite simple.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Which older drivers? You clearly didn't read their steam forums, in early 2014, AMD users have been telling the devs of broken performance.

Check the thread: http://steamcommunity.com/app/234630/discussions/0/540734792953723817/

Devs thinks its just bad AMD drivers, because AMD performs worse even in GE games... look at what he wrote:

"We do not favor anyone, we work closely with both. And there have been performance improvements lately for both sides, we even got to the point were we had to remove an optimization because it wouldnt work with AMD cards, "penalizing" nvidia users.

Go read a bit more about AMD drivers optimization and how they work, consult info on what are the similarities between developing on PC and Next-Gen consoles, you'll see it's nothing like you imagine and much different."

A gamer responds:

"If your theory is right then every game relesed for PC would run like crap do to poor AMD driver optimisation and that is not the case, the problem here is that sms is playing favorites and people like you with a democrat like approach to the issue doesnt help."

Dev response:

"It's not a theory it's a fact, check Tomb Raider, Battlefield 4 (non-Mantle), Bioshock Infinity FCAT results and see for yourself. All these games are AMD Evolved (Optimized for AMD) and even so they get poorer results. So please don't come here and accuse us of being biased."

Clearly the developers don't think much of AMD at all, didn't even bother to seek AMD's assistance (didn't inform the backers of any action regarding cooperation with AMD, except only that its their drivers, which happen to work fine in other games as pointed out my users).

Lets look on reality:

Then you can try blame nVidia as much as you like with poor excuses. Its obvious where the issue is. The issue is inside AMD and the issue is money allocation for support. You dont see people calling foul on AMDs APUs when compared to Intel due to better drivers and more money allocation for optimizations do you?

 

[Silverforce11]

Reality like NV blocking AMD's AA in Batman by checking the vendorID? The reality like how their AA code is ALWAYS running the first portion on AMD GPUs regardless of the fact AA is disabled & locked? That hurts performance by making AMD GPUs do the work, but doesn't allow it to display the output.

When players back then spoof it so it cannot detect an ATI vendorID, performance jumps up massively and AA is functional.

Looks to me like a possible case of GW code not detecting AMD vendorID in Windows 10!

NV is known for dirty tricks so please, take your sanctimonious defense of their tactics elsewhere, that kind of thing doesn't fly given their history.

Also, the reality for Project Cars is that the devs didn't give a crap about poor performance on AMD. Period. That was after all their backers who were AMD alpha testers, beta testers, told them of the poor performance. They did nothing for over a year, then launched it broken on AMD and had the balls to blame AMD drivers. Yeah. Nice devs huh?

ps. If you really think its an issue of support & money allocation, why is it even obscure indie games end up running great on AMD AND NV GPUs on launch? It's clearly a case of devs who care or devs who were bought-out. So ultimately, it is about money. NV has more of it to throw around to bribe devs into abandoning optimization for AMD as well as Kepler, because 980 being 25-30% faster than 780ti is so normal, amirite?

 

[Flapdrol1337]

Wow, gameworks has a bad rep, 83%, say what you will about richard huddy, but his forbes contributor interview thing was quite succesful.

I think it's ridiculous though, if the gameworks program really prevents a game running well with amd cards no dev would agree to it, and nvidia would get themselves sued.

Rfactor 2 got half the fps on amd cards for over a year, then amd fixed it in the 14.4 driver, yet with project cars it's suddenly sabotage?

 

[krumme]

Sorry, didn't see this post before...



I agree, both Nvidia and AMD should be more vocal when it comes to accusations like these. If Nvidia is merely providing support and features with the GameWorks program, they should reassure the public of that. If AMD is indeed getting shut out during development, they should also be vocal about that. As it is now, we have no idea what is happening, and to take one side or the other would be preposterous.



I also agree with this, I'm surprised we haven't seen more sites take a look at this. While he hasn't done so in an article (that I have seen), Brent Justice of HardOCP has chimed in about his take on GameWorks and it's effect on AMD...



Source

That interpretation from Brent must simply be wrong because when a patch gives massive performance gains it shows his asumptions is just wrong. The numbers and facts contradicts it flat out - whatever the reason then is.

 

[SirPauly]

Reality like NV blocking AMD's AA in Batman by checking the vendorID? The reality like how their AA code is ALWAYS running the first portion on AMD GPUs regardless of the fact AA is disabled & locked? That hurts performance by making AMD GPUs do the work, but doesn't allow it to display the output.

When players back then spoof it so it cannot detect an ATI vendorID, performance jumps up massively and AA is functional.

DirectX 9 and the Unreal engine at that time, didn't support native AA, and a work around had to be implemented. nVidia was there for PhysX and decided to add native AA support for their customers. Since, it was nVidia's work, supported and Q/A on nVidia GPU's, the developer implemented the lock out.

This idea of hurting performance with no AA is odd and another extreme point considering ATI offered more performance than nVidia with no AA.

The developer asked ATI to supply their own code for Batman, which they eventually did for the GOTY Batman edition.

All ATI had to do was work with the developer and respect their wishes and supply code, support and Q/A their work but they used this to attack nVidia's developer relations, imho.

 

[CHADBOGA]

I never realised Nvidia had such a lead of AMD in certain titles, this would likely impact my choice for my next GPU.

 

[SirPauly]

http://steamcommunity.com/app/234630/discussions/0/613957600528900678/

AMD was offered to work with the developer of Cars, reached out to AMD and was basically ignored and nVidia and developers get attacked.

Ask AMD to do more, pull up their sleeves and work harder and invest more for their customers, imho.

 

[Zanovar]

I never realised Nvidia had such a lead of AMD in certain titles, this would likely impact my choice for my next GPU.[/QUOT

nvm

 

[xthetenth]

I think it's ridiculous though, if the gameworks program really prevents a game running well with amd cards no dev would agree to it, and nvidia would get themselves sued.

I'm pretty sure that companies generally act in defense of their bottom lines, not to pursue an ethical outcome.

 

[raghu78]

AMD has said there will be a performance update through game patch and/or driver update

https://twitter.com/amd_roy/status/596361439016685569

So it should be resolved quite soon. This thing about poor initial game performance in GW titles is happening too often for it to be a coincidence. GW licensees come out looking more like a marketing tactic of Nvidia to hurt AMD in inital game performance reviews. There are lot of people who look at initial reviews and never even bother to check whether game patches improve the performance. So as far as Nvidia is concerned its goal accomplished. Lot of people think AMD is to blame on seeing inital performance reviews. But we have seen with FC4 (which took 4 months for CF support through a game patch) and Dying Light (perf improvement with a game patch roughly 6 weeks after launch) that actually its the developers who are to blame. :thumbsdown:

 

[SirPauly]

It doesn't help that view considering the developer desired AMD's participation and did not hear anything from them 'till October of last year. That's the problem, not GameWorks, imho!

 

[xthetenth]

The developer said this. The developer isn't an uninterested third party.

 

[arandomguy]

DIRT Rally is indeed an AMD GE title, though Evolve is actually part of the Nvidia gameworks. Probably because heavy compute in CryEngine favors GCN.

@AtenRa BFHardline is definitely an AMD title. All Frostbite titles are.

If a game engine better leverages the strengths of AMDs architecture over Nvidia's should this not also be considered a form of bias?

 

[monstercameron]

Amd should just get into the game dev business, at this point posters here want them to go around fixing games than building new gfx cards.