Does God exist to you.

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DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
If you can point at God and say 'There he is' I'll believe it.

Until then it's a good story that allowed for effective social control in times when anarchy ruled.
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
0
0
To reduce my belief on this subject to a simple paragraph or two, I'll say this (forgive the oversimplifications for readibility's sake):

I believe that "exist" is a concept that only makes sense within the framework of how we experience things. I believe that, regardless of what we *think* we mean when we say it, the concept of "exist" IMPLIES certain conditions that may or may not be the case for another type of being (or Being), despite the fact that we cannot imagine what that "existence" would be like. We cannot even conceive of what it would mean to "exist" outside of space and time. We can use mathematical formulas to demonstrate that something must be there and yet not take up space...or we can try to jam two concepts together and, by the fact that they aren't logically contradictory, say that they are "possible" and could "exist." But when it comes down to it, we can't conceive of it, and it is not really something that we can coherently discuss.

Given what I believe to be true (above), we run into some pretty serious problems with our notion of God. If you accept what I put forward in the first paragraph (in fairness, it's pretty much a paraphrase of Kant), then it makes no sense to talk about God existing "outside of time", or being "omnipresent". So now we run into trouble defining what we mean by "God". If we mean God in the same sense as the heavily Greek-influenced notion of "the sum of all perfections", then I think we are stuck in some heavy contradictions and counter-intuitive notions. If we redefine this to fit our spacio-temporal restrictions (our preconditions for experience), then I'm not sure we're still talking about God in the same sense that the layman means when he thinks of God.

Now here's the most ridiculous part: After saying all of that, I *do* believe that God exists, in some sense of "existence", and in some inexplicable way interacts with us and guides us. I believe that any true search for God's existence will lead us to the abyss, and all the hopelessness and meaninglessness that is implied by it. There is no certainty, no proof, no simple explanation that will allow us to look away from the abyss and be comforted; no real search for Truth will allow such a delusion. There is only the LEAP of faith that comes through looking honestly at the abyss and believing that Something or Someone greater than ourselves understands the meaning of it all, and wants to guide us through it to become what we are capable of being. It is a leap; it is not a step forward onto the solid marble steps of our parents' religion, and not a turning away to find some more palatable place where the chasm converges to let us hop across. It is a leap in the deepest sense of the metaphor, a leap that has no immediate visible hope of reaching a destination, or of the security of landing soldily on the other side. I would never blame or criticize a person who refuses to make the leap - it is the more rational thing to do to stay on the edge when you can't see where you might land. I chose to make the leap, and I am happier for it. But even so, I can't even help to explain why. I can't illuminate the other side for anyone else - it's our own choice to make, noone else's.

Does God exist? I don't know. But my "not knowing" comes from the man who has searched, and reached, and tried to make sense of it all, and simply admits the limits of what he has found. It is not the disinterested child's response to a question he doesn't want to answer. I can't expect everyone to come to the same conclusion, but I hope everyone understands the magnitude of the question.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,425
2
0
Originally posted by: Amused


So... you believe in 'The Force." Right?

No, I really don't believe in any something or someone. No great being or entity or force. I just believe in what is and what is all around me. It's more of a belief in an idea of the relationship between man and the universe, and of the relationship between men. It would take reams of paper to explain and I'm not about to do it here. I've investigated the belief systems of most religions and gleaned what I think are the few kernals of truth from them, as well as spent a great deal of time studying human nature and human history, although these days I've forgotten most of what I've read.

Years ago before I moved down to Mexico I had the greatest library of anyone I've known personally. I'm a pretty voracious reader and amongst all the books I had hundreds of books on religion, philosophy, mythology, cults, sociology, psychology, human history, etc. When I reached my 20's I was intrigued with the meaning of life and pursued a greater understanding of myself and my role in life. This lead to about 12 years of, well I wouldn't call it study, let's say investigation. It was interesting and in the end I discovered that life is pretty simple after all, yet at the same time very complex; a paradox. It was this simplicity juxtaposed to complexity that eventually led to the development of my core beliefs that I still hold today.

 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
0
0
Incidentally, for those of you fond of Nietszche, I don't believe he ever spoke to the question of God's existence or His nature. I believe he spoke to the fact that so many of us lean on the notion of God as a crutch to avoid the challenge of living as a free and creative being. I'm sure you can bring some individual quotes to "disprove" this explanation, but nobody gets anything from Nietszche by reading his sound bites. Take the time to read his works (Geneology of Morals, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Beyond Good and Evil, etc.) and then see if you agree.

In the spirit of slinging Nietszche quotes, let me add my favorite: "The last Christian died on the cross."

 

jahawkin

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2000
1,355
0
0
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Incidentally, for those of you fond of Nietszche, I don't believe he ever spoke to the question of God's existence or His nature. I believe he spoke to the fact that so many of us lean on the notion of God as a crutch to avoid the challenge of living as a free and creative being. I'm sure you can bring some individual quotes to "disprove" this explanation, but nobody gets anything from Nietszche by reading his sound bites. Take the time to read his works (Geneology of Morals, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Beyond Good and Evil, etc.) and then see if you agree.

In the spirit of slinging Nietszche quotes, let me add my favorite: "The last Christian died on the cross."


I would agree with most of that, but I think Nietszche was saying that God was a human creation, used by humans as a crutch and as a way to control other humans. Only when humans accept that "God is dead" and was never alive to begin with is when they can truly be free.
I guess that's my own take on it, and I really haven't read that much Nietszche, so I may just be talking out of my ass.
Anyways, God is dead.
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
0
0
I had a pretty good reply, then I read your sig about Bush, and I'm really afraid to add anything.

LOL.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,425
2
0
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel


Now here's the most ridiculous part: After saying all of that, I *do* believe that God exists, in some sense of "existence", and in some inexplicable way interacts with us and guides us. I believe that any true search for God's existence will lead us to the abyss, and all the hopelessness and meaninglessness that is implied by it. There is no certainty, no proof, no simple explanation that will allow us to look away from the abyss and be comforted; no real search for Truth will allow such a delusion. There is only the LEAP of faith that comes through looking honestly at the abyss and believing that Something or Someone greater than ourselves understands the meaning of it all, and wants to guide us through it to become what we are capable of being. It is a leap; it is not a step forward onto the solid marble steps of our parents' religion, and not a turning away to find some more palatable place where the chasm converges to let us hop across. It is a leap in the deepest sense of the metaphor, a leap that has no immediate visible hope of reaching a destination, or of the security of landing soldily on the other side. I would never blame or criticize a person who refuses to make the leap - it is the more rational thing to do to stay on the edge when you can't see where you might land. I chose to make the leap, and I am happier for it. But even so, I can't even help to explain why. I can't illuminate the other side for anyone else - it's our own choice to make, noone else's.
Rio Rebel - Interesting thoughts. I think I know to what you are referring when you say the abyss, a very appropriate metaphor, because I certainly reached that in my spiritual travels and made the leap as well. At first I rejected the notion and it quite literally stunned me for a very long time. Then I realized that it was necessary to accept it if I felt I was to grow any further. The only difference I think between you and I is that when I reached the abyss I did not sense that there was any guide. I definately felt awed and certain in that there is something of greatness encompassing what I could only begin to comprehend in the most rudimetary fashion, but I also very strongly felt an indifference. Life became meaningless. Insignificance was everywhere. Finally, I felt I was shed of all my crutches and left to fend on my own.

 

jahawkin

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2000
1,355
0
0
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I had a pretty good reply, then I read your sig about Bush, and I'm really afraid to add anything.

LOL.

To be clear, I certainly don't ummmm endorse that Bush quote. I just think its a good indication of Bush's worldview. I hope you're as scared as I am.
 

Winchester

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,965
0
0
God does truly exist. Yes I am a Christian. Yes I have seen miracles happen. Yes I believed in God way before I saw the miracles. God has always been in my life and always will and I will pray for all of you who have your eyes glazed over.
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
0
0
God does truly exist

That pretty much answered the question. You BELIEVE that God exists. The rest was answers to questions that weren't asked.

Next time you pray, my suggestion is to focus more on the person doing the praying, and not on the ones with the eyes glazed over.

 

Spyro

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2001
3,366
0
0
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
God does truly exist

That pretty much answered the question. You BELIEVE that God exists.

That also pretty much answered the question..... eh???

Care to elucidate. I challenge you, prove that God doesn't exist. I would like facts and arguements, until then God exists. Eventually you will see this also, and if not then I pity you.
 
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