Does healthcare really need to be this expensive? Recent accident.

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Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
13
81
Friend of mine killed someone on a motorcycle. He made an illegal U turn but didn't see the guy in the motorcycle coming from the other direction.

Your friend should have been charged with involuntary manslaughter. Instead he probably got a slap on the wrist, "failure to yield" or some BS like that.
 

mattpegher

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2006
2,207
0
71
As for my fellow motorcyclists, please be safe guys. Dont ride late at night, to many a-holes on the road.
I have started a ride for pleasure only policy. I refuse to commute on the bike. I ride in good weather and only for fun. I avoid highways and choose to ride country roads. I no longer feel the need to speed. Usually ride about 5 miles below or up to the speed limit. I only ride upright bikes as I don't enjoy racing style bikes. Often I will be the only vehicle on the road for miles.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Where are these rich democracies you speak of? Last time I looked, sans Norway which has those big bad ugly oil rigs off their coasts (remember how the democrats won't let us do that?) everyone is flat broke...

Oh and Canada, can't forget our neighbors on Bay Street they are doing well as long as commodity prices stay high.

You do realize that every other 'rich democracy' spends like half what we do in healthcare costs, right?
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Yeah but they've got less than half as many people.

So if there are any economies of scale available, they (we) should spend more...

The whole system is ass-backwards, from medical school admissions and costs, right through insurance, hospital care, liability, the whole 9 yards.

About the only ones who aren't really 'causing' the problem are the actual health-care workers.
 

mattpegher

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2006
2,207
0
71
Unfortunately, just like any other commodity that is financed, medical school tuition (and undergrad tuition) have risen at a rate of about 6%/year since the 80s. (per wikipedia)
It just seems that everyone is out to skim their bit off of health care.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Unfortunately, just like any other commodity that is financed, medical school tuition (and undergrad tuition) have risen at a rate of about 6%/year since the 80s. (per wikipedia)
It just seems that everyone is out to skim their bit off of health care.

The AMA's grip on the number of medical school graduates needs to be abolished and i really think we need to start thinking about subsidizing med school educations (in return for lower salaries for doctors).
 

mattpegher

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2006
2,207
0
71
The AMA's grip on the number of medical school graduates needs to be abolished and i really think we need to start thinking about subsidizing med school educations (in return for lower salaries for doctors).
Subsidizing the education is a great idea, as is vastly expanding the number of schools and med students. This country is way too dependent on foriegn medical grads. We also need to change the pay scales that drive students toward specialties, if we want more primary care. There really is no reason that any physician should make 10 or even 25 times more than another.
 

Sust

Senior member
Sep 1, 2001
600
0
71
Subsidizing the education is a great idea, as is vastly expanding the number of schools and med students. This country is way too dependent on foriegn medical grads. We also need to change the pay scales that drive students toward specialties, if we want more primary care. There really is no reason that any physician should make 10 or even 25 times more than another.

I would not lay the blame of FBB's bills on the medical education system b/c it's the entire system that's broken. The limit on the number of US docs produced annually is mostly to maintain quality control. Not just any place can hang up a med school sign and churn out high caliber docs ready for the rigors of actually taking care of your loved ones. I already see the look of concern on people's faces when they are confronted with a mere "resident" and can only wonder how much worse things would get w/o the AAMC's oversight.

I agree that subsidizing medical education would be a great idea as few people really understand what it's like to spend 8 rigorous years in school, graduate with 6 figure debt and earn below minimum wages in an 80 hour work week for anywhere from 3 to 10 years before actually making substantial money that's taxed 40% by the government. Graduating w/o debt would minimize the time spent in fiscal purgatory and maybe even convince some people that they dont have to cut you open or do something to you in order to break even.

Some physicians(e.g. neurosurgeons, interventional cardiologists, etc) would say that the extra time they spend in training entitles them to far more re-imbursement. However, the problem lies in the fact that all systems currently re-imburse more for procedures when the true cost-savings is in the prevention of disease(i.e. Primary Care). For example, medicare might not have to pay the neurosurgery bill for a spinal fusion if that one pt had not been morbidly obese for 30 years.
 

mattpegher

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2006
2,207
0
71
I would not lay the blame of FBB's bills on the medical education system b/c it's the entire system that's broken. The limit on the number of US docs produced annually is mostly to maintain quality control. Not just any place can hang up a med school sign and churn out high caliber docs ready for the rigors of actually taking care of your loved ones. I already see the look of concern on people's faces when they are confronted with a mere "resident" and can only wonder how much worse things would get w/o the AAMC's oversight.

I agree that subsidizing medical education would be a great idea as few people really understand what it's like to spend 8 rigorous years in school, graduate with 6 figure debt and earn below minimum wages in an 80 hour work week for anywhere from 3 to 10 years before actually making substantial money that's taxed 40% by the government. Graduating w/o debt would minimize the time spent in fiscal purgatory and maybe even convince some people that they dont have to cut you open or do something to you in order to break even.

Some physicians(e.g. neurosurgeons, interventional cardiologists, etc) would say that the extra time they spend in training entitles them to far more re-imbursement. However, the problem lies in the fact that all systems currently re-imburse more for procedures when the true cost-savings is in the prevention of disease(i.e. Primary Care). For example, medicare might not have to pay the neurosurgery bill for a spinal fusion if that one pt had not been morbidly obese for 30 years.

I agree that we should not sacrifice the quality of applicants. I do think though that we could use a few more american trained physicians. I am not sure if our current system is importing talent or accepting lesser trained poorer quality physicians just because they could get into school outside the US. I am US trained but most of the docs I work with are foriegn medical grads.

Definitely a bias of proceedure > time spent/quality currently. Also need to pay the same or more for one patient for 30 min as two patients for 15. Current system rewards speed at the expense of thoroughness.

I cant think of any auditable system other than billing based on documentation. Problem is that not all the quality measures slated for the pay for performance system apply to every practice. And holding docs responsible for the noncomplience of their patients is ludicrous.
 

Sust

Senior member
Sep 1, 2001
600
0
71
Hmm... this is an interesting read:

The Balanced Budget Act of 1997 froze the number of Medicare-supported positions in hospitals at 1996 levels. Since then, the number of Medicare-funded residency slots has remained relatively stable at about 100,000 per year, despite a growing demand for medical services and increasing projections of physician shortages.

Did not know that...
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
I recently had both my wife and my daughter in the ER. Wife had an extensive workup and the bill came to about $1400 for the ER physician and about $4000 for labs and a CT.
Now first I must tell you this is my ER. The doctor is one of my associates, so I know how much he makes per hour.

He is averaging 2.5 patients/hour. Billing about 3k/hour. But He is paid only about $150/hr. Why is that? First the insurance will negotiate a rate. About 40% of the billed. Then he is paid about 30% of the time, ie 2 out every 3 patients is free. and thats in a hospital with one of the best percentages of insured patients in the state. So our billing company might get maybe 300 to 500/hour. From that they pay about 100k/yr per physician for malpractice insurance. Then the billing company takes it cut. Then our employer takes its operating expenses.

Now that 150/hr is straight pay. No benefits. No health insurance (comes out of pay 100%).

As for the hospitals charges of 4k. They get paid about 10% of billed. So figure that they probably get paid about 30% of the time as well that 4k is now about $120. ($400 for 3 patients).

How does the rest of the world do it. They have eliminated the insurance companies (financing), research, oversight, and competence from the equation.


To further highlight the problem, our hospital offers a 75% discount for cash. The probably still get more from cash payors than from insurance companies.

I think this is the real problem. The people that are paying cover the people that are not. This is my main problem with our system. Either we need a system that forces everyone to pay into it or we need to start turning people away at the ER. Trying to find middle ground where they don't force people to pay but still treat them is what's driving up the bills for those of us that actually pay them.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,959
137
106
just think of all the undocumented walk ins that showed up with family in hand demanding full service and didn't pay a dime. Now you show up. A paying customer. Guess who get's to pay up for all the free loaders that walked in before you??
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
So if there are any economies of scale available, they (we) should spend more...

The whole system is ass-backwards, from medical school admissions and costs, right through insurance, hospital care, liability, the whole 9 yards.

About the only ones who aren't really 'causing' the problem are the actual health-care workers.

Doctors make a lot more here than else where and that is a significant contributor to the cost differential. You can argue that our doctors are better than other country's doctors and deserve more pay, but they are part of the reason health care is more expensive here.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Doctors make a lot more here than else where and that is a significant contributor to the cost differential. You can argue that our doctors are better than other country's doctors and deserve more pay, but they are part of the reason health care is more expensive here.

It's not a huge part though - I'm Canadian, and our doctors are well-payed. I'd say doctor pay is a bigger factor in the total cost of healthcare here than it is in the US.

And the folks who mentioned the insane cost of medical school aren't wrong; a Doctor who has worked 5-6 years and made their first million in pay will finally be catching up with what they could have done with a bachelor's degree. The reality of needing to pay for education is a real 'market force' that drives what doctors need to be paid (or there wouldn't be any doctors!).

I turned 30 this year, and my buddies who went to med school are just starting to get out in the world and actually get paid for what they do.
 

mattpegher

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2006
2,207
0
71
Doctors make a lot more here than else where and that is a significant contributor to the cost differential. You can argue that our doctors are better than other country's doctors and deserve more pay, but they are part of the reason health care is more expensive here.
According to federal statistics, physician pay accounts for only 7-8% of total health care costs.
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
My issue is that there doesn't seem to be any market forces at work in healthcare. Healthcare seems to be insulated from market forces. Prices aren't published or easy to find.

With any other service the prices are published which allow informed choice for the consumer. The market eventually settles to a price point that supports what people can usually afford to pay - the free market determines a service's "worth."

I don't see this happening in healthcare. Everything is a huge mystery.

Normal business: "We do this for $XX.XX."

Healthcare: "We do this." (Sometimes you the consumer don't even have the choice in who "we" is.)

this is part of the reason why costs are so high.
no one knows what they are paying and getting in return.
 
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