Does the RTX series create an openning for AMD?

[kondziowy]

Vega has never ever been cheaper than or the same price as it's Nvidia counterpart. Vega 56/64 has been slower than its Nvidia counterpart since launch and in the past 12 months has gotten even slower. Vega has been getting slower each month as Nvidia has continued to update their drivers while AMD has done nothing for their failed vega architecture. Not only are the Vega cards slower, they consume way more power and their in-game quality is substandard. The amount of stutter I experienced with a vega56 which was purchased for mining was incredible. There are numerous complaints about this all over web. Sorry but, if you own a vega card and purchased it for anything other than mining you got totally ripped off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJFm51OFcNA

What a collection of crap. Actually Asus Strix is the only custom Vega that can be slower than reference model and overclocks worse than reference. If Vega is a fail, than I shall preorder every new AMD gpu because if it can only get better... man their next GPU will be un-beatable.

RTX will change nothing for AMD. Nobody will even use this tech on their cards. Maybe when next RTX3000 will release with actually enough RT performance(double or triple) to use it in games in over 720p-900p resolution, then we can talk. Wasted die space and power draw on RTX2000 series.

 

[4K_shmoorK]

Haven't gone through the pages of comments yet but to me:

1. This release shows Nvidia holds the performance crown handily, to say they are 'unconcerned' with AMD coming up with a solution to compete with the 2080/Ti would be an understatement. AMD is preoccupied with the CPU market, and to me, they'd be crazy not to focus their efforts on the CPU market. AMD finally brought some long over due competition to intel. We all needed that.
2. Nvidia is pricing their cards accordingly. No competition, absolutely ridiculous prices
3. There is absolutely no need to upgrade to 2080 (worth $200 more than a 1080 Ti? doubt it) or a 2080 Ti unless you are playing at 4K and own, or plan on owning, a HDR 100Hz+ monitor. $1200+ for a consumer grade card?

Crazy.

That said I still want a 2080 Ti, but I understand that its completely ridiculous and unnecessary.

 

[DrMrLordX]

AMD is preoccupied with the CPU market,

They are also preoccupied with the pro graphics/AI market. They HAVE an updated Vega coming up, this year maybe, and we consumers may never see it.

Nvidia owns the gamer dGPU market right now 'cuz apparently nobody else wants us for anything. *sniff*

 

[SirDinadan]

Nvidia owns the gamer dGPU market right now

NVIDIA owns not just the gaming market, they completely obliterate AMD on the professional/compute staff as well - automotive, AI / neural networks / deep learning, visualization / rendering. With the RT cores there's a chance that all the OpenCL based render engines become obsolete, not that there are many, or are popular. AMD has nearly nothing (GPUOpen, ProRender, etc but these are not on the same page as NVIDIA's solutions, not in the same league).

If AMD wants to stay relevant in gaming they have to focus on consoles, I bet NV will do everything in their power to get a console deal for the next round.

 

[jpiniero]

If AMD wants to stay relevant in gaming they have to focus on consoles, I bet NV will do everything in their power to get a console deal for the next round.

Sony is definitely using AMD... if anything Navi is said to be more or less designed for Sony.

 

[PeterScott]

Sony is definitely using AMD... if anything Navi is said to be more or less designed for Sony.

Navi designed for Sony, is a total nonsense rumor. Don't lend credence to absurdities.

NVidia has a big hurdle to overcome since they don't have x86 CPU cores, which will backward compatibility much more difficulty.

Though I could see Microsoft building a high end "console" as part of the console family, which uses a separate CPU and GPU, then NVidia would have an in.

 

[DrMrLordX]

NVIDIA owns not just the gaming market, they completely obliterate AMD on the professional/compute staff as well - automotive, AI / neural networks / deep learning, visualization / rendering. With the RT cores there's a chance that all the OpenCL based render engines become obsolete, not that there are many, or are popular. AMD has nearly nothing (GPUOpen, ProRender, etc but these are not on the same page as NVIDIA's solutions, not in the same league).

Actually, AMD's professional graphics sales are up, and they're keeping right on ahead with the AI/deep learning thing. That's where AMD seems to be making most of their sales, which is why the gaming market is being treated as an also-ran by AMD right now.

The fact that 7nm Vega Refresh is likely pro-only ought to tell you something about AMD's dGPU market profile.

 

[Qwertilot]

That's a vast, exploding market. About as far from zero sum as it comes

 

[Muhammed]

AMD's professional graphics sales are up, and they're keeping right on ahead with the AI/deep learning thing. That's where AMD seems to be making most of their sales, which is why the gaming market is being treated as an also-ran by AMD right now.

Only company I know that uses AMD Instinct is Baidu, the rest of tech giants Alibaba, Baidu, Tencent, Huawei, Lenovo, Amazon, Alphabet, Microsoft and Facebook are all using NVIDIA. almost all car makers as well. most startups are using NVIDIA too.

 

[Geegeeoh]

AFAIK at least Amazon, Google and Facebook use their own chips.

 

[Timmah!]

NVIDIA owns not just the gaming market, they completely obliterate AMD on the professional/compute staff as well - automotive, AI / neural networks / deep learning, visualization / rendering. With the RT cores there's a chance that all the OpenCL based render engines become obsolete, not that there are many, or are popular. AMD has nearly nothing (GPUOpen, ProRender, etc but these are not on the same page as NVIDIA's solutions, not in the same league).

If AMD wants to stay relevant in gaming they have to focus on consoles, I bet NV will do everything in their power to get a console deal for the next round.

Very true...and sad. Even if they had hardware, which they dont, people would still have no other option than to choose Nvidia for this line of work, as all the major renderers with enough features to be considered production-grade (Redshift, Octane) are CUDA based.

 

[Muhammed]

New AFAIK at least Amazon, Google and Facebook use their own chips.

They also use NVIDIA.

In many ways, the China announcements about its cloud and server partnerships mirror Nvidia’s U.S. strategy, where it sells chips to large cloud providers such as Amazon.com Inc. AMZN, -0.32% , Alphabet Inc. GOOGL, -0.54% , Microsoft Corp. MSFT, -0.49% and Facebook Inc. FB, +0.31% , among others.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/n...sed-chips-with-chinese-tech-giants-2017-09-25

 

[jpiniero]

Navi designed for Sony, is a total nonsense rumor. Don't lend credence to absurdities.

Don't know why you would think it'd be so surprising. Sony's obviously a big customer for AMD.

 

[PeterScott]

Don't know why you would think it'd be so surprising. Sony's obviously a big customer for AMD.

So Navi architecture is Sony only? Stop taking unsourced rumors as some kind of serious news. That completely unsourced rumor was absurd from top to bottom., they said 2/3 of engineering was working on Navi for PS5 only due in 2020 or later, while only 1/3 were left to work on Vega due three years earlier in 2017. While there are decent lead times, your resources would never be allocated like that. Total nonsense rumor.

Thinking rationally. AMD develops each architecture, and then uses it in EVERY segment going forward. Consoles are the lowest margin business AMD has. They get something like a total of $100 revenue for a console SoC. It isn't what AMD would concentrate the most resources around. Especially for a product much further into the future.

The reality is they have their best people developing the best GPU architecture they can. Then they will work on packaging it for different segments: dGPUs, APUs, Console SoC.

The semi-custom business is important to AMD, but you have to recognize the "semi" part.

AMD architects CPU and GPU, and memory elements to use in multiple product segments.

If you get semi-custom work, you then get to choose from those already architected elements to package together in your semi-custom product.

Semi-custom isn't getting your own custom architecture, and putting AMDs main work on hold.

 

[Kenmitch]

So Navi architecture is Sony only? Stop taking unsourced rumors as some kind of serious news. That completely unsourced rumor was absurd from top to bottom., they said 2/3 of engineering was working on Navi for PS5 only due in 2020 or later, while only 1/3 were left to work on Vega due three years earlier in 2017. While there are decent lead times, your resources would never be allocated like that. Total nonsense rumor.

Thinking rationally. AMD develops each architecture, and then uses it in EVERY segment going forward. Consoles are the lowest margin business AMD has. They get something like a total of $100 revenue for a console SoC. It isn't what AMD would concentrate the most resources around. Especially for a product much further into the future.

The reality is they have their best people developing the best GPU architecture they can. Then they will work on packaging it for different segments: dGPUs, APUs, Console SoC.

The semi-custom business is important to AMD, but you have to recognize the "semi" part.

AMD architects CPU and GPU, and memory elements to use in multiple product segments.

If you get semi-custom work, you then get to choose from those already architected elements to package together in your semi-custom product.

Semi-custom isn't getting your own custom architecture, and putting AMDs main work on hold.

I semi agree with your logic.

 

[jpiniero]

So Navi architecture is Sony only?

Never said it was Sony only, only that it was designed around Sony's needs. I'm sure you will see discrete GPUs from AMD using it.

 

[DrMrLordX]

That's a vast, exploding market. About as far from zero sum as it comes

Exactly. AMD is moving product, which is all that counts, for now. They can't push Vega forever, though.

 

[PeterScott]

Never said it was Sony only, only that it was designed around Sony's needs. I'm sure you will see discrete GPUs from AMD using it.

So AMD was busy developing next generation architecture, but Sony with their great current experience in GPU designs, stepped in and told them how to do it correctly?

And you believe this on the strength of a completely unsubstantiated rumor?

 

[ultimatebob]

When is the new Intel GPU coming out? I'd be more worried about them stealing Nvidia's thunder than AMD, who seems to be about 2 years behind at the moment unless you're one of those crazy people mining crypto with a video card.

 

[NTMBK]

So AMD was busy developing next generation architecture, but Sony with their great current experience in GPU designs, stepped in and told them how to do it correctly?

And you believe this on the strength of a completely unsubstantiated rumor?

Hey, it worked out really well with the Cell!

 

[SirDinadan]

Very true...and sad. Even if they had hardware, which they dont, people would still have no other option than to choose Nvidia for this line of work, as all the major renderers with enough features to be considered production-grade (Redshift, Octane) are CUDA based.

AMD is not even considered by professionals when it comes to GPU selection for 3d rendering, only a handful of small teams go for AMD solutions.

The gap was enormous before, now it is on a whole new level. The companies that will integrate RT cores to their render engines:
Autodesk (Arnold), Chaos Group (VRAY GPU & Project Lavina), Blender (Cycles), Epic (Unreal), Otoy (OctaneRender), Pixar (Renderman), Redshift, Weta

I would like to cite a short portion of a recent interview:
CG Channel: What’s the status of OpenCL in V-Ray GPU? Your blog posts only mention CUDA.
Lon Grohs (Chaos Group): We keep some support for it, but it’s not really advised. We’ve had a good relationship with AMD, but there have been driver problems and all kinds of things. And then of course they’ve released their own renderer, which complicates things.
The reality is that [something] like 99% of our customers are on Nvidia hardware. And Nvidia has really helped us push our development forward.

One just have to wonder how AMD is run, I mean how on Earth is this acceptable at any level? AMD still doesn't understand that no one will integrate / code their solutions to any software, they have to devote the resources to make things happen.

 

[jpiniero]

So AMD was busy developing next generation architecture, but Sony with their great current experience in GPU designs, stepped in and told them how to do it correctly?

Ah, well you know it's the kind of thing where Sony tells AMD what to focus on and what features it needs. The actual implementation is up to AMD. I actually don't think it's going to be too radical of a departure from GCN.

 

[maddie]

Ah, well you know it's the kind of thing where Sony tells AMD what to focus on and what features it needs. The actual implementation is up to AMD. I actually don't think it's going to be too radical of a departure from GCN.

Reminds me of when Sony pushed for and got the addition of asynchronous compute in GCN. Wonder what might be happening now.

 

[Dribble]

Software has always been AMD's weakness. I think the problem is AMD comes from the x86 cpu background where basically you make some hardware that matches the spec and then MS, Intel and everyone else will write all your software. When AMD bought Ati they never really considered the importance of software for gpu's - it's just drivers. Mantle is an attempt to push the burden of driver writing off AMD and onto the devs, so they are still continuing with that path - release the best hardware you can and get everyone else to write the software. That's also why they do well in consoles - MS and Sony want to write all the software, they just want AMD to provide the hardware.

Anyway anything that requires AMD to write software themselves beyond a basic driver goes bad pretty quickly. The normal response is some power point slides, some talk of open source, and then nothing. So for professional workstations, gpu compute, gpu farms, linux, etc - they nearly all use Nvidia due to better software support.

It's also why Nvidia is so keen on stuff like gamesworks - they recognise AMD's weakness and prey on it by writing lots of pretty locked in custom software and then challenging AMD to make their own version knowing they mostly can't.

 

[sxr7171]

Navi designed for Sony, is a total nonsense rumor. Don't lend credence to absurdities.

NVidia has a big hurdle to overcome since they don't have x86 CPU cores, which will backward compatibility much more difficulty.

Though I could see Microsoft building a high end "console" as part of the console family, which uses a separate CPU and GPU, then NVidia would have an in.

Yes but it would probably be $799 and sell relatively few. I would support it wholeheartedly but it remains to be seen how many would buy it. I know a few people who absolutely will not get involved in PC building. For them money isn’t quite the issue as is convenience.

It’s very hard to say splitting the family with two different architectures. They may as well make a prebuilt gaming PC and use the Xbox branding to sell it. Windows 10 has made PC almost painless these days. Even if games crash the OS stays up. The gamebar stuff works. It feels like a console these days. You can alt-tab out of games without causing havoc.

They just need to create the interface that auto launches and is controller controlled from the start. I suppose this would mean all Xbox games would work on PC within their sub platform. Again then that would prevent Xbox developers from fully optimizing for a single hardware target. It might end of pretty fragmented again.