Does the U.S. need factories to be an economic power? (Take two)

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
In previous days I've argued that having a strong industrial/manufacturing base isn’t as important to a nation as it once was. But lately I’ve wondered if a loss of that base has greater implications than we think.

I’m not a Jacobs devotee like many urban-minded Torontonians are, but I did think that this summation of her theory of “import replacement” is a very good explanation for why we may want manufacturing to stick around. A lot of her theories are very debatable and weak in evidence, but I think if nothing else it's a good starting point for discussion.

The Millions – Fifty Years On: Jane Jacobs and the Rebirth of New York

Why did a city like New York recover when a city like Detroit, which had a more durable industrial base, fell into blight and decay? The answer, Jacobs argues in The Economy of Cities, turns on the ability of a city’s inhabitants to innovate. Cities grow, she says, through a process she calls “import replacement.” This occurs when local tradesmen produce for themselves the goods and services they had previously been importing and then use the skills learned from this local production to create new products, which they can then export in great bulk.

Detroit, she notes, began as a port for shipping flour across the Great Lakes. Soon, local manufacturers were building their own steamships to make the lake crossings and got so good at it they began making ocean-going ships for use in other cities. This not only put money into local coffers, but supported the dozens of local engine-parts makers Henry Ford drew upon when he founded the Ford Motor Company.

But here’s the rub: the auto industry was so successful that once Ford arrived at his greatest innovation, the assembly line, the industry so dominated Detroit’s economy that there was no local market for further innovation, and, as Jacobs points out, it was only a matter of time before another city – in this case, cities in Japan – improved upon Ford’s ideas and made better, cheaper cars.

The Economy of Cities came out four years before the gas crisis that set Detroit’s long tailspin in motion, but it eerily predicts the dilemma the city faces today, in which a moribund auto industry, out-innovated by foreign competitors, had to be bailed out by the U.S. taxpayer to avoid collapse.

Like Detroit, New York began as a port city, but in New York’s case a principal byproduct of its shipping trade was a robust banking industry, which survived the city’s manufacturing collapse. Even as New York was begging for a bailout from the federal government in the mid-1970s, young hotshots like Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken, many of them children and grandchildren of immigrants who had filled the ghettos earlier in the century, were inventing new ways to own and finance large companies. Think of all the financial innovations of the last thirty years: junk bonds, hedge funds, leveraged buyouts, asset-backed securities, credit derivatives, subprime mortgage markets, and on and on.

Yes, bankers are evil, and, yes, the banking industry required a federal bailout even larger than that of the auto industry’s, but like it or not, New York is the safest large city in America, with a vital private sector and a buoyant real estate market, largely because the living, breathing organism we call Wall Street has spent the last thirty years innovating its way out of obsolescence.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
What gives a country wealth and power even in the 21st century? It's still manufactured goods. Rich people have more and better quality manufactured goods. Perhaps most importantly, it's complex manufactured products that give countries military power.

Not only is that idea that we're going to be a continental Luxembourg naive, but it just isn't safe. This is one of my biggest issues with outsourcing. Even if we could live comfortably in a world where China and other third-world countries produce most goods, would we want to hand over our security to China? Of course not. I don't see how you can have military independence and dominance without a solid manufacturing base that can produce all parts of the chain in a complex product like a tank or a plane.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Cant have factories with the Labor Department, EPA, and IRS breathing down industries neck.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
In previous days I've argued that having a strong industrial/manufacturing base isn’t as important to a nation as it once was. But lately I’ve wondered if a loss of that base has greater implications than we think.

I’m not a Jacobs devotee like many urban-minded Torontonians are, but I did think that this summation of her theory of “import replacement” is a very good explanation for why we may want manufacturing to stick around. A lot of her theories are very debatable and weak in evidence, but I think if nothing else it's a good starting point for discussion.

The Millions – Fifty Years On: Jane Jacobs and the Rebirth of New York


First, Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken were crooks and liars and a prelude of all things wrong with wallstreet that are here today, Book is called Den of Thieves and is about their rise and fall.
http://www.amazon.com/Den-Thieves-Ja...8118183&sr=8-1

Michael Milken, Ivan Boesky, Martin Siegel, and Dennis Levine will long be remembered for the Wall Street insider trading scandals of the 1980s. Stewart, a Pulitzer Prize-winning Wall Street Jour nal reporter who covered the various scandals, has used his reportage as well as an exhaustive culling of court documents, testimony, and interviews with all of the participants to fashion an authoritative account of what happened. Stewart has done a thorough job in assembling the facts and has made connections that may surprise some readers. For example, Milken, the Drexel Burnham Lambert junk bond king who convinced many savings institutions and insurance companies to buy these bonds in large quantities, may have indirectly contributed not only to the bailout of various thrifts but also to the insolvency of some insurance companies. While this is a well-researched and highly readable work, there is such an abundance of financial details that a glossary of terms and related Wall Street jargon would have been helpful. This minor caveat aside, Stewart's contemporary morality tale is recommended for all business collections in public, special, and academic libraries.

Wall street mentality is what's bringing this country down along with their bought and paid for politicians with the what have you done for me lately attitude not caring about this country past the next quarter stock report or election cycle.
 

RbSX

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
8,351
1
76
My opinion on this issue is this:

While it isn't necessary, manufacturing is more recession proof than a service based industry and gives an economy more versatility, as such it is a necessary staple of any country.

In a recession, services are the first thing to go.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
It should depend upon what the market wants. But if we're to have more manufcaturing, it will have to come through a drastically reduced corporate tax, removal of deductions for employer provided health insurance, no regulations (just common law courts for infringement of private property rights), no protectionism, no managed trade, and no inflation of currency. Unfortunately, if we ever have large scale manufacturing in this country again, then we'll have all of those things with it, so as it is proposed (i.e., with tariffs and weak currency), it's not a good idea. That's how Romney wants it.

A weak currency actually doesn't help protect exporters anyway, because the country with the strong currency can just buy up the company that's based in the country with the weak currency. Unfortunately, Mitt Romney's pro-inflation, too many people fall for the "domestic inflation is good for domestic manufacturers", and too many people forget that we're all consumers.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,810
10,345
136
Yes, bankers are evil, and, yes, the banking industry required a federal bailout even larger than that of the auto industry’s, but like it or not, New York is the safest large city in America, with a vital private sector and a buoyant real estate market, largely because the living, breathing organism we call Wall Street has spent the last thirty years innovating its way out of obsolescence.

let me just take a moment to laugh at that statement... HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

the innovations they make are how to better scam people. real innovation comes from production of tangible goods - automotives, aircraft, spacecraft, etc.

that's why the governor of michigan was super pissed about the bailouts. what exactly does wall street do? what do they produce? they may "produce" wealth, but they certainly don't actually MAKE any product.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
Does the U.S. need factories to be an economic power?

In a word: YES!

Now go tell Obama and the Liberal/Democrats. They need to know this.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
We need some manufacturing in this country to have somewhere to put the high-school dropouts and other unskilled people. The kind who can't handle anything beyond textile manufacture or other jobs that can and are done by people in Cambodia and Sierra Leone. Besides, it will make the Democrats happy and give the Republicans something to feel morally superior about.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
No, we have moved beyond such primitive relics of the industrial era (error)...

Factories serve only to be modern slave fields that serve our corporate overlords. Not only do they look so ugly, like wind turbines, they also pollute the air and poison the water.

If we did not have these large sarcophagi on our shores, we could finally reduce our carbon footprint and return to a balance.

Think of it, large communal farms, every community growing what they consume locally with no need to put more poison in the air. With the proper organic farming techniques, these large communal farms would have minimal impact upon nature.

Once we ban For-Profit universities, we can use the money freed from federal student loans to send those who are unable to farm to college, so they can develop the next generation of green energy so that we might one day return to some of the "luxuries" that people enjoy that are unsustainable, such as air-conditioning.

Now if you excuse me, I must leave my middle-class accommodations for the day, and remove myself from my vast array of electronics for a while, put on my designer clothing and go protest about how bad life is and how "the man" is keeping me down.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
There are only three ways to generate wealth.

You can grow something.

You can mine something.

You can manufacture something.

Every other business and service springs around those to support wealth generation including government. All are easily replaceable as well and will follow where wealth is made.

It's no accident Japanese and China banks became the largest in the world or that pure service economies are broke ass and rely on tourism.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
There are only three ways to generate wealth.

You can grow something.

You can mine something.

You can manufacture something.

Every other business and service springs around those to support wealth generation including government. All are easily replaceable as well and will follow where wealth is made.

:thumbsup:
 

jstern01

Senior member
Mar 25, 2010
532
0
71
It should depend upon what the market wants. But if we're to have more manufcaturing, it will have to come through a drastically reduced corporate tax, removal of deductions for employer provided health insurance, no regulations (just common law courts for infringement of private property rights), no protectionism, no managed trade, and no inflation of currency. Unfortunately, if we ever have large scale manufacturing in this country again, then we'll have all of those things with it, so as it is proposed (i.e., with tariffs and weak currency), it's not a good idea. That's how Romney wants it.

A weak currency actually doesn't help protect exporters anyway, because the country with the strong currency can just buy up the company that's based in the country with the weak currency. Unfortunately, Mitt Romney's pro-inflation, too many people fall for the "domestic inflation is good for domestic manufacturers", and too many people forget that we're all consumers.

What is with you people. Corporations as a rule rarely pay anywhere near the stated 35%. In fact the tax rate for most of the Fortune 500 range from none to about 17%. So the rate of 35% is just a boogie man. What about when corporate rates were higher in the 1950'/60/70's and we were opening factories left and right?

The issue is whether or not the government want to repel all of these free trade agreements, that do not favor the US, and encourage the outsourcing of our manufacturing? How about going back to when we had tariff's that use to fund upwards of 60% of the federal budget?
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
There are only three ways to generate wealth.

You can grow something.

You can mine something.

You can manufacture something.

Every other business and service springs around those to support wealth generation including government. All are easily replaceable as well and will follow where wealth is made.

It's no accident Japanese and China banks became the largest in the world or that pure service economies are broke ass and rely on tourism.

simple, but spot on.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Does the U.S. need factories to be an economic power?

In a word: YES!

Now go tell Obama and everyone in Congress, regardless of party. They need to know this.

fixed for you. The Republicans and the Democrats are equally bad in this regard.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
In previous days I've argued that having a strong industrial/manufacturing base isn’t as important to a nation as it once was. But lately I’ve wondered if a loss of that base has greater implications than we think.

Besides economic stability, a strong manufacturing base can be retooled during times of war.

One of the problems with the USA, Canada,,, and the rest of the world, we have forgotten what its like to be in a "real" war. This war in Iraq is not a war where our cities are being bombed. We do not even have to buy war bonds like people did during WW2.

If the US went to war with someone like russia or china, we have no steel mills, we have only a couple of ship yards spread out through the country to build ships with. The ship yards from the 1940s and 1950s have been demolished. All that remains in some locations is an open field. There "might" be left-overs from the old ships yards, but they are far and few inbetween.

Lets say we went to war with a superpower like china, where are most of our welding machines built? Where is most of our steel made, where are our circuit boards built?

To defeat the USA, all a country has to do is cut off our trade routes. After the x-box supplies run out at walmart, people will be begging the US government to surrender.

If the US were ever cast into a real war, the public would not know how to react. We have no factories that can be retooled, our youth have been told manual labor is for the stupid, and if you do not go to college you are throwing your life away.
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
There are only three ways to generate wealth.

You can grow something.

You can mine something.

You can manufacture something.

Every other business and service springs around those to support wealth generation including government. All are easily replaceable as well and will follow where wealth is made.

It's no accident Japanese and China banks became the largest in the world or that pure service economies are broke ass and rely on tourism.

You can also create something - ideas and information can and do enhance wealth.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Besides economic stability, a strong manufacturing base can be retooled during times of war.

One of the problems with the USA, Canada,,, and the rest of the world, we have forgotten what its like to be in a "real" war. This war in Iraq is not a war where our cities are being bombed. We do not even have to buy war bonds like people did during WW2.

If the US went to war with someone like russia or china, we have no steel mills, we have only a couple of ship yards spread out through the country to build ships with. The ship yards from the 1940s and 1950s have been demolished. All that remains in some locations is an open field. There "might" be left-overs from the old ships yards, but they are far and few inbetween.

Lets say we went to war with a superpower like china, where are most of our welding machines built? Where is most of our steel made, where are our circuit boards built?

To defeat the USA, all a country has to do is cut off our trade routes. After the x-box supplies run out at walmart, people will be begging the US government to surrender.

If the US were ever cast into a real war, the public would not know how to react. We have no factories that can be retooled, our youth have been told manual labor is for the stupid, and if you do not go to college you are throwing your life away.

Eh, I hear this every once in a while and it never really jibes with me. Fact of the matter is that the knowledge needed to manufacture weapons and technology at home isn't irretrievable; it could be spun up as needed in the event of a crisis (which wouldn't happen out of nowhere anyways).

Cutting off trade to North America would be next to impossible. In comparison, cutting off supplies of fuel to China would be relatively simple.

People always rise to the occasion. For all the curmudgeonly talk that happens, each new generation is smarter, faster and stronger than the one before it. We should be so lucky as to jettison our current bunch of leaders and let people not indoctrinated into 1950s era bullshit take charge.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
You can also create something - ideas and information can and do enhance wealth.

Those ideas and information must be protected in order for them to create wealth. Copyright and patents shift the benefit from manufacturing to ideas. If a country does not abide by the patent and copyright laws of the country where the technology comes from, the benefit is shifted back towards the manufacturing.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
There are only three ways to generate wealth.

You can grow something.

You can mine something.

You can manufacture something.

Every other business and service springs around those to support wealth generation including government. All are easily replaceable as well and will follow where wealth is made.

It's no accident Japanese and China banks became the largest in the world or that pure service economies are broke ass and rely on tourism.

Can I add:

You can learn something.
 
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