Doesn't raising the min wage raise the min livable wage?

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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Agree or disagree (and why) with the following?:
Because labor costs (or paying more for less or lower quality) go up, that would mean that the minimum wage isn't worth as much which means it is not possible to set it to be a livable wage.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Agree or disagree (and why) with the following?:
Because labor costs (or paying more for less or lower quality) go up, that would mean that the minimum wage isn't worth as much which means it is not possible to set it to be a livable wage.

You can set a legal wage limit however high you want, the problem is finding employers willing to offer jobs at that rate.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
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The jobs have to be done. McDs and other fast food chains won't shut down or increase prices if they pay their employees more.

The labor market is shit so they pay as little as they can.

No, raising the min wage wouldn't raise the livable wage, it would simply bring it closer to a livable wage.

This is about income inequality, fixing it doesn't move the inequality to a different set of numbers.

That being said, as always, power is in the consumer. Legislators will never get this or other meaningful issues like education right.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Agree or disagree (and why) with the following?:
Because labor costs (or paying more for less or lower quality) go up, that would mean that the minimum wage isn't worth as much which means it is not possible to set it to be a livable wage.
No. It is not possible to set a livable wage, because that amount will vary over time and location. A livable wage is going to be based on the cost of living, which is only going to be slightly affected by others' wages.

If minimums are set too high, there will be fewer jobs offered for low wages. Employers can't just, "suck it up," and raise their prices to match, too often. The costs of goods, and workable profit margins, and not going to rise to meet the new costs, because people aren't going to pay that much more.

To what Attic said, I would add that it is a problem of cultures, which is why it cannot be successfully legislated away or around. You can't legislate companies into valuing people more.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
The jobs have to be done. McDs and other fast food chains won't shut down or increase prices if they pay their employees more.

The labor market is shit so they pay as little as they can.

No, raising the min wage wouldn't raise the livable wage, it would simply bring it closer to a livable wage.

This is about income inequality, fixing it doesn't move the inequality to a different set of numbers.

That being said, as always, power is in the consumer. Legislators will never get this or other meaningful issues like education right.

that would work if nothing else changed...
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Stop with this 'livable wage' bullshit.
Its all a construct by the progressive for social justice.
It is fantasy land that has no bearing in reality.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,001
113
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Overall I don't think that raising the minimum wage would raise the living wage. What it does is increase the purchasing power of a long-eroded working class. This is good for business and jobs because it is very effective in increasing demand across the board. Consumers will still shop for the lowest price even though they may be buying a larger variety of things that they didn't before.

That being said, the living wage varies greatly between geographic locations. The minimum wage should be raised nationally, but it should be up to states and cities to raise it to a living wage beyond that for the few places where the living wage is considerably higher. There is a balance.

We shouldn't raise the minimum wage nationally to accommodate a living wage in downtown Manhattan. That would be absurd. Nor should we say, "hey, let's raise it to $100 per hour and it would make everyone happy! And jobless!". Its only a matter of time before someone seriously makes that fallacy to argue against an increase. That isn't what living wage advocates are proposing.
 

mistercrabby

Senior member
Mar 9, 2013
963
53
91
unskilled labor follows standard supply and demand economics. the more expensive it is, the higher the minimum wage, the less businesses, a lot of them smallish, will want to buy. In the short-term business get squeezed and can't always pass along this price increase to their customers. They will look at alternatives, such as automation. The more alternatives, the demand drops even further, and unemployment in unskilled labor goes up.

The more governments try to push up the "floor" of minimum wage, the more they screw the people they are supposedly trying to help, unskilled workers and small businesses.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,284
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The jobs have to be done. McDs and other fast food chains won't shut down or increase prices if they pay their employees more.
But they don't want to pay their employees more. Which could mean that more jobs get replaced by robots!

 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
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Overall I don't think that raising the minimum wage would raise the living wage. What it does is increase the purchasing power of a long-eroded working class.
I'm curious what law of economics you're citing to arrive at this. In what way does raising the minimum wage automatically increase the purchasing power of the middle class?

It would be nice if that's all it took to increase purchasing power, but it's not anywhere near so simple.

If anything, raising the minimum wage can drastically decrease the purchasing power of the middle class (and everyone else for that matter) and the reason why is pretty simple. When you're already making above minimum wage and a new minimum is set, your wage above it does not automagically jump up to a level the same amount higher than it was in relation to the new minimum. In fact, in many cases, you could have just seen your old wage that was above minimum reduced to the new minimum.

Example: person is making $10 above minimum, and the new minimum is raised by $5, that person is now only making $5 above minimum. It'd be great if everybody's boss would go "And now I'll just raise everyone to the same level above minimum they were before, cause I'm just so benevolent!" but we all know that's not even remotely likely in most cases.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
I'm curious what law of economics you're citing to arrive at this. In what way does raising the minimum wage automatically increase the purchasing power of the middle class?

It would be nice if that's all it took to increase purchasing power, but it's not anywhere near so simple.

If anything, raising the minimum wage can drastically decrease the purchasing power of the middle class (and everyone else for that matter) and the reason why is pretty simple. When you're already making above minimum wage and a new minimum is set, your wage above it does not automagically jump up to a level the same amount higher than it was in relation to the new minimum. In fact, in many cases, you could have just seen your old wage that was above minimum reduced to the new minimum.

Example: person is making $10 above minimum, and the new minimum is raised by $5, that person is now only making $5 above minimum. It'd be great if everybody's boss would go "And now I'll just raise everyone to the same level above minimum they were before, cause I'm just so benevolent!" but we all know that's not even remotely likely in most cases.

FYI, the middle class doesn't make minimum wage.

As to you other point, all you have to do is look at the historical minimum wage rates and adjust it to today's dollars and you will see that it's low
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
FYI, the middle class doesn't make minimum wage.

As to you other point, all you have to do is look at the historical minimum wage rates and adjust it to today's dollars and you will see that it's low
How does this address ANYTHING he wrote? I don't think he said current minimum wage was high (or anything for that matter). He also didn't claim that the middle class make minimum wage.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
How does this address ANYTHING he wrote? I don't think he said current minimum wage was high (or anything for that matter). He also didn't claim that the middle class make minimum wage.

I hastily wrote that posts and miss read it. I'll address it when I have more time.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
I'm curious what law of economics you're citing to arrive at this. In what way does raising the minimum wage automatically increase the purchasing power of the middle class?

It would be nice if that's all it took to increase purchasing power, but it's not anywhere near so simple.

If anything, raising the minimum wage can drastically decrease the purchasing power of the middle class (and everyone else for that matter) and the reason why is pretty simple. When you're already making above minimum wage and a new minimum is set, your wage above it does not automagically jump up to a level the same amount higher than it was in relation to the new minimum. In fact, in many cases, you could have just seen your old wage that was above minimum reduced to the new minimum.

Example: person is making $10 above minimum, and the new minimum is raised by $5, that person is now only making $5 above minimum. It'd be great if everybody's boss would go "And now I'll just raise everyone to the same level above minimum they were before, cause I'm just so benevolent!" but we all know that's not even remotely likely in most cases.

God damn it! I had a reply, with links, and the damn forum went down:|

Anyways.

First point; we don't quite know what the poster was referring to when he said "working class", every class works so did he mean the working poor? The middle class? Or something else.

Second; there is no correlation between minimum wage and inflation (in fact if we look at two different periods of time, one where minimum wage was raised every year and one where there were no minimum wage increases, there was less inflation, CPI, than when no minimum wage increases occurred). Even that statement can be debated so it's not proof of the opposite of your claim.

Lastly there isn't a correlation between minimum wage and business profitability.

So what does this have to do with your statement? Well, it's shows you are wrong in your assumptions, however, I have yet to see data that proves the original posters point either.

If someone could find a wealth distribution chart by year we could compare it to the years were minimum wage was raised to see if there is any correlation. The chart would need to be broken down by various percentiles to see how the middle class is affected by increases in the minimum wage.

Common sense (which honestly doesn't mean shit) says that if your primary demographic also happens to be your average employee, that paying them more will result in them spending more on your products, it was henry fords thinking as well. Is it true? I have no idea and I'm not really sure what data we would need to verify that claim. Another good chart to have, if it exists, is that charts upward mobility by year.

Since we have no conclusive data either way I will say that the one benefit to increasing the minimum wage is that there will then be fewer people supplementing their income with government resources and in theory it would lower the tax burden on everyone (more likely though the only affect would be a reduced deficit).
 
Last edited:

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Do you think if you ask your boss he will double your wage overnight?

Even when I had a factory union job I never made $15 an hour.

Maybe the problem is in their white guilt some people are just overpaid. Maybe Mcdonalds and whereever should put a tip jar on the counter and if you want you can put some extra money in there and the workers can split it up. Feel free to leave a $20.00 tip.
 
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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Go to college or some kind of tech school if you want to make more money.

In reality the public might support a $1 or $2 dollar raise over a period of time. What is really holding the low paid worker back is obammacare. Where is all the healthcare that the employer is suppose to pay for? Why do employers get an exemption but not the workers. This working class is going to have to pay more for healthcare. Where is all this money suppose to come from?
 
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Baptismbyfire

Senior member
Oct 7, 2010
330
0
0
Interesting and long-debated question.

To lessen economic inequality, I think the government can either raise the minimum wage or increase tax on businesses, and provide nationalized medicine, housing subsidy, and etc so people can live on low minimum wage. I wonder if there is any research on which method is better.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
3
81
Go to college or some kind of tech school if you want to make more money.

That's what everyone did in the 90s -00s, but then all the jobs they were shooting for got moved to india anyway so now we have a bunch of overeducated underemployed people wracked with more student debt than they can afford...
 
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