Doesn't raising the min wage raise the min livable wage?

[WhipperSnapper]

Doesn't raising the min wage raise the min livable wage?

It does, but not nearly proportional to the increase in the minimum wage. The cost would end up being borne out by people who were previously making more than the new minimum wage but who did not receive a wage or salary increase. The costs of goods and services produced by minimum wage workers would increase, but that cost would end up being less than the minimum wage increase because the increased costs would be borne by anyone who consumes those goods and services (which is far more people than just those earning minimum wage).

 

[WhipperSnapper]

But they don't want to pay their employees more. Which could mean that more jobs get replaced by robots!

There's nothing wrong with that. It's technological advance. Consequently, candlemakers and buggymakers were put out of work by the inventions of the light bulb and the automobile. If robots put fast food workers out of work, new jobs will be created to build and service the robots and the money saved on the labor cost of fast food employees will be spent on other economic activities, resulting in new jobs in other fields.

Of course, this assumes that Global Labor Arbitrage is not a factor and that the work to build/operate the robots has to be performed domestically or at least that foreign nations spend as much on American-produced goods/services as America does on the robots. (Solution--trade protectionism and tariffs.)

 

[DCal430]

Raising the minimum wage does two things.

1. Reduces poverty
2. Elevates society as a whole. With fewer people impoverish, more people will be abl to afford goods, so both the economy and the lives of people will improve.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Raising the minimum wage does two things.

1. Reduces poverty
2. Elevates society as a whole. With fewer people impoverish, more people will be abl to afford goods, so both the economy and the lives of people will improve.

Only in your fantasy world.

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...um-wage-suburban-teenagers-not-single-parents

Increased Minimum Wage Does Not Reduce Poverty
Many advocates of higher minimum wages argue that the minimum wage needs to rise to help low-income single parents attempting to survive on just a minimum-wage job. Minimum-wage workers, however, do not fit this stereotype. Just 4 percent of minimum-wage workers are single parents working full-time, compared to 5.6 percent of all U.S. workers.Minimum-wage earners are actually less likely to be single parents working full-time than is the average American worker.
Higher minimum wages do not address the main reason that most poor families live below the poverty line. Contrary to what many assume, low wages are not their primary problem, because most poor Americans do not work for the minimum wage. The problem is that most poor Americans do not work at all.

 

[Acanthus]

Only in your fantasy world.

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...um-wage-suburban-teenagers-not-single-parents

Heritage, lol.

Might not want to cite extreme right-wing stats to back up claims.

Do you know why the graph looks the way it does? The vast majority of people on welfare are single mothers and children, on welfare because if they work, they can't afford child care. The hourly child care alone exceeds their hourly wage.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Heritage, lol.

Might not want to cite extreme right-wing stats to back up claims.

Do you know why the graph looks the way it does? The vast majority of people on welfare are single mothers and children, on welfare because if they work, they can't afford child care. The hourly child care alone exceeds their hourly wage.

Ok, please cite sources that refute the data. Anyone can blather on and on without proving a thing.

You may want to note the original source is the4 US Census Bureau.

 

[HumblePie]

Ok, please cite sources that refute the data. Anyone can blather on and on without proving a thing.

You may want to note the original source is the4 US Census Bureau.

Yep, which is the entitlement mentality.

Anyone else see this thread?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2334799&highlight=section

Basically a guy buys a house for 220K in a nice neighborhood a few years ago during the housing boom. While his family was financially secure in their purchase, many in his neighborhood were not. Many got loans for houses there that they shouldn't. Many had to foreclose on their houses. Which in turn led to those houses being sold as foreclosures for CHEAP. When houses in the neighborhood used to go for 220K+ and are now going for 15K~.... it changes the value of all the houses in the neighborhood. His house dropped to 20K in value. He continued to live there, but because of the cheap "nice" housing there ended up being a bunch of poor people with really bad values that moved in. Crime rate sky rocketed in the neighborhood. Property values went down even further. It was a vicious cycle. His family lived there as long as they could, but when gun shoot outs starting happening in his street in broad daylight he decided to move out. Instead of foreclosing, which probably would have been the smart thing in his case, his family continue to own the house. They tried to rent it, but with a mortgage of 220K for the house to pay off still that meant a high rent rate than the area was worth. He couldn't afford to pay off two places without renting the one. So he was forced to sign up for section 8 rentals. Which means the government pays the vast majority of the rent for someone else to live there that is considered impoverish.

So the government is paying over $1000 a month for a couple min wage workers to live in a nice upscale house a month. The min wage workers had to pay only $53 a month for rent. They couldn't even do that. They trash the house completely. I mean the house is TRASHED once he was able to get them evicted. The guy got screwed.

Why? Because this whole debate has NOTHING to do with minimum wage and more about respecting themselves, respecting others, and knowing how to live within their means.

I lived many years ALONE on minimum wage. I was able to afford rent, utilities, food, and the occasional "nicety" every so often. I wasn't out trying to eat steak dinners, buying iphones, or other latest gadget. I wasn't out clubbing every night, fronting to bang some smalls, or doing other stupid shit with my limited income. The only assistance I got was for my continuing college education because I had the GI Bill from doing 4 years in the military. That is it. I used no food stamps, no housing assistance, and no welfare. I didn't pop out kids, because condoms are FAR cheaper. So I didn't have to worry about supporting another person when I was trying to support myself on min wage.

There in lies the whole problem with this debate. A minimum wage IS a livable wage, if one is willing to live within their means. That means stop trying to be a baller, stop having kids (preferably none at all until you can afford them), and stop trying to make someone else fix your problem in life. THAT is the real solution to the problem.

The more handouts, government assistance, and other things that enable that type of behavior is what has led our country to have more poor than any other class of people right now. It's why I national debt and deficit spending is so high. The majority of government spending in this country right now is for these entitlement programs. People are relying far to much on government to solve their own problems than they should.

Raising min wage is NOT going to solve the underlying issues at this point. It's just going to exacerbate them.

 

[Acanthus]

Ok, please cite sources that refute the data. Anyone can blather on and on without proving a thing.

You may want to note the original source is the US Census Bureau.

Forgive me for thinking you could learn on your own.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/171886/week-poverty-us-single-mothers-worst

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poverty_Rates_by_Age_1959_to_2011._United_States..PNG

https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p70-135.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/04/us/child-care-costs-are-up-census-finds.html

 

[HumblePie]

Forgive me for thinking you could learn on your own.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/171886/week-poverty-us-single-mothers-worst

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poverty_Rates_by_Age_1959_to_2011._United_States..PNG

https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p70-135.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/04/us/child-care-costs-are-up-census-finds.html

What the fuck does that have to do with discrediting the data presented? The data from the US Census Bureau states that the majority of Americans in Poverty aren't simply not working. A very few families are subsisting off minimum wage jobs that are in the poverty category.

That increasing the minimum wage won't change that at all. As it has never changed it any time it has ever been increased. The various motivations, such as child care costs, have nothing to do with why people don' work. People that work min wage, and are still considered in poverty get the same government help for child care as those that don't work at all. Your argument there is weak.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Forgive me for thinking you could learn on your own.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/171886/week-poverty-us-single-mothers-worst

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poverty_Rates_by_Age_1959_to_2011._United_States..PNG

https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p70-135.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/04/us/child-care-costs-are-up-census-finds.html

Ok, now how does that refute the data I posted? Are you saying the US Census Bureau has incorrectly analyzed the data they co0llected?

 

[Acanthus]

Ok, now how does that refute the data I posted? Are you saying the US Census Bureau has incorrectly analyzed the data they co0llected?

No. I'm saying that without context your data is worthless.

The fact that it is not "worth it" for a single mother to work is the main cause of your statistic.

For some reason people envision nuclear families living on welfare in Bentleys just living it up while collecting $8000/mo in welfare.

Reality is it is usually a single mother of one two or three, and child care is more expensive than they could make as unskilled labor.

Sure you can say "stop having kids" but that doesn't mean we should punish the kids for their mothers actions. Then the whole issue of birth control for the impoverished comes up.

From a utilitarian standpoint we should have a state-funded planned parenthood on the corner of every inner-city neighborhood giving out free condoms and birth control pills and IUDs. But we don't. So kids in the inner-city happen. Now society has to deal with it lest they all become hardened criminals.

 

[woolfe9998]

This to a degree.

I don't personally see a problem with paying low wages for people that want to accept that work. I see a problem with areas that only have jobs available at those wages. Which is not so much a minimum wage issue but a drive to succeed issue. Why don't people go out of their way today to pick up a trade by apprenticing themselves to something that will provide a skill that will endure. The whole point to min wage jobs, like burger flipping, is that it's a job literally anyone can do. It's not meant to be a job people depend on for their lives. It's a stop gap or a stepping stone job. Nothing more. The vast majority of people in this country have done a min wage job at one point, including myself.

But people just don't have that drive anymore. They rather work at a min wage job or two, collect food stamps and other government subsidies, and just "get by" while making lamenting complaints about their lot in life hoping someone else will fix it for them.

I agree some people are screwed over a bit by location for jobs available, but that is the minority and not the majority.

Do we have a labor shortage for the higher paid and more skilled jobs? Someone has to flip the burgers. Also, since we have structural unemployment in this country, someone has to be out of work. Every single last person can learn a trade and it won't create new jobs in those trades.

 

[HumblePie]

Do we have a labor shortage for the higher paid and more skilled jobs? Someone has to flip the burgers. Also, since we have structural unemployment in this country, someone has to be out of work. Every single last person can learn a trade and it won't create new jobs in those trades.

Jobs are always been made by the entrepreneurs of any given country of any given time frame in history. It's people striking out on their own to fill a need/want society already has, or finds a need/want that society previously didn't know it needed/wanted. Asking for others to find a skilled labor job is one thing, but when the majority of a populace start depending upon others for that without striking out then there becomes a problem.

There is never a glut of skilled labor despite what anyone may claim for a try consumer based society. As long as the skilled labor is producing there will be a consumer. The same can't be said of "intellectual" skilled jobs such as liberal arts, theatre, or under water basket weaving (to go with an old joke). When it comes to vocations that produce or provide there is never enough. Right now there are several labor shortages in many of those fields. Welders, carpenters, truck drives, medical health professionals, and building engineers to name a few. Instead we have a society that would rather flip burgers or collect welfare if they can't be the biggest name in archeology or anthropology. That's speaking for those that graduated college with those degrees. Not saying there isn't a need for those jobs, but the need will always be far more limited.

 

[piasabird]

Livable Wage = Horse Shit. It does not exist and it is purely made up. The Magic Fish said "You must go back to the hut!"

 

[piasabird]

A man can live in a hut with no electricity and no heat and no light on almost nothing and raise vegetables.

 

[DCal430]

People continue to ignore the FACT that majority of people who are on welfare and unemployed, do in FACT want to work. They do not work, because their aren't enough decent paying jobs for them.

 

[compuwiz1]

When I was in high school working at McDonalds was something you did to pay for gas in your car, dates, a new record album or some clothes. I worked at a hamburger joint and realized this was never going to be a high paying career. Nowdays you have 40 year old people trying to support themselves or a family by working at such places. I don't disparage them for working...at least they are trying to do something, vs., sitting on their asses collecting welfare. But, in this country, people need to take some certain responsibility for advancing themselves. We have plenty of opportunity, but the fact is, which has never been more apparent to me, under this administration people are just far more expecting to have money just given to them because they raise a fit. We are enabling a nation of dependency, not empowerment and certainly, we are not nurturing a people who want to strive to do better. We've lost our drive and our pride.

 

[ivwshane]

When I was in high school working at McDonalds was something you did to pay for gas in your car, dates, a new record album or some clothes. I worked at a hamburger joint and realized this was never going to be a high paying career. Nowdays you have 40 year old people trying to support themselves or a family by working at such places. I don't disparage them for working...at least they are trying to do something, vs., sitting on their asses collecting welfare. But, in this country, people need to take some certain responsibility for advancing themselves. We have plenty of opportunity, but the fact is, which has never been more apparent to me, under this administration people are just far more expecting to have money just given to them because they raise a fit. We are enabling a nation of dependency, not empowerment and certainly, we are not nurturing a people who want to strive to do better. We've lost our drive and our pride.

And how exactly do you expect a 40 year old to advance themselves? What type of school do you think they could go to to get more skills? Before you answer, keep in mind that they have to be able to pay for it and they have to be able to work around their work schedule. Let's not even get into the fact that they may have kids to take care of as well.

You dont have to answer this but how long ago did you work at McDonald's?

 

[Zaap]

What, so now we're supposed to pay for a 40 yr old to better himself? Is there anything that doesn't become a made up 'crisis' we're all supposed to get fleeced for?

Where do you even start in addressing such nonsense?

For starters, why is a 40 yr old working min wage with no resources automatically more helpless than a younger person working min wage with no resources? If anything the 40 yr old should have more wisdom and experience. Many of us were teens once with shit jobs and no resources... and no wisdom or experience. How the hell did any of us better ourselves? I'd say... by getting off our asses. Want to go to school? Then figure out how to go to school! Get a loan, get some ambition and go. Want a better job? Work a shitty one to build experience then apply for better ones until you move up.

Many of us did this in our teens and early 20's with nothing much to our names so what the hell is stopping the 40 year old? Or were all automatically supposed to feel sorry (and in lib-loon land that means financially responsible) for everyone that never moved past an entry level for 20+ years of their life?

 

[ivwshane]

What, so now we're supposed to pay for a 40 yr old to better himself? Is there anything that doesn't become a made up 'crisis' we're all supposed to get fleeced for?

Where do you even start in addressing such nonsense?

For starters, why is a 40 yr old working min wage with no resources automatically more helpless than a younger person working min wage with no resources? If anything the 40 yr old should have more wisdom and experience. Many of us were teens once with shit jobs and no resources... and no wisdom or experience. How the hell did any of us better ourselves? I'd say... by getting off our asses. Want to go to school? Then figure out how to go to school! Get a loan, get some ambition and go. Want a better job? Work a shitty one to build experience then apply for better ones until you move up.

Many of us did this in our teens and early 20's with nothing much to our names so what the hell is stopping the 40 year old? Or were all automatically supposed to feel sorry (and in lib-loon land that means financially responsible) for everyone that never moved past an entry level for 20+ years of their life?

Thanks captain hindsight! Now let's see if anyone has actual solutions and not just bullshit, could of, would of, should of crap that has nothing to do with reality.

 

[buckshot24]

People continue to ignore the FACT that majority of people who are on welfare and unemployed, do in FACT want to work. They do not work, because their aren't enough decent paying jobs for them.

So making it harder for employers to hire them is going to help the situation?

 

[buckshot24]

Thanks captain hindsight! Now let's see if anyone has actual solutions and not just bullshit, could of, would of, should of crap that has nothing to do with reality.

What is your solution shithead?

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

So making it harder for employers to hire them is going to help the situation?

Making it worthwhile for them to work would help.

 

[Zaap]

Thanks captain hindsight! Now let's see if anyone has actual solutions and not just bullshit, could of, would of, should of crap that has nothing to do with reality.

Clearly, you don't know what reality is. If you're about 16 as your mental age level implies then at least you have time to figure things out, and I hope you do. If you're 40 and still squeaking along an entry level and haven't lifted a finger to better yourself in all that time then I have no real sympathy for you.

 

[buckshot24]

Making it worthwhile for them to work would help.

That's why I think we should cut benefits.