Doesnt World of Warcraft Suck?

[BigPoppa]

Originally posted by: RBachman
Claiming casuals don't need stuff to kill and that it's fine to have less than half the hp/mana/stats as a raider because of the lack of said targets which would required it is pretty arrogant... It's more than arrogant, as arrogance requires full knowledge of others' situations, it's bordering on aloof. That you can do so without batting an eye really goes a long way toward explaining why we even disagree here. You're also contradicting yourself by denying the huge gap and its increase in size, then defending it.

And are you really claiming a rare drop with 5 competitors is just as difficult to obtain and as hardcore an item as a rare drop with 60 competitors? Wow...

Originally posted by: BigPoppa
As to the WoW forums, i've read em. Theres a ton of retards. Bnet has always been known for it. An easy game is going to attract some of the lowest common denominator type players.

And you really don't think age is the determining factor in this?

I'm in college. I see plenty of retards daily.

I've been at the high end and casual end of EQ. The gear I could obtain at any situation I happened to be in was sufficient to allow me to progress further and procure upgrades to my gear. As long as there is a path that a casual can take in order to gear up and fight through any single group content available, they have absolutely no need for the caliber of gear a raider gets.

I don't deny theres a gear gap. I'm just saying it has existed from the start of the game and remains there today. In fact every MMO i've played has quite a substantial gap between raiders and non raiders. WoW definately rivals EQ in the gap. A warrior in his tier 0 gear with an arcenite reaper compared to a BWL epicced warrior using Askhandi isn't really a comparison even. More damage while holding agro better using a 2her compared to 1h+shield (this would be in a 5 or 10 man instance tanking. Raid tanking would be a whole new world). The gap will always be there, and it should be.

 

[bdww00]

much waste of time now fps are the way to go

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: bdww00
much waste of time now fps are the way to go

k.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: BigPoppa

Originally posted by: RBachman
Claiming casuals don't need stuff to kill and that it's fine to have less than half the hp/mana/stats as a raider because of the lack of said targets which would required it is pretty arrogant... It's more than arrogant, as arrogance requires full knowledge of others' situations, it's bordering on aloof. That you can do so without batting an eye really goes a long way toward explaining why we even disagree here. You're also contradicting yourself by denying the huge gap and its increase in size, then defending it.

And are you really claiming a rare drop with 5 competitors is just as difficult to obtain and as hardcore an item as a rare drop with 60 competitors? Wow...

Originally posted by: BigPoppa
As to the WoW forums, i've read em. Theres a ton of retards. Bnet has always been known for it. An easy game is going to attract some of the lowest common denominator type players.

And you really don't think age is the determining factor in this?

I'm in college. I see plenty of retards daily.

I've been at the high end and casual end of EQ. The gear I could obtain at any situation I happened to be in was sufficient to allow me to progress further and procure upgrades to my gear. As long as there is a path that a casual can take in order to gear up and fight through any single group content available, they have absolutely no need for the caliber of gear a raider gets.

I don't deny theres a gear gap. I'm just saying it has existed from the start of the game and remains there today. In fact every MMO i've played has quite a substantial gap between raiders and non raiders. WoW definately rivals EQ in the gap. A warrior in his tier 0 gear with an arcenite reaper compared to a BWL epicced warrior using Askhandi isn't really a comparison even. More damage while holding agro better using a 2her compared to 1h+shield (this would be in a 5 or 10 man instance tanking. Raid tanking would be a whole new world). The gap will always be there, and it should be.

Ever have a rl or online friend in different caliber gear who wanted to go through some content with you? Ever watched in a mixture of awe and disgust as, solo, he plowed through content challenging to an entire group of people the same level but in your kind of gear, or tried to fight off sleep as you were in that position yourself? As I said, PoP's (and later) greatly increased gear gap put up walls between friends and smashed family guilds, and in large part killed the game by turning raiding from something to do into the only thing to do. The gap in WoW isn't as big or as game-changing, though if it's this bad at release it can only get worse and end up larger than EQ's in a shorter timeframe. It's one of very many things I don't like about the game - but this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

 

[VicodiN]

I stopped playing when I realized 'rinse/repeat' gameplay isnt really fun...

 

[BigPoppa]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: BigPoppa

Originally posted by: RBachman
Claiming casuals don't need stuff to kill and that it's fine to have less than half the hp/mana/stats as a raider because of the lack of said targets which would required it is pretty arrogant... It's more than arrogant, as arrogance requires full knowledge of others' situations, it's bordering on aloof. That you can do so without batting an eye really goes a long way toward explaining why we even disagree here. You're also contradicting yourself by denying the huge gap and its increase in size, then defending it.

And are you really claiming a rare drop with 5 competitors is just as difficult to obtain and as hardcore an item as a rare drop with 60 competitors? Wow...

Originally posted by: BigPoppa
As to the WoW forums, i've read em. Theres a ton of retards. Bnet has always been known for it. An easy game is going to attract some of the lowest common denominator type players.

And you really don't think age is the determining factor in this?

I'm in college. I see plenty of retards daily.

I've been at the high end and casual end of EQ. The gear I could obtain at any situation I happened to be in was sufficient to allow me to progress further and procure upgrades to my gear. As long as there is a path that a casual can take in order to gear up and fight through any single group content available, they have absolutely no need for the caliber of gear a raider gets.

I don't deny theres a gear gap. I'm just saying it has existed from the start of the game and remains there today. In fact every MMO i've played has quite a substantial gap between raiders and non raiders. WoW definately rivals EQ in the gap. A warrior in his tier 0 gear with an arcenite reaper compared to a BWL epicced warrior using Askhandi isn't really a comparison even. More damage while holding agro better using a 2her compared to 1h+shield (this would be in a 5 or 10 man instance tanking. Raid tanking would be a whole new world). The gap will always be there, and it should be.

Ever have a rl or online friend in different caliber gear who wanted to go through some content with you? Ever watched in a mixture of awe and disgust as, solo, he plowed through content challenging to an entire group of people the same level but in your kind of gear, or tried to fight off sleep as you were in that position yourself? As I said, PoP's (and later) greatly increased gear gap put up walls between friends and smashed family guilds, and in large part killed the game by turning raiding from something to do into the only thing to do. The gap in WoW isn't as big or as game-changing, though if it's this bad at release it can only get worse and end up larger than EQ's in a shorter timeframe. It's one of very many things I don't like about the game - but this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Check out the shroud system. Also check out the monster missions. Both allow for players of different level/gear/class/race to group together effectively.

I was never jealous of people with gear better than I have. I had a cleric friend in the server's top guild who would duo with me for xp. He'd tank and I'd dps. I played a warrior. Weird combination but it worked damn well. On coming back to the game, most of my friends had far surpassed me in gear. Wasn't really that big of a deal. They were usually more into getting upgrades for me than I was.

 

[CKent]

Shroud system / monster missions? I assume one or both is SOE's copy of CoH's Mentor system? They must have been implemented after GoD... not sure how that works out for EQ, nor do I care. I know when I left, the best xp by far was to be had in the elemental planes, zones inaccessible to the vast majority of players. If an EP-keyed friend or acquaintance were duoing with me in PoV or whatnot, I'd feel uncomfortable because I'd know he either felt sorry for me or was really bored, neither of which makes for the most comfortable gaming or best conversation. I wasn't jealous of gear... actually quite the opposite; I was proud that my gear had some uniqueness and character to it instead of 25-stats & 200 hp/mana slapped onto it like all the raid gear. What upset me about the huge gap was the way it hurt social relations - a cornerstone of MMORPGs.

 

[BigPoppa]

I'm sorry that your friends wouldn't group with you for any other reason than to quel boredom. Duoing in the revamped CT was great fun, also quite a pain in the ass with some of the pulls. Its fun to push yourself and get inventive.

I'm not sure how a lack of stats creates character and uniqueness for an item. Coldain rings, chardok faction quested items, Old school primal weapons, pre-nerf rare items are about the only items with character that I can think of.

The plane of fire is STILL one of the best xp locations. Its also extremely difficult to reach (unless your server happened to have an open raiding group). Risk versus reward is a great concept. MPG and RSS rival PoF xp. The monster missions in fact are quite decent xp, and everyone of every level can participate in them.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: RBachman
Ever have a rl or online friend in different caliber gear who wanted to go through some content with you? Ever watched in a mixture of awe and disgust as, solo, he plowed through content challenging to an entire group of people the same level but in your kind of gear, or tried to fight off sleep as you were in that position yourself? As I said, PoP's (and later) greatly increased gear gap put up walls between friends and smashed family guilds, and in large part killed the game by turning raiding from something to do into the only thing to do. The gap in WoW isn't as big or as game-changing, though if it's this bad at release it can only get worse and end up larger than EQ's in a shorter timeframe. It's one of very many things I don't like about the game - but this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Yes, infact I remember the exact moment it happened. It was Everquest pre-kunark and we had been grouping in lguk when one of our friends got invited. He was decked out in plane of hate and weilding a monsoon (I believe that was the blade) and he was tearing through monsters. We were both warriors and I felt completely useless at the time.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: BigPoppa
I'm not sure how a lack of stats creates character and uniqueness for an item. Coldain rings, chardok faction quested items, Old school primal weapons, pre-nerf rare items are about the only items with character that I can think of.

Items with character? Cobalt Bracer, Amulet of Necropotence, Circlet of Shadow, Druid Epic, Earthshaker, Guise of Deciever, Slow Hammer (I forget real name).

God did I ever love my Amulet of Necropotence. You would think it would get old. But I was basically ALWAYS using it. Oh and you can see the old pitchfork from upperguk in this SS too, lol.

http://www.pics.bbzzdd.com/beta/users/skace/EQ000123.jpg

 

[CKent]

I wouldn't have brought it up if it was just me, but the fact is the gear gap affected a lot of people that way. PoP caused what was probably the biggest shift in the playerbase in all of EQ (up until everyone recently quit for EQ2 / WoW). I don't understand why people keep harping on original EQ, it was the first of its kind and brand new. The devs were learning balance issues as they went along, and having to squash a ton of bugs on the way. They still managed to address balance concerns very quickly with RoK.

And yeah, those items really had some character to them. To add a few... Tash stick, Spear of Constriction, manastone... Gear in PoP & later is all the same, just a generic ~25 to all stats and 200 hp/mana. It doesn't even matter what it's called. This is also the era when everything - raid-obtained or not - got huge droprate increases, cause getting stuff was "2 hrd" for EQ's new target demographic :frown: Hard for something to have character when you basically just have to log in to receive it, everyone else has it, and there are 20 other items for the same slot with the same stats.

What's the name of the UI mod in that screenshot btw? I had it and was trying to think of its name the other day, to no avail.

 

[skace]

Vertigo or something like that for the UI name. VertigoUI ?

I don't have many EQ pics uploaded since bbzzdd.com kills me at 10mb, wish I had a good website somewhere. But here are a few if you want to remeniss (sp).

Cleric kited half the mobs in Plane of Fear across the zone using invuln while the rest of the raid zoned out: http://www.pics.bbzzdd.com/beta/users/skace/Verti_-_Owned_in_PoF.jpg

Taking down the infamous Stormfeather after dealing with KS's and an allnight campfest: http://www.pics.bbzzdd.com/beta/users/skace/crazyness.jpg

Kunark first comes out, back when you couldn't med without having the spellbook in your face: http://www.pics.bbzzdd.com/beta/users/skace/Verti_-_Skace_Owned_Again.jpg

Race wars was first tested on TS: http://www.pics.bbzzdd.com/beta/users/skace/Verti_-_Race_Wars.jpg

When Test Server was wiped, we were given a 1 time special event where a GM would call 1 person into the ring and then he would summon random monsters into the ring for them to battle. I can't remember the blade I got at the time, it was a rare one from mistmoore: http://www.pics.bbzzdd.com/beta/users/skace/Skace_-_Arena_Shot_1.jpg

The only way to level: http://www.pics.bbzzdd.com/beta/users/skace/Skace_-_AE_Lguk_Safehall.jpg

That's fun, wish I had all my pictures online.

 

[luv2h8]

I've played WOW since open beta started and I must say I'm still enjoying logging on. I play a lot with real life friends ranging in age from 26-40. I must admit this is my first mmorpg; however, I have always enjoyed RPGs and even a little pen and paper aD&D! In addition, I play some FPS and RTSs. In fact, prior to WOW I got hooked on playing Warcraft 3 (and the expansion) on BNET. When I'm playing WOW I do see all types of different people from different backgrounds of gaming. This can be largely attributed to the number of people that play the game and you are seeing a new generation of gamers too. The veterans are still there but the new young adults have grown up gaming and see gaming differently. Gaming has become much more mainstream in recent years which results in a different type of player community. For instance, when I was a teenager it would have been nerdy/geeking to stay home on a friday night and play a video game....Now many teens set aside a saturday to put a LAN party together and game. With this new generation comes forms of written expresion...ne1...woot....pwn...you get the point. I really don't get bothered by this type of talk. It really isn't any different than other generations growing there hair, saying dude, cool, awesome, etc. I agree that sometimes it can get a bid annoying; however, some of it makes sense when it is used to reduce your time typing....after all these games are not turn based.

 

[CKent]

Great pics skace, real trip down memory lane.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: RBachman
Ever have a rl or online friend in different caliber gear who wanted to go through some content with you? Ever watched in a mixture of awe and disgust as, solo, he plowed through content challenging to an entire group of people the same level but in your kind of gear, or tried to fight off sleep as you were in that position yourself? As I said, PoP's (and later) greatly increased gear gap put up walls between friends and smashed family guilds, and in large part killed the game by turning raiding from something to do into the only thing to do. The gap in WoW isn't as big or as game-changing, though if it's this bad at release it can only get worse and end up larger than EQ's in a shorter timeframe. It's one of very many things I don't like about the game - but this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Can't say I see a problem with gearing in WoW.
Sure, in 1vs1 PvP it'll make a huge difference, but for PvE content, it doesn't make anyone superhuman.

My main is a lvl 60 warr decked out in mostly epic gear, and I might(doubtful though) be able to solo one lvl 60 Elite from DM, but that's about it.
Of course, I never played EQ so I don't have the hindsight that you guys do, but it sounds to me like people decked out in EQ's "epic" gear could solo just about any non-raid content?
Me, I guess I could solo Uldaman at best, hunters can solo Maraudon up to Princess, but that's more of a class thing.
But try sending any lvl 60, no matter what gear and class, into Strathholme, Scholomance, etc.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: RBachman
Ever have a rl or online friend in different caliber gear who wanted to go through some content with you? Ever watched in a mixture of awe and disgust as, solo, he plowed through content challenging to an entire group of people the same level but in your kind of gear, or tried to fight off sleep as you were in that position yourself? As I said, PoP's (and later) greatly increased gear gap put up walls between friends and smashed family guilds, and in large part killed the game by turning raiding from something to do into the only thing to do. The gap in WoW isn't as big or as game-changing, though if it's this bad at release it can only get worse and end up larger than EQ's in a shorter timeframe. It's one of very many things I don't like about the game - but this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Can't say I see a problem with gearing in WoW.
Sure, in 1vs1 PvP it'll make a huge difference, but for PvE content, it doesn't make anyone superhuman.

My main is a lvl 60 warr decked out in mostly epic gear, and I might(doubtful though) be able to solo one lvl 60 Elite from DM, but that's about it.
Of course, I never played EQ so I don't have the hindsight that you guys do, but it sounds to me like people decked out in EQ's "epic" gear could solo just about any non-raid content?
Me, I guess I could solo Uldaman at best, hunters can solo Maraudon up to Princess, but that's more of a class thing.
But try sending any lvl 60, no matter what gear and class, into Strathholme, Scholomance, etc.

To equate it to EQ... Imagine WoW 2-3 years and 2-3 expansions from now. Imagine raid-obtained gear with ~75 to each stat, a bunch of direct hp and mana on it (200 each, or so), and say... 20 to each resist. Now imagine that if you don't do 40-80 man raids, the best gear for you is still the class set from strat/scholo/brs (Valor, for warriors). That's what EQ was like. Granted though, WoW is somewhat less gear-dependant than EQ.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Sunner
Can't say I see a problem with gearing in WoW.
Sure, in 1vs1 PvP it'll make a huge difference, but for PvE content, it doesn't make anyone superhuman.

My main is a lvl 60 warr decked out in mostly epic gear, and I might(doubtful though) be able to solo one lvl 60 Elite from DM, but that's about it.
Of course, I never played EQ so I don't have the hindsight that you guys do, but it sounds to me like people decked out in EQ's "epic" gear could solo just about any non-raid content?
Me, I guess I could solo Uldaman at best, hunters can solo Maraudon up to Princess, but that's more of a class thing.
But try sending any lvl 60, no matter what gear and class, into Strathholme, Scholomance, etc.

To equate it to EQ... Imagine WoW 2-3 years and 2-3 expansions from now. Imagine raid-obtained gear with ~75 to each stat, a bunch of direct hp and mana on it (200 each, or so), and say... 20 to each resist. Now imagine that if you don't do 40-80 man raids, the best gear for you is still the class set from strat/scholo/brs (Valor, for warriors). That's what EQ was like. Granted though, WoW is somewhat less gear-dependant than EQ.

So basically they kept making raiding gear better while never doing anything for people who don't wanna do 40 man raids?
So far I've gotten the impression that Blizzard wants to avoid this.
Valor sucks for pretty much everything, but there's some really good gear to be had outside MC/BWL/Onyxia, between the stuff you can get from reputation in the battlegrounds, and stuff in ZG and future such instances(supposedly coming a 10 man instance that'll be similar to ZG in difficulty) a non-MC+ equipped warr can put up a good fight to anyone(well no, not to druids).

Time will tell I guess.

 

[Zerohm]

Originally posted by: Sunner

So basically they kept making raiding gear better while never doing anything for people who don't wanna do 40 man raids?
So far I've gotten the impression that Blizzard wants to avoid this.
Valor sucks for pretty much everything, but there's some really good gear to be had outside MC/BWL/Onyxia, between the stuff you can get from reputation in the battlegrounds, and stuff in ZG and future such instances(supposedly coming a 10 man instance that'll be similar to ZG in difficulty) a non-MC+ equipped warr can put up a good fight to anyone(well no, not to druids).

Time will tell I guess.

Yeah, Blizzard has had the advantage of copying what worked in EQ, and avoiding what over-saturated it. Too bad Sony can't do the same. They just can't avoid shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[ubercaffeinated]

I've played this game for about 130 days played time. It's fun. But as much fun it is, it's a drug, (not to mention a huge huge huge timesink). I gave up my character, even though he was fully decked out (warrior with Ashkandi, 'nuff said). I'm suffering withdrawals but I'm reclaiming my life!

The thing I noticed after quitting this game was... there's not that many good PC games out... Sure there are some good stuff, but, I don't know I don't get the same high like I did from WoW. Which goes back to WoW being a drug: I pay for it, and I have to do more and more of it to get the same fun out of it.

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: makoto00
I've played this game for about 130 days played time. It's fun. But as much fun it is, it's a drug, (not to mention a huge huge huge timesink). I gave up my character, even though he was fully decked out (warrior with Ashkandi, 'nuff said). I'm suffering withdrawals but I'm reclaiming my life!

The thing I noticed after quitting this game was... there's not that many good PC games out... Sure there are some good stuff, but, I don't know I don't get the same high like I did from WoW. Which goes back to WoW being a drug: I pay for it, and I have to do more and more of it to get the same fun out of it.

Ding ding ding!

I feel the same way. There hasn't been a game that I have been truly PSYCHED about since...hrm, probably HL2. That was bittersweet, as I don't feel the game was as great as the first. Still fun and I loved playing it, but just not all the way there like playing HL the first time was.

Since then, I've bought a handful of games but nothing has had that "WOW" factor (and I don't mean that as in World of Warcraft). B&W2, meh. Civ 4, meh. COD2 is probably the best of the games I've played in recent months, but already that's gathering dust. I just keep going back to the tried and true. WOW and some CS:S and DOD:S. Once and awhile I fire up some Doom 3 or HL2.

Even after a year of playing, I still enjoy WOW. However, I still haven't even made 60 with one character yet (just hit 57 with my priest!).

 

[theMan]

i dunno, i dont really like that kind of game at all. but my friend is obcessed with it, he has played it constantly for a year. i just dont get it.

 

[BigPoppa]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: RBachman
Ever have a rl or online friend in different caliber gear who wanted to go through some content with you? Ever watched in a mixture of awe and disgust as, solo, he plowed through content challenging to an entire group of people the same level but in your kind of gear, or tried to fight off sleep as you were in that position yourself? As I said, PoP's (and later) greatly increased gear gap put up walls between friends and smashed family guilds, and in large part killed the game by turning raiding from something to do into the only thing to do. The gap in WoW isn't as big or as game-changing, though if it's this bad at release it can only get worse and end up larger than EQ's in a shorter timeframe. It's one of very many things I don't like about the game - but this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Can't say I see a problem with gearing in WoW.
Sure, in 1vs1 PvP it'll make a huge difference, but for PvE content, it doesn't make anyone superhuman.

My main is a lvl 60 warr decked out in mostly epic gear, and I might(doubtful though) be able to solo one lvl 60 Elite from DM, but that's about it.
Of course, I never played EQ so I don't have the hindsight that you guys do, but it sounds to me like people decked out in EQ's "epic" gear could solo just about any non-raid content?
Me, I guess I could solo Uldaman at best, hunters can solo Maraudon up to Princess, but that's more of a class thing.
But try sending any lvl 60, no matter what gear and class, into Strathholme, Scholomance, etc.

To equate it to EQ... Imagine WoW 2-3 years and 2-3 expansions from now. Imagine raid-obtained gear with ~75 to each stat, a bunch of direct hp and mana on it (200 each, or so), and say... 20 to each resist. Now imagine that if you don't do 40-80 man raids, the best gear for you is still the class set from strat/scholo/brs (Valor, for warriors). That's what EQ was like. Granted though, WoW is somewhat less gear-dependant than EQ.

Wow (no pun intended). 75 to stamina alone would be 750hp. Think that one out much? 2-3 years into EQ, the highest stats were velious/luclin. So 125hp to an item and um...50 stat to one item (Katana of Pain from NToV. +50stam, no other stats added). RB also doesn't mention that EQ had hardcapped/softcapped stats until the PoP expansion was released.

To Sunner:
Casual gear continued to scale at the same rate that raid gear scaled. A top geared tank in EQ is 20k hitpoints and 3100 armor fully buffed. A top geared casual tank is 15khp and 25-2700ish armor. RBachman hasn't played EQ for hmm, 4? expansions now. His info is quite outdated.

 

[CKent]

At release WoW had gear with 30 or more sta (300 or more hp). EQ didn't come close at release. These are two very different games, and my guess at 75 sta isn't "out there" at all for WoW; in fact gear could very well have more than that in 2-3 years.

What do EQ's stat caps have to do with it? Looks like you're contradicting yourself again; first you say primal velium weapons were uber for proccing avatar (what was it, 75 to each stat? It's been so long I forget), then you mention the stat caps and the diminishing returns they imposed on stats... Regardless, PoP gave the raiders killer stat gear and a means of making said stats worthwhile, how does that help your argument?

Casual gear did not scale at all. The best casual-obtainable gear was often 2-3 expansions old, and what few upgrades came along were scantily better than the old stuff, if at all. Take the Heirophant's Cloak for example, 4 to each stat and 75hp/mana. From RoK, an expansion released in 2000, it was the best non-raid cloak until LDoN, a 2003 expansion and the second one after PoP. White Dragon Helm & Boots, from the 2001 expansion SoV, same deal. Oh, but PoP gave us some upgrades! The best chestpiece had been matchless dragonhide, with 90hp/mana, x to each stat and y to each resist - but Farwater had 30 more hp, for which it sacrificed mana, resists and stats! Uber upgrade there! These were the very best buyable items btw, rare stuff which commanded a very high price. Few could afford them; most had even worse gear in comparison to raiders. Meanwhile raid gear went from having 100hp on it to having 300; from having no effect or one effect to having 3-4 effects, from having a few moderate stats and resists to having all stats and resists, and a lot of each.

I'm sure you mean well BP, but your perspective is that of not just a raiding warrior, but from the sound of it one of your guild's top tank choices. As in WoW, warriors were heavily gear dependant in EQ - moreso actually, since EQ was a more gear-oriented game. Thus, DKP aside, you were likely even given extras to make you a better tank for your guild. You haven't the foggiest clue what EQ was like for the non-raider. Not even close.

Whether I've played recently or not is unimportant; we're discussing the game as it was in various and specific time periods, which we've made note of.

 

[BigPoppa]

I haven't the foggiest clue of what WoW (Edit: er, EQ...yeah) was like for a non hardcore raider? Try being near the top of the game during Luclin, playing off and on for periods of 3-6 months, quitting before GoD comes out, and coming back...2 or 3 expansions later. Know what I found? A plethora of content suited for me to come up in. Maybe because I knew what it took to get the gear at the top of the game and came back way below the top of the game I have a different perspective. Casuals all too often want a free handout. Then they see that they can't possible obtain gear close to what the top end raiders get and throw a fit. Grow up. Casuals can obtain gear much faster than I ever could in the RAID game. The casual tank I pointed out above can tank ANY single group content in the game. Any. All. Hell, he can tank well into GoD and OoW raid zones.

My gear after coming back to the game and playing for about 3 months: http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1190127 few pieces of PoTime gear from a twink raid with some friends in one of the top guilds. (copy/paste, in quick reply mode, no easy linkage) before that I was in full skyshrine (myrmidon) gear with a smattering of ntov/tunare/aow drops. Can I be angry that its possible for a casual to easily surpass the gear from a previous top raid zone? No more than a casual can be mad that a raider can obtain better gear from the current raid zones.

As to the stat caps:
STR/STA et al had a cap of 255 as you know. Avatar: 100 to STR/AGI/DEX/ATK. Attack has a hard cap too. Impossible to reach in the velious days, the cap was 250 worn attack, which avatar added to even though it was a proc. Would have had to have aura of battle in every slot to break it. My stats weren't even near capped, so primal during that time brought everything but agility to max. I'm thinking I gained about 250 to 300 attack from primal. With a resting atk of ~1100, you do the damn math. As I said, THE most gamebreaking items ever added. You could make an argument for the cleric epic also.

 

[CKent]

- You completely ignored my biggest point. Again.
- I've gone over my feelings on nu-casuals already in this post, and here you are calling me one... how much of this have you read?
- Again, I'm not talking about the game post-GoD - how could I? I quit when it was released and haven't looked back since. All I can do is guess at how bad it's gotten, knowing how incompetent, greedy and malicious Sony is.

There's a large group of people who feel their ~$15/month entitles them to the best gear in the game. The term for these people is "lazy", even if they often like to hide under the casual umbrella. Regardless, I'm neither. I was a 1750 tradeskiller. Combined with profits from tradeskilling, I spent enough time trading to be wearing the best droppable gear in the game, almost 4k hp on a non-raiding shaman during PoP, FT 9. I had all the toys as well; AoN, Holgresh elder beads, a manastone, a prenerf fungi staff... It got to the point where I didn't know what to do with it all, and so made a SK twink. He also got all the toys... fungi tunic, earthshaker, another manastone, prenerf cos... My trader character, who I ran 24/7 on a second account, was so ubiquitous that a friend who still plays asked me just the other day if I had started back up... why? He saw a trader with the same name as my old trader, same gender and race as well... It's been nearly two years since I quit... That is not casual, any way you look at it

I don't care for raiding, pretty simple. I don't want raid gear, I'm well aware of what it takes to get it and feel it should be better than what you can get on your own or with a group. It shouldn't be that much better though, for reasons I've gone over. It would have been nice to have the potential to advance my character. Expansion after expansion with gobs of raid content was released, gear increased 200% in power - and my best options were the same choices I'd had for the past three years - what do you not understand about this? Getting 1750 kept me busy for a while, but after that I just didn't see the point anymore, and that's when I quit.