Doesnt World of Warcraft Suck?

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Busithoth

Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy
Monthly fee? Of course it sucks.

How's that one-time payment for your cable/satellite coming? Your internet connection?

How about your cell phone? I mean, you already bought the damn phone, now they want to charge you for using their servers, antennas, towers, customer service, technicians, etc? Bastards! :roll:

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: TGS
I don't understand the must lose all mentality with *real* MMOs. Why must your progress be halted or brought back a few notches upon failure of any given task? Losing items permanently and XP penalties? That seems like additional grind for things that can be out of your control. When I tried EQ2 I just wanted to do my own thing to get used to game mechanics and see how to fleshed out. I basically soloed most of the way to 20 and got my beserker going. I took my newly minted beserker into whatever the next area for 20+ characters was, and was promptly smote down by single even con mobs. Prior to 20 I could take down an even and possibly an add. Once I moved into the next tier of enemies I had to rearrange attack patterns and go into each fight completely buffed or else I would get my rear handed to me. Now granted this wasn't any extravagent loot mobs, just some run of the mill quest and I could barely pull it off solo. Why can't I do my own quests solo? The reward for finishing was nothing more than a continuation quest. From all this trial and error on how to defeat the "new" tier of enemies I built up a tidy sum of penalized XP. Which is turn forced me to have to kill more mobs, to get back to where I started..? Somehow my defeat at the hands of my enemies makes me a worse fighter...? I've never understood that. I don't know what's worse, the XP penalties, or trying to hunt for single mob encounters.

Your post doesn't note it and I'm hoping you realized this, but EQ2 has a tiered system. There are different mobs at the same level, similar to how WoW has regular, silver and then gold elite mobs. EQ2's has more tiers I believe although I can't remember the exact nomenclature. I do agree with you that EQ2 has a rediculous number of continuation quests, to an almost silly degree (quests that just say ok good, now go do this).

I made it to level 26 and my friends made it into the 30s in EQ2 before we got bored. I believe it was around the time BF2 or some other extremely fun game came out.

 

[skinsfan44]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: skinsfan44
5 year EQ1 player that quit to move to WoW. Played since Beta, made 60, did the raid thing. Game lost my interest totally. I gave EQ2 a shot when it first came out, and quickly put it away to play WoW. However, I have been back in EQ2 for the past two months and I am having a blast. Sony made some real nice changes. the payer base is so much more mature...it will surely hold me over until Vanguard comes out.

I really think there is something to be said about difficulty and a feeling of accomplishment. I never had a feeling of accomplishment in WoW, nor a rush from going someplace to high a level for me... the game was just to easy and had no risk.

I don't understand the must lose all mentality with *real* MMOs. Why must your progress be halted or brought back a few notches upon failure of any given task? Losing items permanently and XP penalties? That seems like additional grind for things that can be out of your control. When I tried EQ2 I just wanted to do my own thing to get used to game mechanics and see how to fleshed out. I basically soloed most of the way to 20 and got my beserker going. I took my newly minted beserker into whatever the next area for 20+ characters was, and was promptly smote down by single even con mobs. Prior to 20 I could take down an even and possibly an add. Once I moved into the next tier of enemies I had to rearrange attack patterns and go into each fight completely buffed or else I would get my rear handed to me. Now granted this wasn't any extravagent loot mobs, just some run of the mill quest and I could barely pull it off solo. Why can't I do my own quests solo? The reward for finishing was nothing more than a continuation quest. From all this trial and error on how to defeat the "new" tier of enemies I built up a tidy sum of penalized XP. Which is turn forced me to have to kill more mobs, to get back to where I started..? Somehow my defeat at the hands of my enemies makes me a worse fighter...? I've never understood that. I don't know what's worse, the XP penalties, or trying to hunt for single mob encounters.

First off, I assume you haven't played EQ2 recently. The death penalty is practically nil. After recovering your corpse, it literally takes 10 minutes to get back the XP debt. Also, they have instituted a vitality feature, similar to WoW, that grants you extra XP if you don't play often... I guess in an attempt to help you keep up with friends that play 24/7. I am unaware of anyway in which you can loose your equipment. Further, there are now numerous solo mobs. I have completed over 130 quests (they are tracked), and all but 5 or so have been solo. I think either the game changed substantially since you played, or you were a really bad Beserker j/k

Now on to the big question. I guess the answer is different strokes for different folks. I want a MMORPG that immerses me... makes me feel like I am actually the toon I am playing. I want the world around me to be alive and present dangers. If I choose to take a risk and fail, I don't mind a small punishment as it is similar to real life. Start a fight with someone that can kick your arse, and you will end up hurt, but wiser. Learn from your mistakes and you get a feel of accomplishment when you are able to take down a mob that smacked you around the first time you fought it. To me, it is all about risk and reward. WoW has no risk, and I never really felt rewarded... even when I did get my full suit of class armor or became exalted in AV. Immersion and the risk presented by the world never showed its face to me. It was all so casual, and could be accomplished by anyone. Nothing seemed to set players apart.

Thinking back to EQ1, the run from Qeynos to Freeport at level 8 was a rush. i knew I was doing something that was dangerous for my level, and if I died, I would lose XP and be presented with a difficult corpse recovery. However, the rush I had doing it was worth it. The first time we dropped Vindi, of the first time in Vex Thal or the Plane of Time- all rushes that I never got in WoW. I am having some of the same fun in EQ2, but too low a level to hit any of the cool dungeons yet, so we will see.

I really believe the Brad McQuaid has something with the risk versus reward thing that kept players hooked; constantly dangling the carrot, and oh did it taste good when you finally got it. This isn't news to anyone, but I guess there are two types of gamers in the MMORPG world- hard-core and casual. We see the demand of the casual gamer in WoW. the longevity of such a game remains to be seen. In 5 years, will the same folks still be playing WoW like the were in EQ? My guess is no. Lets see if Brad can capture the old magic with Vanguard. I tried to explain why more of a challenge appeals to me, but probably failed, but I guess different strokes for different folks is the answer.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: skinsfan44
WoW has no risk, and I never really felt rewarded... even when I did get my full suit of class armor or became exalted in AV. Immersion and the risk presented by the world never showed its face to me. It was all so casual, and could be accomplished by anyone. Nothing seemed to set players apart.

I didn't post when you first stated this, but I'll bite this time, It's simply not true. For one, there wasn't a single guild that could run stratholme with 5 people when it came out. Nor was anyone doing the same for Scholomance, both dungeons that were not originally intended for raids. It was only until they were modified and player caps were limited that this was enforced. Albeit, I believe they set the cap for both these zones to 10 instead of 5 due to the fact that they didn't want to completely eliminate anyone from running the zones.

Likewise, when MC came out, nearly every guild was getting stomped before even getting to Magmadar. It was only until after they nerfed 90% of the zone that guilds started getting through the content. Similar things have occured in BWL, everyone bitched the encounters were unbeatable and they are getting nerfed too.

I question anyone who says WoW is too easy, because there is a 99.9% chance that they did not even challenge themselves in the majority of the encounters. I only wish they had been more strict on person limits per instances and had it enforced since day 1 and that they never nerfed MC/BWL/Onyxia.

 

[TGS]

I am aware of the tiered enemy system. I was fighting some run of the mill crabs and snakes for a fresh level 20 quest. The point being was, the enemies start to use new attacks, such as a stun attack. I had to figure out when they were going to pop their stun attack and use mine prior. Like I said, I'm very much into figuring out game mechanics on my own, so I must have died 3-4 times. At even a modest 10 minute recovery per death thats heading on to an hour of *extra* grinding to get back to my previous spot.

Of course it's easy to go the route and say I'm just a newb and have no clue on how to play, but I can't recall the name, but the triple up dragon in the main area was pretty much the only thing I couldn't get a group to take down. Though that was pretty well out of my level range to begin with. The only thing the crabs brought to the table was more damage, and a stunning move which just allowed them to pound on me until it wore off. Pardon me while I'm impressed with an incapicatating move.

For me, I'm all about skill in games. Which is why I love playing FPS games. You hone your skills and you have to be better than your opponent. Most MMOs have opponents that require a particular formula to beat. Once you learn that particular process, the entire event becomes boring. The only way for an MMO to become truly dynamic would be to put players in control of key portions of the game. Then you wouldn't be able to figure out some walk through to beating xxx boss.

Grinding doesn't excite me, it's just a means to the *end*. Figuring out that mob A.25 uses a stun attack at 25% instead of 5% isn't getting me off my rocker either. Honestly out of everything what I liked about WoW the most, was the drastically different and unique environments. Certainly some of the outdoor towers, and caves were *exactly* the same with perhaps a new coat of paint on the next. The instances, were a whole seperate entity that had it's own character. I stil like going into new areas, just to see the architectures come alive. You really feel IMO, that you are invading on an enemy territory for the purpose of taking down the leaders. Sure, once you figure out all the plays, it's a nonevent, but the first time through an area is always pretty interesting. That's something I never really got with EQ2, or even UO. Though for UO, I keep mainly to the newb areas or I would get PKed outside of the city limits... newbie fun there. Oh now I can spend time running to my body... Wee...

I still don't see how you can define a casual game to a hardcore game. Either should have the qualities, as the developers make the content for both player base.

I actually did give EQ2 a second try. I went with a mage the second time around. I outfitted him with the latest and greatest my beserker could afford. I spent a good deal of my time on tradeskills. I was a fairly decent leveled scribe. I started to make the adept level spells, and after buying a ton of books to start some good business I realized that the adept spells required rare elements that would require even more grinding then for apprentice levels, or huge amounts of gold to purchase them outright. IE grind for upgrades. So I have to tradeskill grind, grind for my trade guild, level grind, and I haven't even started on quests yet... I found that up to a point my apprentice level 4 spells served me quite well. Though once again I hit the limit of those spells, and saw that yet more grinding would be required to match the foes I was fighting. I'm talking about hours of just tradeskill work for my spells. Sure it made good coin, but I didn't level up character wise. Sitting in front of a chemistry table for hours is not exactly mind blowing fun for me. It did take me a bit to figure out the best crafting process, but seeing as how the amount of energy spent is a flat percentage, you could craft just as easily as a level 1, than as a level 60. Though by not leveling character wise, I restricted myself to lower materials for tradeskill. *shrug*

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: RBachman
I average 150-200ms ping and have a 10mbit connection (e-peen++). I know the difference between 3d rendering lag and serverside lag, and WoW has a ton of the latter. It only happens during prime time and on weekends, which makes it pretty obvious, I think, that the servers are insufficient for the demand. Regardless, I wasn't afforded the luxury of switching around even if it would help, as most of my friends from EQ and RL all decided on a specific server.

90% of WoW lag relates back to the centralized item database servers. I'm not saying that lag doesn't exist, but I am saying it has existed in every MMORPG that I've ever played. Pretending it is a purely WoW related issue is silly. UO had the worst lag ever created, I couldn't even run around most days on catskills, infact lag was the original reason I quit the game. Everquest had crazy bouts with lag and crashing that caused a great number of raid routines, casters facing walls, camp-saves, the rediculous all red lag meter showing some crazy ping time that would reach into the thousands.

I played EQ for years. I never claimed lag didn't exist in it and other games, but it is a matter of course in WoW. There is a 4-6 hour window every day during which auctions and mail have a significant delay. Selling items to vendors is always delayed. Servers go on the fritz and need to be rebooted on average once a week. Just last week our MC raid was cut short due to half of it being booted and being unable to log back in. The lag in WoW is worse by far than in any other game I've played. What's particularly annoying is that the problem is obvious, and WoW being the huge success it is, it wouldn't cost them much, comparatively, to address it.

ps - WoW is also the only MMOG with login queues.

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Busithoth

Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy
Monthly fee? Of course it sucks.

How's that one-time payment for your cable/satellite coming? Your internet connection?

How about your cell phone? I mean, you already bought the damn phone, now they want to charge you for using their servers, antennas, towers, customer service, technicians, etc? Bastards! :roll:

There's no reasoning with them, Mommy wouldn't pay WoW's monthly fee and they have a serious bone to pick. Just let them stew, it's fun to watch

 

[CKent]

I have a big problem with the term "casual" gamer. Certainly some people have less time to play than others, that's not the issue - it's the entitlement everyone feels - "I want something, but don't want to work for it, and I pay $15 a month so I better get it!!!" - It really disgusts me. These are the types who purchase game money, items and even accounts. What's so sad is that they're missing the entire point of the game; to explore a world they haven't seen before and take on new challenges in it. My fondest memories in MMORPGs were being lower level, a small guy in a huge, mysterious, dangerous and thoroughly immersive and enchanting world just waiting for me to explore it. Having bad/no gear, having to decide which spells I wanted because I couldn't afford them all. For these "casuals" though, that's "2 hrd". They have <job / wife / kids / etc> and don't have the time! Poor them! Give me everything, waaaaahhh!! MMORPGs aren't for everyone, and "casuals" obviously would do better to stick to CounterStrike. It's like seeing someone who loves pizza but hates burgers and fries walk past a pizzeria and enter a burger king looking for a meal, then complain incessantly that they don't like the food. If you can't just enjoy the ride no matter where along the advancement path you are, the genre is not for you.

Edit: to be fair, I can sympathise with some casuals - not because I'm not a hardcore player (I am), but because I dislike raiding. The problem? Raid gear is 5 times better than anything else you can get in the game in any other way. What I liked most about EQ before the Planes of Power expansion was the fact you could advance in a number of ways. Every class had an epic weapon quest. Other rewarding quests were available, such as the Coldain Shawl and the "Iksar epics". Tradeskills were very, very difficult - but also very rewarding. A friend of mine who played a lot was only level 57 when I quit (when Gates of Discord was released) - but was a 1750 tradeskiller and had some nice gear to show for it, both crafted and purchased with profits.

Pre-Planes, raid gear was a little better, and offered a reward for those who liked to raid - but nothing to make "casuals" stew with envy. Now - and WoW copied this - it makes its wearers Gods in comparison to other people. People either are (rightly) upset at this gear gap and complain... or, like me, raid even though they hate it because of the gear lure. The game is too shallow to incorporate other paths to fulfillment.

Originally posted by: skace
I question anyone who says WoW is too easy, because there is a 99.9% chance that they did not even challenge themselves in the majority of the encounters. I only wish they had been more strict on person limits per instances and had it enforced since day 1 and that they never nerfed MC/BWL/Onyxia.

I've stated that it's too easy, and stand by it. Yes, there is some challenging content, that wasn't what I was referring to. What I mean is that it takes a few weeks to get to 60, and you don't have to have the foggiest idea of what you're doing to do it. In EQ a level 60 being a good player was a given. In WoW it's the exception. Tradeskills likewise take nothing to master.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman
I have a big problem with the term "casual" gamer. Certainly some people have less time to play than others, that's not the issue - it's the entitlement everyone feels - "I want something, but don't want to work for it, and I pay $15 a month so I better get it!!!" - It really disgusts me. These are the types who purchase game money, items and even accounts. What's so sad is that they're missing the entire point of the game; to explore a world they haven't seen before and take on new challenges in it. My fondest memories in MMORPGs were being lower level, a small guy in a huge, mysterious, dangerous and thoroughly immersive and enchanting world just waiting for me to explore it. For these "casuals" though, that's "2 hrd". They have <job / wife / kids / etc> and don't have the time! Poor them! Give me everything, waaaaahhh!! MMORPGs aren't for everyone, and "casuals" obviously would do better to stick to CounterStrike. It's like seeing someone who loves pizza but hates burgers and fries walk past a pizzeria and enter a burger king looking for a meal, then complain incessantly that they don't like the food.

As 'casual gamers' (my wife and I play an hour or 2 in the evenings, and 3-4 on the weekends, or sometimes not at all,) we both realize we'll not being wearing any epic sets, or running BWL or ZG, or MC, for that matter. There's no sense of entitlement here. We're both perfectly aware that we'll not see ~30% of the game content and are fine with that, as are most 'casual gamers' that we play with.

But your own logic could be turned on you. Just as bad as this "entitlement" mentallity you see, is this "elitist" one. The one that says "Wahhh.. I played for 400 hours in the course of a single month and finally got my uber legendary weapon of destruction , but it doesn't automatically mean I can instantaneously crush anyone who doesn't have it. It's not fair that I can put in 1000% more time into the game, and only get equipment that is 30% better than that of the average player."

Those that think because they are already "ahead" of others, they should receive additional in-game benefits on top of the ones they have, in some sort of exponentially-increasing fashion. Those are people who are missing the point - that there is not some "end" or "pinnacle" to the MMORPG game that they can reach by simply playing 14 hours a day.

The point of these games is to progress at whatever rate is enjoyable to you, accepting the limitation of your rewards based on your level of play. Whining about either extreme, whether it be about those that play "too little" or those that play "too much" is pointless.

It's like seeing someone who loves pizza but hates burgers and fries walk past a pizzeria and enter a burger king looking for a meal, then complain incessantly that they don't like the food.

Exactly, only applied to complainers. If you wanted an "uber-MMORPG," with a high entry-level and steep learning curve, why the hell would you pick up a game that was touted as the exact opposite? I bought WoW because of its claim to be a game for the "casual player." I bought it because it had no real "death penalty. I bought it because of the rested XP bonus and no need for mob camping. WoW was marketed as the "everyone MMORPG." If you didn't want that, you should have stuck to your DAoC or whatever, without daring to complain about low player population.

The job of a business is to make money. They can do it either by low-margins and huge quantity, or they can have a small customer base, but convince them that their product if worth a large enough price to make up for it. It's McDonald's vs Le Manoir Aux Quat'Saison. The local strip-mall vs Avenue des Champs Elysées. You pick your own poison and you live with your choice. You don't ask the Louis Vuitton store to put in a bounce house for your 6 kids, and you don't ask Burger King for a bottle of Montrachet 1978 from Domaine de la Romanée-Conti to go with your burger.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: RBachman
I have a big problem with the term "casual" gamer. Certainly some people have less time to play than others, that's not the issue - it's the entitlement everyone feels - "I want something, but don't want to work for it, and I pay $15 a month so I better get it!!!" - It really disgusts me. These are the types who purchase game money, items and even accounts. What's so sad is that they're missing the entire point of the game; to explore a world they haven't seen before and take on new challenges in it. My fondest memories in MMORPGs were being lower level, a small guy in a huge, mysterious, dangerous and thoroughly immersive and enchanting world just waiting for me to explore it. For these "casuals" though, that's "2 hrd". They have <job / wife / kids / etc> and don't have the time! Poor them! Give me everything, waaaaahhh!! MMORPGs aren't for everyone, and "casuals" obviously would do better to stick to CounterStrike. It's like seeing someone who loves pizza but hates burgers and fries walk past a pizzeria and enter a burger king looking for a meal, then complain incessantly that they don't like the food.

As 'casual gamers' (my wife and I play an hour or 2 in the evenings, and 3-4 on the weekends, or sometimes not at all,) we both realize we'll not being wearing any epic sets, or running BWL or ZG, or MC, for that matter. There's no sense of entitlement here. We're both perfectly aware that we'll not see ~30% of the game content and are fine with that, as are most 'casual gamers' that we play with.

But your own logic could be turned on you. Just as bad as this "entitlement" mentallity you see, is this "elitist" one. The one that says "Wahhh.. I played for 400 hours in the course of a single month and finally got my uber legendary weapon of destruction , but it doesn't automatically mean I can instantaneously crush anyone who doesn't have it. It's not fair that I can put in 1000% more time into the game, and only get equipment that is 30% better than that of the average player."

Those that think because they are already "ahead" of others, they should receive additional in-game benefits on top of the ones they have, in some sort of exponentially-increasing fashion. Those are people who are missing the point - that there is not some "end" or "pinnacle" to the MMORPG game that they can reach by simply playing 14 hours a day.

The point of these games is to progress at whatever rate is enjoyable to you, accepting the limitation of your rewards based on your level of play. Whining about either extreme, whether it be about those that play "too little" or those that play "too much" is pointless.

You may term yourself a casual gamer, but you don't fit into the description of them which I used - you're simply a player who plays less than or as much as the average player. It's the whiners who want something for nothing labelling themselves casuals that are giving casuals a bad name. Fully agree with your synopsis on elitism as well, EQ was at its best when it was at its most openended and, as I said, when raid gear was a little better than other stuff, but not game-breakingly so - maybe 25% on average. We used to joke around about "winning" the game. Now you really can do so, and it sucks

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I think it's fine. I enjoy playing it. If you think it sucks, maybe it's just not your type of game? I think finding a good guild has a lot to do with the enjoyment you get out of it. I can imagine it being pretty boring and/or frustrating if you're either guildless or in a crappy guild. Once you hit level 60 there's nothing left to do unless you just want to farm crap to sell and make a bunch of gold. But if you're guildless or in a crappy guild the high level instances are pretty much off limits to you. No random pickup group is going to be successful in an instance like Zul'Gurub... that takes A LOT of teamwork and cooperation.

I'm in an excellent guild. I don't really like the game because of the reasons I've already stated. A good guild is not the answer.

I was also in an excellent guild (actually top 20 across all servers).

We killed nefarion 4 times before i quit.

And your computer sucking is not the lag im referring to, im referring to doing a search on the auction house, and it taking 5-10 minutes to complete that simple search.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Exactly, only applied to complainers. If you wanted an "uber-MMORPG," with a high entry-level and steep learning curve, why the hell would you pick up a game that was touted as the exact opposite? I bought WoW because of its claim to be a game for the "casual player." I bought it because it had no real "death penalty. I bought it because of the rested XP bonus and no need for mob camping. WoW was marketed as the "everyone MMORPG." If you didn't want that, you should have stuck to your DAoC or whatever, without daring to complain about low player population.

I'm not complaining about the game, I'm offering my opinion in a thread where the OP asked for it. Keep in mind my very first words in this post - "Well... The game itself is good.". To take my analogy further, there IS no pizzeria; there IS no complex and immersive MMORPG out there in a fantasy setting.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
And your computer sucking is not the lag im referring to, im referring to doing a search on the auction house, and it taking 5-10 minutes to complete that simple search.

Are you talking to me? That's exactly what I'm referring to; server-side lag.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Exactly, only applied to complainers. If you wanted an "uber-MMORPG," with a high entry-level and steep learning curve, why the hell would you pick up a game that was touted as the exact opposite? I bought WoW because of its claim to be a game for the "casual player." I bought it because it had no real "death penalty. I bought it because of the rested XP bonus and no need for mob camping. WoW was marketed as the "everyone MMORPG." If you didn't want that, you should have stuck to your DAoC or whatever, without daring to complain about low player population.

I'm not complaining about the game, I'm offering my opinion in a thread where the OP asked for it. To take my analogy further, there IS no pizzeria; there IS no complex and immersive MMORPG out there in a fantasy setting.

I didn't necessaily mean "you," per se, but just those that complain so much in general. WoW is exactly what it was advertised itself to be. To bitch and moan that it's not something that it never intended to be is pointless, IMO.

 

[Acanthus]

yeah wow is great for the casual player, ever play against a guild made of people with no jobs/life?

Thers plenty of them out there, play AB against people in full epics and see how "casual friendly" it is when you cant possibly win without pumping 1000+ hours into your char.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
yeah wow is great for the casual player, ever play against a guild made of people with no jobs/life?

Thers plenty of them out there, play AB against people in full epics and see how "casual friendly" it is when you cant possibly win without pumping 1000+ hours into your char.

You make a good point about the huge gear gap I mentioned earlier. PvP is only one way in which it hurts MMOGs.

 

[Agnostos Insania]

I'm also not sure I agree with the whole "hardcore vs. casual" gamer thing. I guess I'm sort of a mix of both. I refuse to spend 50 hours to get a better virtual item but if I'm having fun I can end up playing for 8 hours straight.
I like a sense of danger in an inhospitable world full of monsters and evil people. I hate the whole "lose no items, invisible forcefield makes everyone play nice" thing. If someone's being an ass I want to be be able to kill him and cut his head off to mount on my wall in my virtual house. Darkfall is going to have that like in old UO, yay!

Originally posted by: TGS
For me, I'm all about skill in games. Which is why I love playing FPS games. You hone your skills and you have to be better than your opponent. Most MMOs have opponents that require a particular formula to beat. Once you learn that particular process, the entire event becomes boring. The only way for an MMO to become truly dynamic would be to put players in control of key portions of the game. Then you wouldn't be able to figure out some walk through to beating xxx boss.

You should give Darkfall a shot if it's released. It goes along with most of your post, except your dislike of PKing. The devs are going for a niche market, those that enjoyed old UO basically.

 

[BigPoppa]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: skinsfan44
WoW has no risk, and I never really felt rewarded... even when I did get my full suit of class armor or became exalted in AV. Immersion and the risk presented by the world never showed its face to me. It was all so casual, and could be accomplished by anyone. Nothing seemed to set players apart.

I didn't post when you first stated this, but I'll bite this time, It's simply not true. For one, there wasn't a single guild that could run stratholme with 5 people when it came out. Nor was anyone doing the same for Scholomance, both dungeons that were not originally intended for raids. It was only until they were modified and player caps were limited that this was enforced. Albeit, I believe they set the cap for both these zones to 10 instead of 5 due to the fact that they didn't want to completely eliminate anyone from running the zones.

Likewise, when MC came out, nearly every guild was getting stomped before even getting to Magmadar. It was only until after they nerfed 90% of the zone that guilds started getting through the content. Similar things have occured in BWL, everyone bitched the encounters were unbeatable and they are getting nerfed too.

I question anyone who says WoW is too easy, because there is a 99.9% chance that they did not even challenge themselves in the majority of the encounters. I only wish they had been more strict on person limits per instances and had it enforced since day 1 and that they never nerfed MC/BWL/Onyxia.

Its difficult to find people to 5 man something that you can take more to do. Its even more difficult to find trustworthy people to try to 5-man stuff with. I'm hoping the expansion puts a little tougher restriction on non-raid instances. If an average (i'd assume 50-75% blue gear, possibly more) geared group of 5 has the ability to learn to 5 man a dungeon, the instance should be set at a hard 5-man limit. Bring back some difficulty.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Agnostos Insania
I hate the whole "lose no items, invisible forcefield makes everyone play nice" thing. If someone's being an ass I want to be be able to kill him and cut his head off to mount on my wall in my virtual house. Darkfall is going to have that like in old UO, yay!

Thing is, the asses tend to choose these games & server rulesets. I'm not calling you one, certainly a wide range of people like a wide range of things, just commenting on trends I've observed. If you really want to avoid them...

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I think it's fine. I enjoy playing it. If you think it sucks, maybe it's just not your type of game? I think finding a good guild has a lot to do with the enjoyment you get out of it. I can imagine it being pretty boring and/or frustrating if you're either guildless or in a crappy guild. Once you hit level 60 there's nothing left to do unless you just want to farm crap to sell and make a bunch of gold. But if you're guildless or in a crappy guild the high level instances are pretty much off limits to you. No random pickup group is going to be successful in an instance like Zul'Gurub... that takes A LOT of teamwork and cooperation.

I'm in an excellent guild. I don't really like the game because of the reasons I've already stated. A good guild is not the answer.

I was also in an excellent guild (actually top 20 across all servers).

We killed nefarion 4 times before i quit.

And your computer sucking is not the lag im referring to, im referring to doing a search on the auction house, and it taking 5-10 minutes to complete that simple search.

By "good" guild I didn't necessarily mean a guild with a high ranking. I mean a guild with people that make you want to log in just to do something with them, whether it's something as simple as a Baron run or something that takes as much effort as killing Nefarion. A good guild is a guild that shares the same basic goals as you... whether it's PVP, killing world bosses and doing 40 man raids, acquiring rare items/patterns/recipes, or making boatloads of cash.

A "good" guild is subjective, but being in the right guild for you can make all the difference.

By the way... that simple search of the auction house isn't so simple when you have thousands of users logged in, and hundreds of them making requests to the database server... and some of those people making thousands of requests, like when updating their Auctioneer database. Hundreds more sending mail and trading items and creating items.

Sure, when traffic gets heavy the servers get overloaded... that happens. You'll have a hard time finding a server that's capable of handling 100% of it's clients at any one time. Even your ISP can't handle 100% of it's subscribers being online and all pushing their connection to it's limits. So yeah... some realms are overloaded... what can be done about it? Would you like realms to close when they reach a certain capacity? How would you like being told you CANNOT under any circumstances start a character on a realm that all your friends play on because there's too many people on it even if it can handle more players at off peak hours? Or how bout not being able to log in so that the people who are already logged in don't have any lag? Or how about combine all ~100 realms into one so you can watch your $3000 PC slow to 0.5 frames per second as it draws 20,000 character models as you approach a major city?

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Sure, when traffic gets heavy the servers get overloaded... that happens. You'll have a hard time finding a server that's capable of handling 100% of it's clients at any one time. Even your ISP can't handle 100% of it's subscribers being online and all pushing their connection to it's limits. So yeah... some realms are overloaded... what can be done about it? Would you like realms to close when they reach a certain capacity? How would you like being told you CANNOT under any circumstances start a character on a realm that all your friends play on because there's too many people on it even if it can handle more players at off peak hours? Or how bout not being able to log in so that the people who are already logged in don't have any lag? Or how about combine all ~100 realms into one so you can watch your $3000 PC slow to 0.5 frames per second as it draws 20,000 character models as you approach a major city?

You honestly think one server handles all this? They have scalable rackmount setups. All it would take would be some money to scale them up to the task - a tiny, tiny percentage of those 11 digits a month they're raking in. But they won't. They're as greedy as Sony. :frown:

This isn't a rare problem which occurs once every month or two when everyone and their mother happens to be playing at the same time - the AH lag occupies a 4-6 hour window daily. The mail and vendor lag is 24/7. Imagine M$ serving their website on a T1.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: RBachman
You honestly think one server handles all this?

Of course not... hence my use of the plural word, "servers."

Originally posted by: RBachman
They have scalable rackmount setups. All it would take would be some money to scale them up to the task - a tiny, tiny percentage of those 11 digits a month they're raking in. But they won't. They're as greedy as Sony. :frown:

I think there's a limit as to how big they're willing to make any one realm. I don't think they want one realm with 50,000 players, and another with 500. That would cause problems on the client end... having to display so many different character models and armor models.

Originally posted by: RBachman
This isn't a rare problem which occurs once every month or two when everyone and their mother happens to be playing at the same time - the AH lag occupies a 4-6 hour window daily. The mail and vendor lag is 24/7. Imagine M$ serving their website on a T1.

Blanket statements. I play just about every night during peak hours on Dalaran. During my 4 months or so of playing I've experienced vendor/AH lag maybe a dozen times. Never had a problem with mail.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: RBachman
You honestly think one server handles all this?

Of course not... hence my use of the plural word, "servers."

I was asking if you thought each WoW server was a single machine, and each of the other aspects of the game (chat, AH, mail).

Originally posted by: RBachman
They have scalable rackmount setups. All it would take would be some money to scale them up to the task - a tiny, tiny percentage of those 11 digits a month they're raking in. But they won't. They're as greedy as Sony. :frown:

I think there's a limit as to how big they're willing to make any one realm. I don't think they want one realm with 50,000 players, and another with 500. That would cause problems on the client end... having to display so many different character models and armor models.

The servers' capabilities don't dictate how many join, Blizzard's character creation wizard does. It encourages certain realms and discourages others. I know I had to jump through a few hoops to get back on my server with a new install after a 6-month hiatus, since it had become a high pop realm and they were discouraging new players from joining it.

Originally posted by: RBachman
This isn't a rare problem which occurs once every month or two when everyone and their mother happens to be playing at the same time - the AH lag occupies a 4-6 hour window daily. The mail and vendor lag is 24/7. Imagine M$ serving their website on a T1.

Blanket statements. I play just about every night during peak hours on Dalaran. During my 4 months or so of playing I've experienced vendor/AH lag maybe a dozen times. Never had a problem with mail.

What's your tolerance for lag? You may think nothing of, for instance, clicking search and waiting a few seconds or even minutes while the server queues, processes and returns your request. You may think nothing of selling all your vendor loot and having it all grey out after you click it while you wait on the server. Perhaps you even alt-tab to the forums to defend the game from those evil whiners while you wait Having played other MMORPGs, these things are not acceptable for me.

 

[imported_Technomancer]

Actually its kind of interesting with these games. I don't know how geographical data/play/preferences/security are set up by the developers, but there is potential for people to live off of "farming" in these games by selling $50 worth on ebay each month - subscription costs, particularly if they live somewhere where GDP/c is less than your pocket change. I don't really know what these people are like if they do exist, probably non-conversant and not very social because of language issues.

Just showing that there may be (relatively) lucrative material motivations for people to "farm", not necessarily intending to be asses.

 

[Agnostos Insania]

Originally posted by: RBachman
Thing is, the asses tend to choose these games & server rulesets. I'm not calling you one, certainly a wide range of people like a wide range of things, just commenting on trends I've observed. If you really want to avoid them...

True. I guess I'd rather have more assholes that can be dealt with than having fewer than have immunity. I love the idea of player justice, even if it's quite bleak at times. It really depends on your playstyle and attitude really. Some people will get PKed and quit the game, vowing never to return, others get PKed and organize a group to kill the PKs.

 

[Sunner]

Hmm, Darkfall seems very interesting I must say...

But WoW will do fine until then, I agree that lag is a big issue with WoW though.
Depends a lot on your realm though, I have my mains on one of the highest pop servers in the EU, and an alt on a medium pop server, and I've never had lag problems with the latter.
BWL is troublesome though, we always have people with 2k+ pings, disconnects, freeze lag, etc, ****** annoying when it screws up an entire raid.