Doesnt World of Warcraft Suck?

[Acanthus]

Dont even get me started on the BWL lag.

Everyone on the raid has a 7000ping but its "our network drivers" says wow support through 3 different channels.

Yes thats right, from day to day, without any server patches or hotfixes, my drivers that work fine every other time in every other zone, were the problem.

It couldnt possibly be overloaded servers.

Its disgusting how much money they rake in, and completely fail to fix obvious problems.

I cant find one good aspect of the game that people could see with it, with 2 exceptions

1. You havent played a better mmog
2. You like easy games

(thats the big one)

 

[Sunner]

Well, just because you can't find them doesn't mean it isn't there.
I don't like Age of Empires, but lots of other people do, that's fine with me, and I realize that others have different taste than me.

I still find it fun, though as I said, the lag issues are extremely frustrating, but it sounds like we have it better here in Europe, at least here they aknowledge the problems rather than telling us it's our hardware/drivers/whatever.

As for better MMORPG's, no I haven't found any better ones, but feel free to tell me about them.
EQ: No PvP, no Sunner.
DAOC: Never tried it, from what I've heard it seems boring, save for a few people who seem to love it.
Eve: Was contemplating it, but it seems a tad too time consuming, and I don't really like the space theme as much as the fantasy theme of WoW, EQ, etc.
Anarchy Online: Boring boring boring boring booooring!
Darkfall: Seems very very nice, I hope it'll make it through the door, but a clear downfall is just that, it's not out.

 

[CarLBanks]

I still love WoW and it is the best MMO out there. I have been playing for about a year and am not dissapointed.

 

[TGS]

They should give people the ability to move to other servers to even out population load. Or bring in new servers. Of course we would like to see that though the former brings a serious problem about. On my server, spinebreaker we have professional farmers. Of two I notice quite frequently. A guy named nightbeard and xiaoming. If you did a search on rares, combining the auctions of both parties would amount to possibly 30-35% of all auctions for rares at any time. If you allow those people to move to other servers they are poised to destroy the respective server economies. Same would go for tradeskill players, they move into a low population new server and can completely destroy any chance that other players that craft for money have for making decent coin in-game.

Ok, now twice I've seen people make offhand remarks about how people aren't skilled or prefer easy mode in MMOs. For the love of crimminy it's an RPG, there is basically no twitch skills to break down. There is practically a set pattern to defeat any and all enemies in the game. The twitch comes only in PvP whereas you are using different abilities based on the other players ability use. In WoW, I went on a PvP server, because I knew that grinding out PvE would become a bore eventually. The only reason I'm not a officer rank, I took the last two weeks off PvP to get closer to 58 so I could actually wear the gear. Like I said if I want a twitch challenge, I'll jump on a BF server and gun some clannies down for chuckles.

I like being able to hit up an instance, but if I'm not in the right level range I'm going to pull unneccesary agro or have enough hp/mana to support my team to the levels they need it. In WoW, you basically need two things in every team. A good tank, and a good healer. Between them you can plug anyone in depending on your how long the first two can last. I really doubt anyone that's played WoW went into the first dungeon with a team of like leveled newbies and came out without a death. It's not easy, it offers it's own challenges. The complaints always come from people familiar with the process, and know all the little tricks instances give. The problem is like I've said before, is that the PvE scenarios will always become boring, because they are a static encounter. I've tried to make a warrior alt, but doing the same instances and more or less re-grinding the same areas is very boring. I haven't tried PvP with the warrior, but after seeing horde 60 alts in WSG enchanted out, makes me want to spend less time until I break into the 30s, where enchants will make less of a difference.

 

[Jeff7181]

I was asking if you thought each WoW server was a single machine, and each of the other aspects of the game (chat, AH, mail).

No, and you wouldn't have had to ask if you read my post more thoroughly.

The servers' capabilities don't dictate how many join, Blizzard's character creation wizard does. It encourages certain realms and discourages others. I know I had to jump through a few hoops to get back on my server with a new install after a 6-month hiatus, since it had become a high pop realm and they were discouraging new players from joining it.

Right. And Blizzard's character creation takes into account the servers' capabilities in order to encourage or discourage specific realms, right?

What's your tolerance for lag? You may think nothing of, for instance, clicking search and waiting a few seconds or even minutes while the server queues, processes and returns your request. You may think nothing of selling all your vendor loot and having it all grey out after you click it while you wait on the server. Perhaps you even alt-tab to the forums to defend the game from those evil whiners while you wait Having played other MMORPGs, these things are not acceptable for me.

Very low. Nothing, including searching the AH, usually takes longer than browsing the web takes for me. As I said, there have been a dozen or so times in the past 3 or 4 months when I have experienced the type of lag you're talking about, but I think it's unrealistic to expect 100% uptime and no lag under any circumstances. If you want enterprise quality servers with 100% uptime you're going to have to pay a lot more than $50 for the software and $15 per month.

 

[tuteja1986]

after reaching level 60 and finding out i have played the game for freaken 27days .. it was time for me to cancel my subscription. I wasn?t gaining no experience and I just wonder to my self ?hey I could have done something useful with 648Hrs I wasted on this stupid addicting whoring game.? I could have learnt to built a boat or learnt a new programming language ..

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
after reaching level 60 and finding out i have played the game for freaken 27days .. it was time for me to cancel my subscription. I wasn?t gaining no experience and I just wonder to my self ?hey I could have done something useful with 648Hrs I wasted on this stupid addicting whoring game.? I could have learnt to built a boat or learnt a new programming language ..

Sooner or later you will realize you could say this about anything. You could shave a minute a day off your lunch and gain a massive ammount of time back in your life. You could stop watching TV all together and probably get years back.

But the fact is, unless you are finding the cure for cancer, 90% of the things you could do with that time really won't matter at the end of the day.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
after reaching level 60 and finding out i have played the game for freaken 27days .. it was time for me to cancel my subscription. I wasn?t gaining no experience and I just wonder to my self ?hey I could have done something useful with 648Hrs I wasted on this stupid addicting whoring game.? I could have learnt to built a boat or learnt a new programming language ..

Sooner or later you will realize you could say this about anything. You could shave a minute a day off your lunch and gain a massive ammount of time back in your life. You could stop watching TV all together and probably get years back.

But the fact is, unless you are finding the cure for cancer, 90% of the things you could do with that time really won't matter at the end of the day.

How about connecting with one's higher self to ascend into a higher vibratory plane of existence?

 

[Tremulant]

I've been playing WoW on and off since late December of last year, I very rarely have the major lag problems that RBachman has described. If you're having that much trouble, you should probably try a different server with less people. I know that on Sunday nights on my server the lag is intense, but I don't ever have time to play Sundays, so it doesn't affect me at all.

I enjoy WoW, because I have fun playing it. If I'm not having fun, I do something else instead. (it really is that simple)

And, I have an awesome guild. Not because we're uberl33t and pwn MC/BWL/etc every week, but because we have fun. The only real requirement to join our guild is to want to have fun (well, understanding our sense of humor is good too).

On the issue of easy tradeskills: it's fine with me. I don't want a system where I need to make 15 different items to make one item that either gives me a skillup or that I can use/sell.

I would say more, but it's been said and I don't feel that I have to repeat it.

 

[TGS]

You know another thing I'd like to add, is that the purpose of an MMO is to have a large environment to meet people in. People remark that WoW is a coop RPG. Marketed as a MMORPG, what is WoW failing in? The naysayers are arguing symantics over more difficultly or a harsher environment. Neither of which have anything to do with being a Massively Multiplayer Online title. Where does it imply MMO means, Massively Multiplayer Interactive PKFest Difficult Near Unsurmountable Online game? I would fault it more as not being a real RPG, because people really don't engage the RPG persona to which their avatar is supposed to represent.

Edit: Then again, I went to a PvP server. Perhaps I should have taken my friends advice and rolled on a RP PvP server. Has anyone tried that?

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
How about connecting with one's higher self to ascend into a higher vibratory plane of existence?

Ok.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: TGS
You know another thing I'd like to add, is that the purpose of an MMO is to have a large environment to meet people in. People remark that WoW is a coop RPG. Marketed as a MMORPG, what is WoW failing in? The naysayers are arguing symantics over more difficultly or a harsher environment. Neither of which have anything to do with being a Massively Multiplayer Online title. Where does it imply MMO means, Massively Multiplayer Interactive PKFest Difficult Near Unsurmountable Online game? I would fault it more as not being a real RPG, because people really don't engage the RPG persona to which their avatar is supposed to represent.

Edit: Then again, I went to a PvP server. Perhaps I should have taken my friends advice and rolled on a RP PvP server. Has anyone tried that?

I think the people who don't like calling it an MMORPG feel that way because you can't change your environment. If the horde get together and raid Stormwind... so what? The NPC's respawn, the city is still under Alliance control. When the raid is over, it's like it never happened. Contested territory remains contested no matter what you do. No matter how many times the horde thumps the alliance in the Arathi Basin, the Arathi Highlands are still neutral ground.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Agnostos Insania

Originally posted by: RBachman
Thing is, the asses tend to choose these games & server rulesets. I'm not calling you one, certainly a wide range of people like a wide range of things, just commenting on trends I've observed. If you really want to avoid them...

True. I guess I'd rather have more assholes that can be dealt with than having fewer than have immunity. I love the idea of player justice, even if it's quite bleak at times. It really depends on your playstyle and attitude really. Some people will get PKed and quit the game, vowing never to return, others get PKed and organize a group to kill the PKs.

I can understand that, though it's not my preference. It's cool that, generally, different server rulesets allow for different player mentalities. A big problem I have with WoW is that I don't think class balance should be based on PvP and I don't think PvE servers, such as the one I'm on, should have an ~80% focus on PvP. Actaully, there are no PvE servers; there's PvP (60%), Normal (40%) and a sprinkling of RP, which are essentially Normal servers, as RPing there is ridiculed and has even gotten people kicked from guilds. A PvE-only realm would go a long way toward retaining me as a customer, and I'm far from alone.

Originally posted by: TGS
On my server, spinebreaker we have professional farmers. Of two I notice quite frequently. A guy named nightbeard and xiaoming. If you did a search on rares, combining the auctions of both parties would amount to possibly 30-35% of all auctions for rares at any time. If you allow those people to move to other servers they are poised to destroy the respective server economies.

These are professional farmers employed mostly by the IGE corporation. Each server has hundreds. The chump change they get for farming gold in WoW goes a LONG way in the poverty stricken countries where they live. They couldn't even play on US servers without an American (or Australian / Canadian) credit card; IGE supplies the accounts. Don't blame them for wanting to put food on thier families' tables, blame the imbeciles who buy game money, thus creating the demand.

Ok, now twice I've seen people make offhand remarks about how people aren't skilled or prefer easy mode in MMOs. For the love of crimminy it's an RPG, there is basically no twitch skills to break down. There is practically a set pattern to defeat any and all enemies in the game. The twitch comes only in PvP whereas you are using different abilities based on the other players ability use. In WoW, I went on a PvP server, because I knew that grinding out PvE would become a bore eventually. The only reason I'm not a officer rank, I took the last two weeks off PvP to get closer to 58 so I could actually wear the gear. Like I said if I want a twitch challenge, I'll jump on a BF server and gun some clannies down for chuckles.

I like being able to hit up an instance, but if I'm not in the right level range I'm going to pull unneccesary agro or have enough hp/mana to support my team to the levels they need it. In WoW, you basically need two things in every team. A good tank, and a good healer. Between them you can plug anyone in depending on your how long the first two can last. I really doubt anyone that's played WoW went into the first dungeon with a team of like leveled newbies and came out without a death. It's not easy, it offers it's own challenges. The complaints always come from people familiar with the process, and know all the little tricks instances give. The problem is like I've said before, is that the PvE scenarios will always become boring, because they are a static encounter. I've tried to make a warrior alt, but doing the same instances and more or less re-grinding the same areas is very boring. I haven't tried PvP with the warrior, but after seeing horde 60 alts in WSG enchanted out, makes me want to spend less time until I break into the 30s, where enchants will make less of a difference.

The biggest difference I've seen between PvP types and PvE types is that the PvPers feel the need to constantly drone on about how boring PvE is, often throwing a few choice insults at PvEers, such as "carebear". You'd think if they enjoyed what they were doing, they wouldn't have time for all this... PvEers, on the other hand, take a look out there, see that people enjoy PvP, and think "Ok, so people are different". The repetition argument is hilarious... by your own logic, sex is boring - in, out, repeat It can easily be made against PvP as well - 1) "Pwn", talk smack 2) Die, blame lag 3) repeat.

EverQuest achieved huge popularity and helped pioneer the genre. Yet only about 5% of its servers were PvP, and PvP didn't factor into the game's design or class balance at all. Obviously, there are people out there who prefer to actually advance their character and cooperate to achieve higher goals. Now I don't want to make anyone mad, but take a look at WoW. Take a look at the average maturity level of the playerbase - now take a look at the fact 60% of servers are PvP and the other 40% are HUGELY focused on Battlegrounds. From that, can you infer anything about the average PvPer's age / maturity level?

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Right. And Blizzard's character creation takes into account the servers' capabilities in order to encourage or discourage specific realms, right?

Absolutely

I think it's unrealistic to expect 100% uptime and no lag under any circumstances. If you want enterprise quality servers with 100% uptime you're going to have to pay a lot more than $50 for the software and $15 per month.

Other MMORPGs manage to have acceptable levels of lag & downtime.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: RBachman


The biggest difference I've seen between PvP types and PvE types is that the PvPers feel the need to constantly drone on about how boring PvE is, often throwing a few choice insults at PvEers, such as "carebear". You'd think if they enjoyed what they were doing, they wouldn't have time for all this... PvEers, on the other hand, take a look out there, see that people enjoy PvP, and think "Ok, so people are different". The repetition argument is hilarious... by your own logic, sex is boring - in, out, repeat It can easily be made against PvP as well - 1) "Pwn", talk smack 2) Die, blame lag 3) repeat.

Actually I think sex would be boring, if each time it was exactly the same. Which is why you mix it up a bit to keep it fun.

Another thing I like is opposite factions *can't* talk to each other. The most smack talk you get from the other side is kek for lol, and rude gestures. Barely an annoyance as far as smack talk is concerned.

EverQuest achieved huge popularity and helped pioneer the genre. Yet only about 5% of its servers were PvP, and PvP didn't factor into the game's design or class balance at all. Obviously, there are people out there who prefer to actually advance their character and cooperate to achieve higher goals. Now I don't want to make anyone mad, but take a look at WoW. Take a look at the average maturity level of the playerbase - now take a look at the fact 60% of servers are PvP and the other 40% are HUGELY focused on Battlegrounds. From that, can you infer anything about the average PvPer's age / maturity level?

I think you are missing the point, that in it's time it was nearly the only thing out there.

I do believe that trying to balance, which at it's core is a PvE game, around PvP rules is a bit ridiculous. It was one of the major reasons why I quit CoH(another casual MMO). When they said, "No changes will be made based on the new PvP changes." and then immediately turned around doing the opposite I knew the game was going into a place I didn't want to follow. I think the problem exists where people expect a game to match the idea they have in their heads, and become disappointed when it isn't just game. You can always keep trying to find the game you *really* want to play rather than wasting time hoping the game will change to suit you.

Like Star Wars Galaxies. I'm a hardcore SW fan, right below the people that dress up for premieres. I gave SWG an honest attempt in Beta, and the game didn't fit what I expected in a MMO. The combat system, and crafting system just wasn't what I wanted. So I moved on. It's not admitting defeat or anything, in the end it's finding a game thats fun for you.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
How about connecting with one's higher self to ascend into a higher vibratory plane of existence?

Ok.

I did that, but they nerfed vibrations :|

 

[Jeff7181]

Other MMORPGs manage to have acceptable levels of lag & downtime.

In my experience, so has Blizzard with World of Warcraft.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Other MMORPGs manage to have acceptable levels of lag & downtime.

In my experience, so has Blizzard with World of Warcraft.

I've played my share and, aside from ironing out the rough spots at release and after expansions, my experience in other MMORPGs in terms of lag has been smooth. Even Sony games have been, and that's really saying something - Sony is so incompetent if you gave them a pot, an egg and some water, you'd come back in 10 minutes to find the building ablaze. Lag is a constant in WoW, however, especially during prime time, which is indicative of insufficient server grunt.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Other MMORPGs manage to have acceptable levels of lag & downtime.

In my experience, so has Blizzard with World of Warcraft.

I've played my share and, aside from ironing out the rough spots at release and after expansions, my experience in other MMORPGs in terms of lag has been smooth. Even Sony games have been, and that's really saying something - Sony is so incompetent if you gave them a pot, an egg and some water, you'd come back in 10 minutes to find the building ablaze. Lag is a constant in WoW, however, especially during prime time, which is indicative of insufficient server grunt.

Lag is not constant in WoW. It may be constant on the realm you play on... but saying lag is problem for everyone who plays World of Warcraft is just wrong. It's not a problem for me... and it's not because I'm stupid and can't tell when I'm experiencing lag. I played Horizons... I've experienced severe lag. It doesn't exist on Dalaran or other low population realms to the extent you're leading people to believe.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Other MMORPGs manage to have acceptable levels of lag & downtime.

In my experience, so has Blizzard with World of Warcraft.

I've played my share and, aside from ironing out the rough spots at release and after expansions, my experience in other MMORPGs in terms of lag has been smooth. Even Sony games have been, and that's really saying something - Sony is so incompetent if you gave them a pot, an egg and some water, you'd come back in 10 minutes to find the building ablaze. Lag is a constant in WoW, however, especially during prime time, which is indicative of insufficient server grunt.

Lag is not constant in WoW. It may be constant on the realm you play on... but saying lag is problem for everyone who plays World of Warcraft is just wrong. It's not a problem for me... and it's not because I'm stupid and can't tell when I'm experiencing lag. I played Horizons... I've experienced severe lag. It doesn't exist on Dalaran or other low population realms to the extent you're leading people to believe.

WoW's subscription numbers are still skyrocketing. Realms that are currently low-pop won't be for long.

 

[hooflung]

EVE is great. Lots of stuff to do. New players can specialize and actually have less time to get elite ships than vets if you do your homework. Vets will still have vet-like riches, experience, and connections that will give you a feel of accomplishment.

City of Heroes and City of Villians is more or less broken PvP wise. If you want to give them time to get their crap str8 its a hell of a time, especially for new players.

Star Wars Galaxies... sucks... and ceases to exist as of Nov. 15, 2005. What is left is a husk that can rot in hell, along with Lucas Arts and SOE.

World of Warcraft has the best aspecs of EVE loot wise and the depth of player commitment as City of Heroes. Can get old for elite loot minded players but the game itself, despite the community, thrives and gets better EVERY patch. Paladins are getting knocked back down to earth in 1.9 and balance imho will be close to perfect ( maybe druids could use some hate tho ).

All in all, EVE is the best MMO I have ever played. WoW is the most epic I have ever played. CoH/CoV is the most action packed MMO I have ever played. SWG, well, it stole my heart and now I will never get that piece back and SOE/LA can rot in hell for it. Other games, such as Anarchy Online, MxO, and the like just can't compete.

 

[Acanthus]

Eve is also the highest rated mmorpg at MMORPG.com

and the lowest score it got in its average was "role playing" which is a feature i dont really care about. How do you roleplay in a game set thousands of years in the future?

Im still on my free trial, but this game has everything, crafting, research, vast amounts of weaponry and technology to select for your ship, over 100 different ships with more being added.

You can do anything, become a hated space pirate and fly solo and kill players.

Become a mercenary kill said pirates and earn bounties players put on their heads.

Become a scientist and crank out new technology for all to use.

Construct ships for profit.

Become a strip miner or other specialized miner.

Become a hauler and do trade missions or haul ore for guilds miners.

The game even has a stock market where you can invest in companies (guilds).

You can be feared in a battlecruiser, or your company can build it own space station and provide a service to the universe.

Did i happen to mention only 1 server? Everyone is in the same world. So ninja looting and other disrespectful behavior is an extreme rarity, because you cant just jump to another server and start over.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Eve is also the highest rated mmorpg at MMORPG.com

and the lowest score it got in its average was "role playing" which is a feature i dont really care about. How do you roleplay in a game set thousands of years in the future?

Im still on my free trial, but this game has everything, crafting, research, vast amounts of weaponry and technology to select for your ship, over 100 different ships with more being added.

You can do anything, become a hated space pirate and fly solo and kill players.

Become a mercenary kill said pirates and earn bounties players put on their heads.

Become a scientist and crank out new technology for all to use.

Construct ships for profit.

Become a strip miner or other specialized miner.

Become a hauler and do trade missions or haul ore for guilds miners.

The game even has a stock market where you can invest in companies (guilds).

You can be feared in a battlecruiser, or your company can build it own space station and provide a service to the universe.

Did i happen to mention only 1 server? Everyone is in the same world. So ninja looting and other disrespectful behavior is an extreme rarity, because you cant just jump to another server and start over.

How many times do you get to step out of your ship to party on a space station or anywhere for that matter?

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Eve is also the highest rated mmorpg at MMORPG.com

and the lowest score it got in its average was "role playing" which is a feature i dont really care about. How do you roleplay in a game set thousands of years in the future?

Im still on my free trial, but this game has everything, crafting, research, vast amounts of weaponry and technology to select for your ship, over 100 different ships with more being added.

You can do anything, become a hated space pirate and fly solo and kill players.

Become a mercenary kill said pirates and earn bounties players put on their heads.

Become a scientist and crank out new technology for all to use.

Construct ships for profit.

Become a strip miner or other specialized miner.

Become a hauler and do trade missions or haul ore for guilds miners.

The game even has a stock market where you can invest in companies (guilds).

You can be feared in a battlecruiser, or your company can build it own space station and provide a service to the universe.

Did i happen to mention only 1 server? Everyone is in the same world. So ninja looting and other disrespectful behavior is an extreme rarity, because you cant just jump to another server and start over.

How many times do you get to step out of your ship to party on a space station or anywhere for that matter?

Everything is done in space, you party in space (called a gang).

 

[Super56K]

Originally posted by: TGS
You know another thing I'd like to add, is that the purpose of an MMO is to have a large environment to meet people in. People remark that WoW is a coop RPG. Marketed as a MMORPG, what is WoW failing in? The naysayers are arguing symantics over more difficultly or a harsher environment. Neither of which have anything to do with being a Massively Multiplayer Online title. Where does it imply MMO means, Massively Multiplayer Interactive PKFest Difficult Near Unsurmountable Online game? I would fault it more as not being a real RPG, because people really don't engage the RPG persona to which their avatar is supposed to represent.

Edit: Then again, I went to a PvP server. Perhaps I should have taken my friends advice and rolled on a RP PvP server. Has anyone tried that?

Yes, currently a level 20 Dwarven warrior on the new RP/PvP server Lightninghoof. It isn't nearly as full of RP'ers as I expected it to be. I was afraid to try it because it sounded too nerdy for me, but now that I've played in it I know that was a stupid assumption. A lot of people playing on that server do not roleplay one bit. It gets annoying seeing in the general chat stuff akin to Diablo II lingo(and I'm sure the regular WoW servers). It does have its moments though(already quite a few).

Right now it's definately a fun game. I voted that, no, I don't think it sucks. The endgame doesn't sound appealing at all, but in truth I'll probably never make it that far. I haven't even had the patience to get a party created for the Deadmines yet(gave up after like 20 minutes). I'll probably end up having a couple mid-level characters of different classes then most likely give it up. Humongous raids that take 17 days to do(3 days to start one) doesn't sound like fun, but right now partying up with people and questing is a blast. Even better when, like last night, you have members of the other side trying to kill you at every turn.

 

[ndee]

The problem I have with WoW(reason why I quit) is that it doesn't matter if you have skill, it just requires enough time. Time I'm not willing to spend. But I guess that's with every other MMORPG.

Take PVP for example, in my guild, there was a guy, non stop AB, the Horde always left when they saw his group because they are pretty good but I think from Rank 8 or 9, he only sat there, farming honor and be bored. At least, he's now Rank 14. Same with MC, you just need enough time to farm MC. I think they should make more 5-men instances for the end game, not only the 20 and 40 instances. Why not make a 5-men instance as hard as BWL? Now that would be fun IMO and you could easily find groups for it.