Doesnt World of Warcraft Suck?

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TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
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One of the few things City of Heroes implemented was a player knockdown and knockback, that worked just like PvE powers though for PvP. Then they had to bring in suppression... Oh dear god why?

Ignoring the level grind, and lack of content past say 20. Though that's another thread.
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
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Originally posted by: Sunner
Now that's just a load of crap.
I play on a PvP server because I wanna...PvP, fascinating concept no?
Originally posted by: Zerohm
Your statements are completely unfounded. The average L33t Hax0rz Camper might be 13 yes. However, most of the people I play with, including myself, are in their low-mid twenties, don't grief, and don't use teh uber l33t spe4k, except in jest. Was I camped a few times on my way to 60? Yes, and it sucked, but I still enjoyed leveling and now I am able to avoid those people altogether, or kill them.

I don't understand why you think PvP is for children though. To some people videogames as a whole are for children, are those people correct in their logic? No.

As for difficulty, the end-game raids (Molten Core, Black Wing Lair, etc) a.) are very difficult and complex. The 20 and 40 person parties doing these raids are comprised mostly of mature young adults that just happen to take the game pretty seriously.
MMORPGs are games that as many as hundreds of thousands of people - even millions of people - play. Of course people of all ages and backgrounds will play on all servers. The point both of you missed is that we're not talking about individuals here, we're talking about trends among a large number of players. And the trend in WoW is a young age, as is the trend in PvP.

Average player age is the biggest difference between WoW and most other MMORPGs, and it shows in general chat and on the official forums. I'm not calling any of you kids, Sunner especially has proven himself to be a very intelligent and mature individual. I'm old enough for the hair on my head to be migrating to my back. In WoW and especially in PvP though, we're the minority.

The poster I responded to was complaining about a little kid griefing him. I stand by my valid suggestion of moving to a Normal server where there are fewer children and they're unable to grief you.
Originally posted by: Sunner
Saying PvP servers are for kiddies(as is certinaly implied by your in itself rather immature post) is like saying PvE servers are only for carebears.
Ask yourself why carebear is such a common insult in the first place
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
You'd love the server I play on, everyone's a carebear there
I've actually been amazed at the average age, I'd say in our guild it's around 20, which is of course not very high, but it's definitely not a bunch of "omfg wtfpwnzor lolol!!!!!111" kiddies.
The same is true for many other guilds as well, I know a bunch of people from them, most in their early 20's, some far older.

Must say though, this seems to hold true much more for the Horde side than the alliance side.
For one, just looking at the ally guild forums, their average player seems to be several years younger, and more of the traditional pimple faced nerd type(yeah yeah, I'm replying to your post with a blanket statement of my own, hypocrisy owns ).
As I've said many times, I can't help but think this is because the "attractiveness" of female Night Elf and Human toons, my experience playing on the alliance side supports this, far more than 50% of the players are female night elves and humans, and they're far more prone to use the whole l337 vocabulary(no, not talking about /general, I never venture in there, it's like WoW P&N and OT mixed into one).

Always reminds me of a guy I played with more or less the whole way from lvl 35 to 60, when he hit 60, he actually deleted his toon to play with some friends on the ally side.
About two weeks later he came back, having deleted his ally toon, when I asked him why, his response was something like(translated from Swedish) "It's ****** hopeless to play on the ally side, it's just too full of idiots and kids".
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
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Originally posted by: RBachman


The poster I responded to was complaining about a little kid griefing him. I stand by my valid suggestion of moving to a Normal server where there are fewer children and they're unable to grief you.

Actually no... I wasn't complaining about someone griefing me. I said people who keep characters around merely for the annoyance of others is what bothers me. Camping, being PKed, etc is all part of being on a PvP server. That inherent danger element that I appreciate. Now when I forced my friend to jump on a PvP server with me, I knew we would get PKed, I could care less. The WoW mechanisms exist to make it nothing more than a quick run back to the corpse. There is no penalty, and you don't have to get your body immediately you just out wait them. I mean, who has more to lose the level 15 alt questing or the level 60 not building faction rep, PvP rank, or raiding? I like it when I come in to help kill some PKers, and get jumped by others *my level* and turn it around and kill the *backup*. It's kinda the point of going to a PvP server.

Just the other day, following the night I killed a bunch of Para Bellum folk, I was running quests with my lowbie guild. Though I was on my priest. We came into a lowbie area, and ran into a gank party waiting in the road. So after a little bit of dancing, two players my level and 5 people the lowbie levels were laying on the ground. Oh wait... yeah a 57 shammy managed to use either a invisibility potion or something to vanish out of combat. So he made it out. Though I imagine that the other players were scratching their heads wondering what went wrong. :laugh:



Edit: The point being high level characters ganking low level characters in remote areas isn't PvP. It's Player versus Game Mechanics. See my response below for an idea to fix this.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy
Originally posted by: RBachman
How much is it for you? It's around $50 here, with DirecTV at $45 iirc.

Something like $9 a month, although you only get a dozen or so channels.

Just FYI, that is an extremely low for basic cable service in the US. Most cable systems have gone to giving you a lot more channels, but at a higher price. I pay something like $40 per month, plus ~$5 for my cable box, and another $5 or so in random fees. I do get a discount for getting both cable TV and internet service from Comcast, however.

As far as WoW is concerned, I actually just picked up a trial account this week. I've previously played a number of MMORPG games, including EQ, AO, AC2, PlanetSide, and (most recently) CoH. I tend to play a fair amount of solo, and I don't always have huge blocks of time to devote to the game (which was a problem I had with CoH -- the fastest way to level is to do the big team missions, but they take 6-8 hours of continuous play unless your group is REALLY good). Overall, I will probably not be able to play more than 20 hours per month tops. I'm enjoying it enough that I ordered the full game.

Is it "easy"? Well, sort of. I can solo level pretty quickly without a great degree of difficulty (so far). But I've had to form groups to do some of the quests without getting the smack laid down on me by the mobs (or else I'd have to go grind for 2-3 levels until I could solo the monsters in groups). The quests pull you along in the storyline pretty well, and quest completion gives you a lot of experience relative to some of the other games I've played. The quests also involve a good mix of tasks (not just 'take this item to this other place' or 'go camp this unique mob with 80 other players until you get the rare item it drops').

I did notice that the crafting is a LOT easier than in most other MMORPGs, and so far I have not had much in the way of money troubles (my character is a druid, so I don't need to buy as much gear as some other classes). I can appreciate the sense of accomplishment and value that comes with making crafting very hard (or at least very time-consuming) -- but it's also nice to be able to craft something useful without having to devote tens of hours just to building up skills or finding rare drops. I have assumed, from the progression so far, that crafting advancement will get significantly slower and reagents will be much scarcer/more expensive at higher levels, but I confess I have not studied the economics of the game closely. I'm not sure how (or if) they avoid the rampant inflation that plagued some of the early MMORPGs.

I can see how having no death penalty removes some of the 'danger' from the game -- you don't have to worry too much about getting smacked down by some overpowered critter if you poke your nose in the wrong place, since all you lose is a few minutes of time. However, it's nice to not have to worry about that for someone who doesn't play as much; being set back in your character's development by an hour or two because of a mistake in combat (or a mob respawning on top of you during a fight) is incredibly frustrating when that is a day or two of play. EQ was particularly brutal, since if you kept getting killed it would take you forever to level up. CoH had a nicer system, where you accrued experience at half your normal rate until you had paid off your 'debt'. This meant that, at worst, you advanced at half-speed for a while (rather than being stuck in a cycle of getting killed before you could level up and not getting anywhere). Frankly, I would rather have it err too much on the side of generosity than punishment, as it is easy to die (especially when soloing) without it really being your fault.

I'm on an almost-brand-new server (Draka), and I haven't noticed any lag issues (even during peak times). Perhaps this will change as more players come into the world; I will have to keep an eye on it. The player base seems relatively benign, and not as full of 12-year-olds as I had feared (although there are plenty of people spamming guild invitations in the low-level area I am in, but they just go on the ignore list). Again, this probably varies considerably from server to server, and my experience with other games is that it is worse when PvP gets involved (since people tend to take it more personally). PvP in an MMORPG just doesn't do it for me; I'll fire up CS:Source or BF2 if I feel I have to kill something that fights back.

About the only thing I would *really* like to have added is a grouping system like the one in CoH. In that game, you can join a per-area list of people looking for a group, and the list can be viewed by everyone and sorted by level or "class" (for instance, if you need a healer for your group, you can glance at the list and see if there are any looking to join a group). Makes it a LOT easier to find pickup groups of people in the area, and it's less intrusive than a LFG chat channel.

And yes, the people whining about monthly fees are just being whiny. $15 a month is not a lot of money to pay for 10+ hours of entertainment compared with a lot of the other options out there.
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
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0
For teaming, they don't need the overly involved CoH system, they just need to flag people in a group or raid. For PvP, make it so that when players square off, other players are treated as like levels for the sake of attacking and defending. That would take some fire out of the end game levels attacking newbie areas, without fear of reprisal.
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
Originally posted by: Sunner
You'd love the server I play on, everyone's a carebear there
I've actually been amazed at the average age, I'd say in our guild it's around 20, which is of course not very high, but it's definitely not a bunch of "omfg wtfpwnzor lolol!!!!!111" kiddies.
The same is true for many other guilds as well, I know a bunch of people from them, most in their early 20's, some far older.

Must say though, this seems to hold true much more for the Horde side than the alliance side.
For one, just looking at the ally guild forums, their average player seems to be several years younger, and more of the traditional pimple faced nerd type(yeah yeah, I'm replying to your post with a blanket statement of my own, hypocrisy owns ).
As I've said many times, I can't help but think this is because the "attractiveness" of female Night Elf and Human toons, my experience playing on the alliance side supports this, far more than 50% of the players are female night elves and humans, and they're far more prone to use the whole l337 vocabulary(no, not talking about /general, I never venture in there, it's like WoW P&N and OT mixed into one).

Always reminds me of a guy I played with more or less the whole way from lvl 35 to 60, when he hit 60, he actually deleted his toon to play with some friends on the ally side.
About two weeks later he came back, having deleted his ally toon, when I asked him why, his response was something like(translated from Swedish) "It's ****** hopeless to play on the ally side, it's just too full of idiots and kids".
Yeah, average age in my guild is probably 25-30, a few couples, a few single girls D), one of our rogues (who plays his class great) is only 12 or so and is one of the couples' kids. It's a cool guild, but it doesn't mean the average age in WoW is > 13 though or make it more bearable, it's more like a few people on a tiny desert island in rough seas

I agree with you about alliance vs. horde, but I started my rogue alt on alliance since my shaman main was (obviously) horde and I wanted to see as much of the world as possible... and before I knew what was happening the class sucked me up like a vacuum - rogues are FUN (if grossly underpowered for end-game PvE ) Next thing I knew I was 60... Regardless, while the average age may be younger, the number is much larger, and PUGs are easier to come by. Yes, I have a guild, and yes I've had some bad PUG experiences... but I've had some great ones too, and the average is decent to good, something acceptable for me - especially with the alternative being sitting in IF. Even large guilds don't provide groups 24/7 when you want one. I've done UBRS in an hour & 15 minutes with no deaths in a PUG once, all people in blues & greens. In comparison, Orgrimmar is a ghost town. Now that I'm getting to the point where there aren't many upgrades for me outside of MC/ZG/BWL, I'm even a little disappointed.
Originally posted by: TGS
Actually no... I wasn't complaining about someone griefing me. I said people who keep characters around merely for the annoyance of others is what bothers me. Camping, being PKed, etc is all part of being on a PvP server. That inherent danger element that I appreciate.
If you like it, then why complain about it?
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
0
0
Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: TGS
Actually no... I wasn't complaining about someone griefing me. I said people who keep characters around merely for the annoyance of others is what bothers me. Camping, being PKed, etc is all part of being on a PvP server. That inherent danger element that I appreciate.
If you like it, then why complain about it?

I thought you would have caught on when I bring up PvP, I specifically mention fighting against similiar levels. When it's a fight against a large level dispartity, it's not fighting against the human aspect, it's a fight against game mechanics. The artifical limitations put in place so lower players have a harder time fighting "higher" level content. Now like I mentioned one of the few PvP ideas CoH implemented was no matter the level difference, all players were considered within a few levels of each other. IE a level 1 had just as much of a chance to hit a level 1 opponent, or a 50 opponent. Of course the fact the level 1 character had no chance to out damage the 50 would come into play here. Though in open PvP, like in WoW's case, you could have a bunch of level 10 characters mob a level 60 character and take them down. As it stands in WoW it's a simple matter that the game pratically offers no chance for a "newbie" player to overpower a higher level ganker.

To implement the level difference to cap at say a three level difference would be huge in the level disparity that players basically exploit to grief. I could care less that they are using the system against other players. I fault the developers for not seeing the flaw in their open PvP implementation. The players who use this to their advantage are just that, annoying. No different than FPS players who use wall glitches to their advantage. Someone creates the holes they use to crawl in and grief others with. Does it stop me from being number one for points totals? Not at all. It most likely will ganer enough attentiont to tell any admins and avoid the exploit point in question.

In WoW, I didn't level up my priest for a long time because I wanted to run the BGs with a lower level friend. I ran into some 60's attacking a lowbie zone, and started to level up again. I hit 54 and I've been killing griefers(namely 60's specifically) for a while now. I've jumped up to 55 the other day, and I still enjoy killing gankers. Why is this...? Oh yeah, they can't exploit game mechanics anymore and even a 60 not completely decked out with epics will get a nice little tap upside the head when they get in my sights. Now that I'm out of the greater than ten level difference the game mechanics now bend in my favor. Like I've stated before, I can take out several people my own level. Which is what PvP is all about. Your *own* levels. Unless someone is green or better to me, and isn't attacking my faction, they won't even get a /wave.


I'm discussing it, because I believe the current system could be improved to make it a more fun environment overall.
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
You'd like it, but all the Little Timmys who play only to grief wouldn't. There are a lot of them - probably more than there are of people who feel the way you do. I've had to come to terms with something similar myself - despite having no sanctioned PvP for its first six months, WoW is now a strictly PvP game. There are no PvE-only servers, most people on Normal servers want only to do battlegrounds 24/7, and class balance is based entirely on PvP. And who am I to complain? Most WoW players like it just fine this way.
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
0
0
Well I've said my insight into this particular game. The OP statement is strictly based on absolutes, and you come in decrying WoW for the game it is. I think the people who've read what you posted about WoW, can figure out that you want everyone back on EQ. Though I'm sure you can toss out more carebear, whinning, or little timmy comments to get your "point" across.

The soapbox is all yours, bub. :laugh:

Edit: Fixed to EQ
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
Originally posted by: TGS
Well I've said my insight into this particular game. The OP statement is strictly based on absolutes, and you come in decrying WoW for the game it is. I think the people who've read what you posted about WoW, can figure out that you want everyone back on UO. Though I'm sure you can toss out more carebear, whinning, or little timmy comments to get your "point" across.

The soapbox is all yours, bub. :laugh:

Never played UO, and with open PvP I wouldn't want to. You might be thinking of HeroOfPelinor, who was a big UO/PvP fan. The only one crying is you; I can accept that WoW isn't for me. You, on the other hand, seem to want PvP without the brattiest of the kiddies, something which simply isn't possible. Funny that you leave with a carebear comment though. I'm generally pretty tolerant, but one reason I hate PvP so much (aside from it being dreadfully boring, repetitive and pointless) is that the children who do it can't leave well enough alone - they have to think about how "k3wl" they are by calling people who don't want to play with them carebears. Odd, if I wanted to play with 12 year olds in real life I'd probably go to jail for it.
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
0
0
Yeah, you would be right. The droning tends to all meld together. The box is all yours again. :laugh:


Open PvP is fine, killing the gleeful would-be griefer is also fun. I'll even admitted I smirk a bit when I end a griefers tirade. So I imagine I'm acting childish by becoming the anti-griefer. Just took a while to hit that point.

Edit: Fixed the UO/EQ mistake

 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
Originally posted by: TGS
Yeah, you would be right. The droning tends to all meld together. The box is all yours again. :laugh:


Open PvP is fine, killing the gleeful would-be griefer is also fun. I'll even admitted I smirk a bit when I end a griefers tirade. So I imagine I'm acting childish by becoming the anti-griefer. Just took a while to hit that point.

Thought you said you were done here? Kinda hard to figure you out when you contradict yourself so much.
 

Velk

Senior member
Jul 29, 2004
734
0
0
Originally posted by: RBachman
Originally posted by: Velk
<snip>
EQ's player age was high - after 5 years - because the 13-15 year olds that started playing when it was released grew up and it was too 'old and boring' to attract new ones. Or did you think the 18-20 year olds sprung up out of thin air ? 8)

My personal wager to you - after the first 6 months, a substantial portion of vanguard's highest level characters will be owned by players who are under 18.

The average player age was well above 18-20, and dropped as the game aged, rather than going up.

That's an interesting claim for a couple of reasons.

Firstly the claim the average age of the population was going down is absurd if you think about it objectively - if there are 350,000 people playing, and the average age is 18, for the average age to drop to 17 after one year you would need to add one hundred thousand 10 year olds in that year.

Secondly, the only demographics I am aware of for EQ were, as far as I recall, compiled in the 4th or 5th year - or did you actually have a source for the demographic information that backs your assertions about the earlier years ?

I get the feeling you didn't actually play the game. Am I right?

I am not sure how it is relevant, but no, you are wrong. I quit playing everquest slightly after world of warcraft was released. It perhaps brings a different perspective, as I think you would be extremely hard pressed to find anyone who experienced it to describe gates of discord as too easy. It was a tremendous blow to EQ's success for quite the opposite reason actually.


Your proposed wager is a bet I won't take for one reason - Microsoft. I have faith in Brad & crew's ability, but M$ will badly want this game to succeed. I'm not sure what the latest word is on it being an Xbox 360 title, but I think it's a strong possibility.

The latest word is that it is not, and has no plans to be an xbox 360 title. My personal feeling is that there is no chance that it will happen at any time, for reasons which should be strikingly obvious from any interface screenshots.

 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
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When did you start EQ? It'd be impossible for anyone who began in its first few years to deny the maturity degradation which occurred mostly during and after the Planes expansion.

Would you mind expounding on the "strikingly obvious" reasons VG:SoH won't be an Xbox 360 title?
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Originally posted by: Velk
has no plans to be an xbox 360 title

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I pray the xbox live servers are separate from the PC's servers.
 

Hoshimoto

Banned
Nov 17, 2005
54
0
0
WoW suck, after playing EQ2 demo i look @ wow and graphics is f****d up ewww this game sux more than anything else. Wow is for those who cant afford hi-end pc and high monthly fee.
 

CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
Originally posted by: Hoshimoto
WoW suck, after playing EQ2 demo i look @ wow and graphics is f****d up ewww this game sux more than anything else. Wow is for those who cant afford hi-end pc and high monthly fee.

Graphics aren't everything, especially in MMORPGs. I'd rather play EQ circa 2000, graphics and all, than ANYTHING else out there, and by a long shot. What do you mean by high monthly fees, how much is EQ2 now?
 

Hoshimoto

Banned
Nov 17, 2005
54
0
0
Originally posted by: RBachmanGraphics aren't everything, especially in MMORPGs. I'd rather play EQ circa 2000
So why dont you play it then?
I dont say bout old gaames "if graphics sux, game sux", but for new game and WoW was released 2004 or 2005 they could've make better graphics, much better!

What do you mean by high monthly fees, how much is EQ2 now?

Guess monthly price is 15$ for EQ2 and 10$ for wow.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: Hoshimoto
WoW suck, after playing EQ2 demo i look @ wow and graphics is f****d up ewww this game sux more than anything else. Wow is for those who cant afford hi-end pc and high monthly fee.

Matter of opinion entirely.
I love WoW's graphics simply because they're very "alive", for lack of a better word.
Not to mention they stay true to the graphical style of the old WarCraft games.

EQ2's graphics on the other hand, while technically excellent, look far too boring to me.
The typical kind that would bore me to tears after the initial impression wears off.

You know what they say of opinions and assholes
 

Hoshimoto

Banned
Nov 17, 2005
54
0
0
I also think WoW is lacking realism, and its graphics is looks more like some cartoon...
In terms of creating such graphics as wow have, its easyest graphics to create... low polygon models etc... Also poor movement animaton, and physics.

Originally posted by: SunnerEQ2's graphics on the other hand, while technically excellent, look far too boring to me.
The typical kind that would bore me to tears after the initial impression wears off.
Think its just you... I like realism more...

 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: Hoshimoto
I also think WoW is lacking realism, and its graphics is looks more like some cartoon...
In terms of creating such graphics as wow have, its easyest graphics to create... low polygon models etc... Also poor movement animaton, and physics.

Originally posted by: SunnerEQ2's graphics on the other hand, while technically excellent, look far too boring to me.
The typical kind that would bore me to tears after the initial impression wears off.
Think its just you... I like realism more...

Which is why I said it was a matter of opinion, but it sure isn't just me.
Plenty of others have said the exact same thing.

The somewhat cartoonish graphics have always been part of WarCraft, making WoW look like EQ2 would ruin the whole game IMO.
And I don't really think realism matters that much in a world full of trolls, mages, demons, etc etc
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: Hoshimoto
Ok last word in this topic, I hate WoW engine and graphcs cya.

RBachman, you were saying what about WoW vs other MMORPG players and maturity?(Yeah, just screwing with ya)
 
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