Doesnt World of Warcraft Suck?

[KoolDrew]

No.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Zerohm
/agree with skace.

Rbachman, I understand that you believe WoW generally has a younger audience, and you believe that generally the younger audience prefers PvP. However, to express that belief by saying the average age of WoW players is 13 is insulting to older players, and it hinders your credibility. Particularly since most of the people I even associate with in game are in their 20s, or at least late teens.

WoW does an excellent job of making everyone have to actually play the game for themselves with the variable loot rules, Bind on Pick-up/Equip items, instances, etc. and they were the first, as far as I know, to do most of that stuff. I think they also did a good job of making a game that a casual player can pick up, and a hardcore gamer can play 24/7. I guess I'm in between the two so I'm not really annoyed by either.

I agree with RB on pretty much every point. Lets get something straight here, if the player base is not 13 and indeed is made up of the majority of 20's something players, then the majority of those players act like children.

Yes, let me state that perhaps not everyone is 13 and perhaps hardly any are 13, but most people act like they are 13 in the game. Perhaps it is WoW just bringing out the worst in people. I can personally attest that the game does have a lot of 20 year olds. My guild were a bunch of 20 year olds and hearing them talk on Ventrillo was like listening to a bunch of Jr. Highers, so I left the game and the guild.

The WoW community in general is filled with azzholes all around. My experience has been 25% normal mature players and 75% azzbandits.

Edit ** I wanted to also express that I have nothing against younger kids. I don't dislike 5 year olds, nor 15 year olds. I actually work with Jr Highers on a weekly basis which is why I can get rather frustrated with much of their behavior. They just don't always act like they should, in fact much of the time they rarely act as though they should. Perhaps we expect to much out of them. Either way, I just want to make it know that not all 13 year olds are immature, but most of them are and that I personally mean no offense to them. We were all thirteen at some point in our lives, no sense on making fun of what we once were.

 

[TGS]

I really doubt this has much to do with WoW, but more due to the anonymity given to people playing games over the internet. Not much different from the forum bravado most people exhibited here.

Edit: IE Text

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: TGS
I really doubt this has much to do with WoW, but more due to the anonymity given to people playing games over the internet. Not much different from the forum bravado most people exhibited here.

Edit: IE Text

I agree, had to edit the link due to filter settings. Anyway, that is true then that when you take away real consequences from life humanity reverts to the ultimate low. Which is why most people on the internet are complete jerks, especially many in this forum. I mean if you seen all the rude and mean comments that go on here you get an understanding the humanity hasn't improved one bit, in fact, I would argue that we have gotten far worse... Just look at the video forum you have people calling others simpleton's, ignorant, stupid, etc... I guess that is when I realize we aren't getting any better at all. This just goes to show how people really are, just that they hide it in public places where they can be known.

 

[TGS]

Which is why for my gameplay to be enjoyable I typically try to find *very* like minded people. I think that spending time trying to force people to be more "mature" would be a waste of my time. That being the case, if I find people that are typically beyond the "Fvckwad" point of their internet usage it will make for a much more enjoyable time.

I really don't like to make blanket statements on games, because for everyone one person saying "0mGz0r u ned 2 giv me g0ld!!111" there are a handful of people telling them to shut up, or like myself "/1 "/ignore (playername)" ftw". The point being is that "mature" players tend to keep to themselves or talk privately within guild or local chat with others.

Did you know there is a limit on the amount of people you can ignore? Seems like a small oversight into whomever created the ignorelist function. :laugh:

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: skace
Just remember, all those discussing EQ are doing so through rose colored glasses. EQ had one of the worst track records ever created when it came to bugs and game content. Large quests to get keys just to enter a zone that wasn't finished, quests that took months and ended with a NPC eating the turn-in item, quests that went absolutely nowhere because they were never finished or were partially removed from the game, mobs would teleport, mobs could kill you from underneath the world, mobs would often attack through walls, dungeons that were so utterly completely full that level 5 rogues could walk to the end of the dungeon and beg for items (this is where the original NEED for instancing came from, thank you lguk), people would zone into a new area and end up naked with absolutely nothing in their bank and have to get restores, mob pathing that would cause a mob in front of you to turn around and run all the way through the entire dungeon to get to you, invis bugs where someone would be invis but still get seen by monsters that shouldn't see invis (often requiring every person to actively test their invis to see if they had the bugged invis).

Much of what you're talking about is post-planes - and I agree, the game got awful then. On LGuk, it was a problem which was quickly addressed by the RoK release.

Were the players any better? Let's see, training giants and spectres down the beach of oasis. Training spectres to the ogre starting city from POF portal. Shadowknights would HT mobs to kill steal (hence the need for encounter locks in EQ2 / WoW first hit claim). General loot whoring and bitchyness that went on in any raid guild. Ninja looting (hence the need for 90% of games after EQ having loot master modes / etc). Tons of duping, z-axis exploiting, path exploiting and other bug abusers. EQ had at least 2 massive 3rd party exploit programs.

Asshats have always been around. They played EQ in low enough numbers that it remained an enjoyable game, however. Sorta like how the "but a lot of adults play WoW and some kids are really mature" argument doesn't make the WoW playerbase any more mature. It's a statistics thing.

By now you'd probably think I hated EQ, but I didn't. I enjoyed it for what it was, just like I enjoy WoW for what it is. The difference is I can sit down and acknowledge that both games have pros and cons unlike RBachman who will spend 7 pages trying to sell you on the fact that EQ was perfect, the community was mature and WoW is a living hell.

Might as well just admit you have no argument, so you see nothing wrong with putting words in my mouth. Ok, well I think it's disgusting that you're a member of the KKK and engage in bestiality regularly.

Oh and Rbachman, the term you are looking for is "Mudflation", it is the term by which gear continues to improve at such large leaps and bounds until it is obsurd, trivializing previous encounters and ruining the game to a certain degree. It got its name because it was used extremely often in MUDs. And it started happening in EQ the second they added Kunark, you noting it in POP just shows your tolerance to it. Most people remember Kunark as the start of it, because Kunark added gear with other classes spells, something most people thought of as mudflation and the destruction of class dependancy.

Did you even read my posts? I'm talking about the gap between raid and non-raid gear becoming larger, not mudflation, which is all gear getting better as a game ages and expansions are released.

 

[Zerohm]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
The WoW community in general is filled with azzholes all around. My experience has been 25% normal mature players and 75% azzbandits.

Well, I see what you are saying, but this has not been by experience. I think all MMORPGs eventually fall victim to the previously mentioned Fvckwad theory and thus immature audiences and practices, especially after a year or so. It's a natural progression. If WoW progressed to an immature audience faster than most games, it was because it's a well made game that is fun to play, not because it's an easy game. I can't disagree that people act like jerks in game sometimes, but I have been able to avoid these people for the most part. It does take some effort sometimes but I think it's worth it.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Zerohm

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
The WoW community in general is filled with azzholes all around. My experience has been 25% normal mature players and 75% azzbandits.

Well, I see what you are saying, but this has not been by experience. I think all MMORPGs eventually fall victim to the previously mentioned Fvckwad theory and thus immature audiences and practices, especially after a year or so. It's a natural progression. If WoW progressed to an immature audience faster than most games, it was because it's a well made game that is fun to play, not because it's an easy game. I can't disagree that people act like jerks in game sometimes, but I have been able to avoid these people for the most part. It does take some effort sometimes but I think it's worth it.

You really don't think a simpler, easier and more casual-focused game will draw in a younger & less mature playerbase?

 

[Avalon]

Times up, let's do this! LEEEEEEROOOY! JEEEEEEENKINS!

 

[TGS]

Do you have any information on actual statistics on the WoW player base? Perhaps something to substantiate claims of the huge divide between age groups? If anything WoW(or players) could be faulted for the lack of public policing of attitudes. Though GM's do take behavioral issues seriously if they are brought to bare. To which one "youth" was spouting off in Ironforge general chat, a good multitude of players responded in kind with "reported" claims. I later received a message from the offending player, asking if I was the "chickensh1t" that turned him into the the GM's.

GM's exist for a reason, and to which if people are causing problems they exist to help alleviate your issues.

Don't you think the playerbase for EQ was "mature" due to the fact it was a new outlet, and that people more focused in the "annoyance of others" had yet to find? I play regularly with those much younger than I. I even play with a seventeen year old kid from australia. He presents a mature attitude much greater than good deal of players I've met up with. I think your problem with PvP, is that it introduces a greater chance of engaging with the "F-Wad" factor than you care to deal with. Just because that is the route you take to avoid those circumstances, gives you no credit to toss out generalities about anonymous players. For all you know the people with the biggest "F-Wad" chip on their shoulders could be people in your age bracket, looking for an outlet for their own brand of frustration.

You have yet to address, what type of game would be more condusive towards your type of gameplay. Omitting a single player game of course. Now again before you leap to conclusions, I come from an older console RPG era. So of course I can greatly enjoy a indepth single player(read PvE) experience. The last interesting "RPG" I played was Morrowind. Before that I believe Neverwinter Nights, Baldurs Gate, and possibly a Final Fantasy title.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: TGS
Do you have any information on actual statistics on the WoW player base? Perhaps something to substantiate claims of the huge divide between age groups? If anything WoW(or players) could be faulted for the lack of public policing of attitudes. Though GM's do take behavioral issues seriously if they are brought to bare. To which one "youth" was spouting off in Ironforge general chat, a good multitude of players responded in kind with "reported" claims. I later received a message from the offending player, asking if I was the "chickensh1t" that turned him into the the GM's.

GM's exist for a reason, and to which if people are causing problems they exist to help alleviate your issues.

Don't you think the playerbase for EQ was "mature" due to the fact it was a new outlet, and that people more focused in the "annoyance of others" had yet to find? I play regularly with those much younger than I. I even play with a seventeen year old kid from australia. He presents a mature attitude much greater than good deal of players I've met up with. I think your problem with PvP, is that it introduces a greater chance of engaging with the "F-Wad" factor than you care to deal with. Just because that is the route you take to avoid those circumstances, gives you no credit to toss out generalities about anonymous players. For all you know the people with the biggest "F-Wad" chip on their shoulders could be people in your age bracket, looking for an outlet for their own brand of frustration.

Wow :Q (no pun intended)

1) I never said I avoid PvP gameplay to avoid the asshats. It's not the first time people have put words in my mouth. Seems a popular debate tactic for many who lack a point and the ability to argue it

I avoid PvP because I find it incredibly boring and pointless. That it's also a way to avoid most of the asshats is a nice added bonus and more evidence on the already-huge pile that a PvP focus corellates with a younger age.

2) Are you actually claiming that WoW's playerbase is not younger on average than other MMORPGs', including EQ circa 2000? :laugh: I'll stop reading your posts now

3) I've met kids who are good and mature players as well. It doesn't mean that mental maturity doesn't corellate with physical maturity, just that there are no hard and fast rules. As I've already told you, what you don't seem to understand is that we're talking about statistics here, not individual people. Obviously you've never taken a high school or college math course, never heard of a bell curve, never learned about averages or percentages... If you need help in this area, send me a PM and I'll be glad to go over it briefly with you in hopes you'll glean some understanding. If it's not enough, I simply don't have the interest to fully tutor you in the subject - but I would highly recommend learning the subject material somehow. Spouting off when you haven't the foggiest idea of the issue at hand just discredits you.

You have yet to address, what type of game would be more condusive towards your type of gameplay. Omitting a single player game of course.

I've inferred, alluded to and stated outright what type of gameplay and traits a game must have to be good, and given examples both past and future (the present holds no good MMORPGs). Read more, spout off less.

Now again before you leap to conclusions, I come from an older console RPG era. So of course I can greatly enjoy a indepth single player(read PvE) experience. The last interesting "RPG" I played was Morrowind. Before that I believe Neverwinter Nights, Baldurs Gate, and possibly a Final Fantasy title.

Entirely different, you may as well discuss the finer points of an effective fastball as it relates to making a 3-point shot.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: TGS
Do you have any information on actual statistics on the WoW player base? Perhaps something to substantiate claims of the huge divide between age groups? If anything WoW(or players) could be faulted for the lack of public policing of attitudes. Though GM's do take behavioral issues seriously if they are brought to bare. To which one "youth" was spouting off in Ironforge general chat, a good multitude of players responded in kind with "reported" claims. I later received a message from the offending player, asking if I was the "chickensh1t" that turned him into the the GM's.

GM's exist for a reason, and to which if people are causing problems they exist to help alleviate your issues.

Don't you think the playerbase for EQ was "mature" due to the fact it was a new outlet, and that people more focused in the "annoyance of others" had yet to find? I play regularly with those much younger than I. I even play with a seventeen year old kid from australia. He presents a mature attitude much greater than good deal of players I've met up with. I think your problem with PvP, is that it introduces a greater chance of engaging with the "F-Wad" factor than you care to deal with. Just because that is the route you take to avoid those circumstances, gives you no credit to toss out generalities about anonymous players. For all you know the people with the biggest "F-Wad" chip on their shoulders could be people in your age bracket, looking for an outlet for their own brand of frustration.

Wow :Q (no pun intended)
1) I never said I avoid PvP gameplay to avoid the asshats. It's not the first time people have put words in my mouth. Seems a popular debate tactic for many who lack a point and the ability to argue it

I avoid PvP because I find it incredibly boring and pointless. That it's also a way to avoid most of the asshats is a nice added bonus and more evidence on the already-huge pile that a PvP focus corellates with a younger age.

So when you said,

Originally posted by: RBachman

So, essentially, anything you like is normal and right, anything you don't is wrong - and those who like it are assholes? One might draw a conclusion about your age from that stance We're done kiddo, have fun "pwnz0r1ng t3h l33t" in the battlegrounds :thumbsup:

I must have missed the part where you addressed anything I asked of you, and the usual retort of the kiddo tatics returned.

2) Are you actually claiming that WoW's playerbase is not younger on average than other MMORPGs', including EQ circa 2000? :laugh: I'll stop reading your posts now

I'm asking where are you getting evidence beyond the anectodal. The game is marketed obvious to the widest amount of people that it can reach. It is after all a business. Besides casual observation, telling me that all "misbehaving" personalities on the internet are "Kiddos" is cute at best. Most of the people I've had issues with are in their mid to late twenties. Little Tykes? Kiddos crying to their mothers? Hardly. Honestly I would expect a greater deal of maturity from an older gamer, than of teenagers that I've run into that put the maturity of many other internet gamers to shame.

You have yet to address, what type of game would be more condusive towards your type of gameplay. Omitting a single player game of course.

I've inferred, alluded to and stated outright what type of gameplay and traits a game must have to be good, and given examples both past and present. Read more, spout off less.

Actually beyond the EQ-was-the-best-before-Sony-made-it-available-to-the-kiddos message, you haven't said much. It seems that every problem that you bring up, at least for WoW, another person states it's not the case for them or they've worked around the problems you are still hung up on.

Now again before you leap to conclusions, I come from an older console RPG era. So of course I can greatly enjoy a indepth single player(read PvE) experience. The last interesting "RPG" I played was Morrowind. Before that I believe Neverwinter Nights, Baldurs Gate, and possibly a Final Fantasy title.

Entirely different, you may as well discuss the finer points of an effective fastball as it relates to making a 3-point shot.

As to bring them up, I was addressing:

And on EQ - yeah, I sure did like it. Explaining how it was to someone who didn't experience it would be like describing color to the blind. There's currently nothing out there that comes close, and there may never be, as MMORPGs are big business now which must appeal to the masses and show a profit. Vanguard may be pretty good though, although I doubt it has much appeal to the PvP crowd, thus you likely won't try it.

Though I'm sure you were to busy trying to come up with another way try to grate on me. I had to figured that you probably would, but at least I gave you the benefit of the doubt to try and see what I was telling you. It's also fairly sad, that you are one of the few people still using belittling comments, and abusive language towards other members in which for the most part has been an interesting discussion on the break down of WoW and MMO's in general.

For someone who seems to try and rail against people who, are purported to speak for you seemingly doing just that for others seems to run strong from your side of the conversation.

 

[Zerohm]

Originally posted by: RBachman
You really don't think a simpler, easier and more casual-focused game will draw in a younger & less mature playerbase?

As you know, there are really 2 sides to the game: pre level 60 and post level 60.

Casual, simple, and easy are not words any WoW player would associate with Zul Garub, Molten Core or Blackwing Lair.

 

[CKent]

This is killin' me... two or three of the "points" you just tried to make would be irrelevant if you'd read the whole thread. No point in continuing this, why write what won't be read?

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Zerohm

Originally posted by: RBachman
You really don't think a simpler, easier and more casual-focused game will draw in a younger & less mature playerbase?

As you know, there are really 2 sides to the game: pre level 60 and post level 60.

Casual, simple, and easy are not words any WoW player would associate with Zul Garub, Molten Core or Blackwing Lair. (I believe BWL hasn't been defeated yet after months of being open)

As with the above post, I already addressed this point and am not going to repeat myself. If it wasn't read the first time it probably won't be if I try again.

 

[TGS]

Considering the thread in essence is about the merits of how good of a game WoW is.

You seem to push a stance of having major lag issues. Network related, although for WoW it is:

However, there IS lag in WoW which isn't in other MMORPGs; how long does it take you to get your mail during prime time? How long do you have to sit there waiting for the items you're selling to a vendor finally sell to him after you click?

You think the playerbase in WoW is:

Originally posted by: RBachman
Well... The game itself is good. It isn't what I want in an MMORPG, but then it wasn't meant to be. While I prefer a complex and immersive game with minimal PvP that goes heavy on alternate advancement and tradeskills, WoW is a simple and PvP-oriented game that makes everything easy, and as immersive as any game where the average player thinks saying "4 wut 2 y plz b ur ne1 u" is roleplaying... which brings me to "on the other hand"... Why play an MMORPG if not for the playerbase? And if the playerbase is so important, do you want one made up primarily of 12 year olds? WoW's is... All that being said, I'm playing it. Not because I like it, but because it's the best thing out there (which is sad). Overall I had to vote that no, it's not a good game, as I don't really enjoy it.

As for the PvPers, you can see the few posts prior to outline in crystal clear terms what you think of PvP. Not a preference as you try to claim, but an insulting attitude to those who enjoy the PvP experience as much as the PvE experience and can appreciate both sides.

While I prefer a complex and immersive game with minimal PvP that goes heavy on alternate advancement and tradeskills

So, we now know you despise the lag, the playerbase, and the PvP aspect of WoW. Why do you still play?

All that being said, I'm playing it. Not because I like it, but because it's the best thing out there (which is sad). Overall I had to vote that no, it's not a good game, as I don't really enjoy it.

Frankly I only play games that I *enjoy* playing. I would be hard pressed to play a game I didn't enjoy, at least some facet. If a game gave me as many problems as WoW does for you, it's very doubtful I would continue to be a glutton for punishment.

To this end, you still have not outline what(specifically, not vague allusions to a not-WoW message) what makes or could make a better MMO mousetrap. You off all people should know, forum goers delve into mild hyperbole from time to time, yet you are being suprised when people respond to your disparaging comments.

 

[Tremulant]

Originally posted by: TGS
Frankly I only play games that I *enjoy* playing. I would be hard pressed to play a game I didn't enjoy, at least some facet.

My feelings exactly.

If I'm not having fun with a game, I'll find something else to do.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: TGS
Frankly I only play games that I *enjoy* playing. I would be hard pressed to play a game I didn't enjoy, at least some facet. If a game gave me as many problems as WoW does for you, it's very doubtful I would continue to be a glutton for punishment.

I've gone over this as well, and in my very first post to this thread no less. Why must so many people view reading the way superman views kryptonite? *sigh*

I generally abhor internet namecalling, but I've exhausted my explanatory resources and anyone with a brain would by now have read & responded to them. TGS, you are a true idiot. Congratulations.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: TGS
Frankly I only play games that I *enjoy* playing. I would be hard pressed to play a game I didn't enjoy, at least some facet. If a game gave me as many problems as WoW does for you, it's very doubtful I would continue to be a glutton for punishment.

I've gone over this as well, and in my very first post to this thread no less. Why must so many people view reading the way superman views kryptonite? *sigh*

I generally abhor internet namecalling, but I've exhausted my explanatory resources and anyone with a brain would by now have read & responded to them. TGS, you are a true idiot. Congratulations.

Don't you find a great deal of irony in the fact that I actually quoted your first post in this thread, only to ask from the subsequent posts why would you still play WoW for all the gripes you have? I wouldn't touch WoW with a ten foot pole, even if it was the greatest thing ever devised for the MMO genre if I didn't enjoy the experience. I'm asking you why are you such a glutton for punishment? What grandiose advancement(s) would the MMO world have to accomplish such a perfect game?

Edit:

Originally posted by: RBachman
Well... The game itself is good. ... All that being said, I'm playing it. Not because I like it, but because it's the best thing out there (which is sad). Overall I had to vote that no, it's not a good game, as I don't really enjoy it.

(You could see where people would be confused about your position here perhaps?)
/edit

I think it would be hard pressed upon you to come up with reasons why you even log into the WoW, let alone subject yourself to the hours of tedium to deal with the "Kiddos" you oftenly meet with.

Oh I almost forgot to mention as for,

I generally abhor internet namecalling, but I've exhausted my explanatory resources and anyone with a brain would by now have read & responded to them. TGS, you are a true idiot. Congratulations.

I wouldn't try to flatter yourself, as once the PvP floodgates were opened the none to subtle glib remarks had already started to push forward.

 

[Jeff7181]

Two tips that will increase your enjoyment of the game...

1. "/leave 1"
2. "/leave 2"

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Two tips that will increase your enjoyment of the game...

1. "/leave 1"
2. "/leave 2"

/leave 2? ZOMG! How will you ever score that uber BoE blue gear to twink out your level 29 rogue alt for BG?!?

 

[Saint Nick]

are you just saying it sucks because you don't want to buy in to all the hype? or do you really think it is terrible? I think its a great game but i refuse to play it because i don't want to be part of it. i don't want to be associated with it at all. its my way of sticking it to the man.... but its not a bad game, really.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: jndietz
are you just saying it sucks because you don't want to buy in to all the hype? or do you really think it is terrible? I think its a great game but i refuse to play it because i don't want to be part of it. i don't want to be associated with it at all. its my way of sticking it to the man.... but its not a bad game, really.

Really... most mmorpg vets do not like world of warcraft.

The community is terrible, the game is too easy, and the quests are horribly repetitive.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: TGS
Don't you find a great deal of irony in the fact that I actually quoted your first post in this thread, only to ask from the subsequent posts why would you still play WoW for all the gripes you have?

Ironic? No... I do find it sad that you quoted a post which you obviously didn't read though, since it answers the question you're asking.

 

[TGS]

You say "The game itself is good.", call the game easy and purely PvP focused, call the community primarily 12 year olds, and then you say "it's not a good game".

What am I missing? I think what you're missing is a reason to subject yourself to WoW. I have still yet to hear a reason, of why you *subject* your vast online persona to such a trite game such as WoW.

I find a great deal of humor in the fact you attempt to imply your words carry a message, beyond what is very much quite an opinionated stance towards WoW. I don't try to insult others when they don't agree with mine. Other than asking you to reread my statements do you see any ill remarks towards anyone, yourself included?

I keep trying to get the point past you, that you are making broad generalizations of WoW players based on anecdotal evidence. I think that you seem to be missing that point. I'm not 12. I don't have to sully myself by stooping to insulting others to get my message across, nor would I want to. Frankly I don't tend to deal with people as such, because it's insulting to me to think that someone cannot carrying on a conversation without such menial behavior. I also like both the PvE, and PvP aspects of WoW. Could I be your statistical *exception to the rule*? Perhaps. Or perhaps you could be wrong about the 90% of WoW players you don't deal with regularly enough. Strangely enough I heard a great deal of statistics were made on the spot...

So in an effort to see why people such as yourself, cannot seem to stop playing a game for which they carry such a great amount of distain, I'll ask why do you keep playing WoW if you don't enjoy it? I fully realize you gave a half hearted answer in your first post. I don't understand *why you play the game you see do have so much discontent with*. I'm sure you wouldn't mind explaning that conundrum.