Donald Trump fanboys found guilty in anti-muslim terror plot in Kansas

[loafbred]

It's easy to find a group of religious people and motivate them to violence. The FBI is a bit like Hamas or Hezbollah, radicalizing people, offering support and encouragement to terrorism, but worse because presumably those organizations are sincere and don't go "lol, jk. You shouldn't have taken the bait. Now you're fcked, friend"

I think you have a distorted view of how an investigation like this one typically begins. They usually begin with concerned friends/family/neighbors/coworkers, etc, informing police of valid concerns. Experts are consulted and ultimately assigned to verify those concerns. If those experts see a conspiracy in the making, the shit hits the fan.

You seem to imagine an entirely different scenario as being typical, with much emphasis on "imagine": Agents out looking for targets of opportunity, to keep the workflow moving. I think the work comes to them, by the truckload.

 

[justoh]

I think you have a distorted view of how an investigation like this one typically begins. They usually begin with concerned friends/family/neighbors/coworkers, etc, informing police of valid concerns. Experts are consulted and ultimately assigned to verify those concerns. If those experts see a conspiracy in the making, the shit hits the fan.

You seem to imagine an entirely different scenario as being typical, with much emphasis on "imagine": Agents out looking for targets of opportunity, to keep the workflow moving. I think the work comes to them, by the truckload.

The work is largely random. The kind of people doing this sort of thing will attend rehab sessions in order to befriend recovering addicts, ask them where to score, encourage them to relapse and buy something, use the drugs together, and then bust out the handcuffs. Why would they be pursuing this "war on terrorism" with any more sensitivity, or any more justly? No wonder they can release all these stats showing how many times they've foiled terrorist plots since the dept of homeland security. How many were the result of sting operations? All of them? Maybe even more.

 

[fskimospy]

The work is largely random. The kind of people doing this sort of thing will attend rehab sessions in order to befriend recovering addicts, ask them where to score, encourage them to relapse and buy something, use the drugs together, and then bust out the handcuffs. Why would they be pursuing this "war on terrorism" with any more sensitivity, or any more justly? No wonder they can release all these stats showing how many times they've foiled terrorist plots since the dept of homeland security. How many were the result of sting operations? All of them? Maybe even more.

I agree, almost certainly more than all of them.

 

[HomerJS]

Justoh pulls out the Chris Hansen defense for terrorists. It was a setup.

 

[justoh]

Justoh pulls out the Chris Hansen defense for terrorists. It was a setup.

Nice try. That's actually Neil Patrick Harris.

 

[Noah Abrams]

So is this potential terrorism? Or do these guys have mental illnesses, had bad childhoods? I don’t know. Seems like it all depends on who the culprits are rather than the act itself.

 

[HomerJS]

So is this potential terrorism? Or do these guys have mental illnesses, had bad childhoods? I don’t know. Seems like it all depends on who the culprits are rather than the act itself.

Here is the Trump and justoh scale

 

[glenn1]

I think it's a lot less prevalent today but it hasn't changed in 50 years-

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-convince-the-lowest-white-man/

Some people are just easier to convince than others. The predatory financial elite has used race as a weapon of class warfare for a very long while in this country. It really doesn't matter because we're all just numbers (or just that other N-word) to them. Nothing personal. Strictly business. FYGM.

Wow, we better hurry up and implement your evergreen solution to everything of taxing the rich at confiscatory rates in order to give welfare to people like this. If only they had a few more food stamps they'd be too busy spending their loot to have time to plot things like blowing up Muslims, right?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Wow, we better hurry up and implement your evergreen solution to everything of taxing the rich at confiscatory rates in order to give welfare to people like this. If only they had a few more food stamps they'd be too busy spending their loot to have time to plot things like blowing up Muslims, right?

Agreed, nutrition and mental health are related.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Here is the Trump and justoh scale

Ha, good one. But the sad part is that it is not just the scale for vile creature in WH. This is the standard mainstream scale. So this case is definitely of mentally disturbed people.

 

[Jhhnn]

Wow, we better hurry up and implement your evergreen solution to everything of taxing the rich at confiscatory rates in order to give welfare to people like this. If only they had a few more food stamps they'd be too busy spending their loot to have time to plot things like blowing up Muslims, right?

Nice flight of fantasy. Jim Crow ruled the South for 100 years using exactly the methods I mentioned- divide & conquer using Race as the wedge to do it. Working people of all colors have much greater common interest with each other than with the financial elite.

 

[justoh]

Ha, good one. But the sad part is that it is not just the scale for vile creature in WH. This is the standard mainstream scale. So this case is definitely of mentally disturbed people.

This one's better. Cmon now. Family guy? eww

 

[zinfamous]

Similar to how they catch some of the crazy Muslim terrorists... you've got a problem with that?

I do, actually, because in several of these cases, none of those "crazy muslim terrorists" had no violent dispositions, for any purpose, until egged into action over years by an informant. Essentially creating criminals, just to arrest them, is not something anyone should support. This is called entrapment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/nyregion/16terror.html

late edit: forgot to add that "no" in the first sentence! D:

 

[MomentsofSanity]

I do, actually, because in several of these cases, none of those "crazy muslim terrorists" had violent dispositions, for any purpose, until egged into action over years by an informant. Essentially creating criminals, just to arrest them, is not something anyone should support. This is called entrapment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/nyregion/16terror.html

It's called FREEDUMB!! 'MURICA!!! Fuck Yeah!

 

[HomerJS]

This one's better. Cmon now. Family guy? eww

Wow. How could Harris Faulkner just sit there and listen to that.

 

[justoh]

Wow. How could Harris Faulkner just sit there and listen to that.

2009. OT but speaks again to why when someone comes out in 2018 pretending to have had some epiphany, leaving fox, the correct response is "lol, what?" and not "how brave. I hope there are more to follow."

And toe-tapping, patriotic country music. "When I see people on my tv taking shots at uncle sam, I hope they alllllways remember why they can. Because we'd all be speaking german, living under the... flag of japan, if it wasn't for the good lord and the man." On fox "news," live performance. The only thing worse than country music is probably Family Guy. Also fox.... hmmm........

 

[bshole]

I do, actually, because in several of these cases, none of those "crazy muslim terrorists" had violent dispositions, for any purpose, until egged into action over years by an informant. Essentially creating criminals, just to arrest them, is not something anyone should support. This is called entrapment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/nyregion/16terror.html

So you are on the side of both the "crazy muslim terrorists" and the terrorists who want to blow muslims up?

 

[loafbred]

The work is largely random. The kind of people doing this sort of thing will attend rehab sessions in order to befriend recovering addicts, ask them where to score, encourage them to relapse and buy something, use the drugs together, and then bust out the handcuffs. Why would they be pursuing this "war on terrorism" with any more sensitivity, or any more justly?

You won't get any argument from me on how disgusting the drug policing tactics are in this country. Of course, chronic heroin and meth addicts aren't to be taken lightly. Let's not compare that to the FBI infiltrating groups of f***wit white supremacists conspiring to bomb neighborhoods.

 

[Aikouka]

I've usually found that most problems arise because people want the simple answer, and in doing so, they apply it in the broadest stroke possible. They'll see/hear someone refer to Islam as "the religion of terror", and all of a sudden, Muslims are bad people. No matter how you look at it, it's a rash and unfair generalization of millions of people. It's kind of like what happens when I talk to conservatives about politics. Within about five minutes, I almost always get some remark about things being "socialism", because that's the easy, go-to boogeyman. We've been trained to just accept information, and consequently, our critical thinking is in the proverbial toilet.

 

[justoh]

So you are on the side of both the "crazy muslim terrorists" and the terrorists who want to blow muslims up?

The anti-entrapment side?

 

[justoh]

I've usually found that most problems arise because people want the simple answer, and in doing so, they apply it in the broadest stroke possible. They'll see/hear someone refer to Islam as "the religion of terror", and all of a sudden, Muslims are bad people. No matter how you look at it, it's a rash and unfair generalization of millions of people. It's kind of like what happens when I talk to conservatives about politics. Within about five minutes, I almost always get some remark about things being "socialism", because that's the easy, go-to boogeyman. We've been trained to just accept information, and consequently, our critical thinking is in the proverbial toilet.

Obviously Islam is a religion of terror, but it's also obvious that Muslims are victims. As are Christians. It's a totalitarian belief system. "A celestial North Korea."

You talk about unfair generalizations, but it's only other religious people doing that. Christians hating on muslims and vice versa based on redundant stupidity. Neither of the followers are necessarily "bad people." The religions are objectively bad. People are more complicated.

 

[Jhhnn]

Gotta love the entrapment bullshit. That was the basis of the defense & the jury didn't buy it, so why should anybody else? We weren't in the courtroom & have zero basis to question their judgement. It's not like Wichita is a place where Murica hatin' Leftists will pack the jury, either. They deliberated less than a day.

The defendants can join the Aryan Brotherhood once they're behind bars together.

 

[woolfe9998]

Point of clarification about entrapment as a legal defense: it requires that the defendant not be the type of person who is generally vulnerable/susceptible to committing the sort of crime he is charged with to work. The irony is Justoh arguing that they are targeting vulnerable people, like people with a history of drug trafficking, or people who constantly say they want to kill Muslims. Those are the very sort of people law enforcement is allowed to ensnare in a sting because they will likely not get off on an entrapment defense. The rationale here is that the sting should ensnare people who present a legitimate risk of offending at some point in time even without the sting, in order to prevent a future crime.

A classic case where the entrapment defense works is say an average middle class Joe with trouble paying his bills suddenly has a huge pile of money dangled in his face by under-cover law enforcement in exchange for say, being a drug courier on a single occasion. That isn't the same as someone with a demonstrated past practice or stated interest in committing the crime in question. For those types, entrapment won't work as a defense.

Remember, people who are targeted by sting operations can always say no to committing a crime. That is their first and best defense.

 

[zinfamous]

So you are on the side of both the "crazy muslim terrorists" and the terrorists who want to blow muslims up?

I'm on the side of recognizing that the way many of these stings are conducted sit in a very grey, extra-judicial and disturbing constitutional realm.

Not to say that these methods should be wholly tossed out, but in some cases, the reality of the way they went down is suspect, if not fraudulent. ....fraudulent isn't the right word, because "otherwise innocent" people (had an informant not intentionally radicalized them) are getting life sentences and maybe death for taking a path that likely would have never come their way.

 

[justoh]

Point of clarification about entrapment as a legal defense: it requires that the defendant not be the type of person who is generally vulnerable/susceptible to committing the sort of crime he is charged with to work. The irony is Justoh arguing that they are targeting vulnerable people, like people with a history of drug trafficking, or people who constantly say they want to kill Muslims. Those are the very sort of people law enforcement is allowed to ensnare in a sting because they will likely not get off on an entrapment defense. The rationale here is that the sting should ensnare people who present a legitimate risk of offending at some point in time even without the sting, in order to prevent a future crime.

A classic case where the entrapment defense works is say an average middle class Joe with trouble paying his bills suddenly has a huge pile of money dangled in his face by under-cover law enforcement in exchange for say, being a drug courier on a single occasion. That isn't the same as someone with a demonstrated past practice or stated interest in committing the crime in question. For those types, entrapment won't work as a defense.

Remember, people who are targeted by sting operations can always say no to committing a crime. That is their first and best defense.

Nah, the problem is you went to a tier 4 toilet school. The problem is precisely that it's allowed by US jurisprudence, when it isn't in civilized nations. It's no good pointing to ridiculous precedent, like some tier 4 us rankings robot.