Don't let a non car person borrow your DCT equipped car!

[npaladin-2000]

Yes we all get how they function.

But it's not the same experience at all just because it happens to use clutches. Have you ever driven a real manual transmission? The clutch and the shift pattern and rev matching yourself are part of the experience.

I think you meant to say "annoyance" rather than "experience." I'm sure you're proud of the skill you've mastered, but I'm not (yes I have driven a manual, not impressed). Fact is, "better" drivers use faster transmissions than a manual, they'll use a DCT or a performance automatic, so they spend less time freewheeling on a clutch, and more time putting power to the pavement thanks to faster shifting.

Manual drivers might be proud of the skill they feel they have mastered, yeah, ok, but it doesn't make you a better driver. Frankly that ancient, outdated tranny might be more of a distraction than the mochachino the guy in the Crapolla is drinking.

 

[BassBomb]

I really hate these dynamic transmissions which go based on your initial press rather than your continued or change pressure

Drove my Fiance Elantra Coupe and it has this problem. Power seems non existent (maybe related to fuel savings?) Also a rental Altima with CVT had the same thing

 

[Elganja]

Yes we all get how they function.

But it's not the same experience at all just because it happens to use clutches. Have you ever driven a real manual transmission? The clutch and the shift pattern and rev matching yourself are part of the experience.

yes I have... I've had a couple mustangs (99 cobra and 03 cobra) and a c6z06 along with a few motorcycles (600rr, 1000rr and 08 hayabusa)... I don't miss them at all compared to the dct in my gtr

I don't care how fast you think you are at shifting (in general... not you specifically)... a dct will be faster and cleaner

edit: should have also said I'm more of a drag racer then twistys person (like 60/40)

 

[pauldun170]

Transmission that requires no user involvement = automatic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission

Transmission that requires MANUAL intervention to change gears = manual

The engineering of the transmissions, whether it has a torque converter or a computer hydraulically changing the gears for you is irrelevant.

If it automatically changes gears for you...its automatic no matter how much the marketing teams of auto manufacturers convince you that you new car has a "special transmission"

 

[Imported]

Transmission that requires no user involvement = automatic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission

Transmission that requires MANUAL intervention to change gears = manual

The engineering of the transmissions, whether it has a torque converter or a computer hydraulically changing the gears for you is irrelevant.

If it automatically changes gears for you...its automatic no matter how much the marketing teams of auto manufacturers convince you that you new car has a "special transmission"

What about flappy paddles?

 

[npaladin-2000]

Transmission that requires no user involvement = automatic

By that definition there is no such thing as an automatic transmission.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

I think you meant to say "annoyance" rather than "experience." I'm sure you're proud of the skill you've mastered, but I'm not (yes I have driven a manual, not impressed). Fact is, "better" drivers use faster transmissions than a manual, they'll use a DCT or a performance automatic, so they spend less time freewheeling on a clutch, and more time putting power to the pavement thanks to faster shifting.

Manual drivers might be proud of the skill they feel they have mastered, yeah, ok, but it doesn't make you a better driver. Frankly that ancient, outdated tranny might be more of a distraction than the mochachino the guy in the Crapolla is drinking.

No, I'm sure he meant experience. Believe or not but some people actually enjoy driving manual and the interactions it gives them between driver and car. Given that, nowadays, I will admit that it's not for everyone. Some people find driving to be fairly stressful and driving stick, especially if you're new to it, amps it up by quite a bit because of all the extra things you have to think about along with the possibility of stalling.

I will argue that driving in a manual car makes you more attentive than you would in an automatic. I learned how to drive in an auto and spent 7 years with it. Just about a year ago I picked up manual and to go from having auto as the only thing you've known and to become so accustomed to it and then transitioning to manual was pretty stressful (but enjoyable). There was just so many more things I had to consider when driving that I normally would not have. During the beginning I could barely hold a decent conversation and would, more often than not, just not talk with someone while driving because I was looking out for so many things. Of course over time I became more use to it and it's pretty much second nature now but there are definitely some different (better) driving habits that I've picked up due to it.

So contrary to popular belief, not everyone that drives stick thinks that people can shift faster than a computer and it largely doesn't matter how 'fast' your transmission is on the streets but more about the driving experience as a whole.

 

[vi edit]

No question that growing up and using a manual transmission for years makes you a more attentive driver. Your mind is always one step ahead of what could happen. That vehicle you are behind, what happens if he slams on his brakes? You can't just mash yours too..you'll stall out. You'll have to either dump the clutch along with the brakes or knock it out of gear and then hit the brakes. And then to recover know which gear you want to be in without stalling again.

Or in basic driving just a bit more attention given to things like stoplights where you have to be a half second ahead in thought than the guy behind you since you need to engage a clutch, drop it into gear and go. If you are jacking around on a phone you are making a slower takeoff even slower. When you go to take a turn you have to factor in speed an traffic to know which gear is optimal for your situation.

Ect.

There is more thought you have to put into driving a manual that isn't required with the "on/off" nature of an automatic.

 

[npaladin-2000]

So in other words, you're paying more attention to the transmission, because it's more complex to operate. What you fail to admit is that this leaves less attention for the road and what's going on on it, it doesn't make you MORE aware of what's going on on the road. When one has to contemplate the multitude of scenarios and different complex reactions to it, one just doesn't have enough attention span to OH CRA*WHAMMO*

So yes, there is a question about whether using a manual transmission makes you a more attentive driver in a general sense. Assuming you have 100% of your attention span available to you, the more of it you apply to any auxiliary function that is NOT driving, the less you have for driving. It doesn't matter if that auxiliary function is texting, drinking your doubelshot mochachino, or operating your transmission. The more complex the task, the more attention it takes from the road, and the various very solid things you can run into.

So again, if you're good at the skill fine, if you're proud of it, OK. But it doesn't make you a "better" driver. Being a better driver makes you a better driver, not being a better shifter.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

So in other words, you're paying more attention to the transmission, because it's more complex to operate. What you fail to admit is that this leaves less attention for the road and what's going on on it, it doesn't make you MORE aware of what's going on on the road. When one has to contemplate the multitude of scenarios and different complex reactions to it, one just doesn't have enough attention span to OH CRA*WHAMMO*

So yes, there is a question about whether using a manual transmission makes you a more attentive driver in a general sense. Assuming you have 100% of your attention span available to you, the more of it you apply to any auxiliary function that is NOT driving, the less you have for driving. It doesn't matter if that auxiliary function is texting, drinking your doubelshot mochachino, or operating your transmission. The more complex the task, the more attention it takes from the road, and the various very solid things you can run into.

So again, if you're good at the skill fine, if you're proud of it, OK. But it doesn't make you a "better" driver. Being a better driver makes you a better driver, not being a better shifter.

No one said you're paying more attention to the transmission. What you're paying more attention to is conditions around you because you're more aware of how you'll have to react due to the type of transmission. No one is staring at the shifter when they shift.

What people are paying more attention to is the surrounding drivers and how they might act, conditions in road speed and surfaces as you need to think about what gear you may need to be in, or watching the lights as you need a little more time to start up.

Given that you stated that you've driven manual, I'm sure you're aware that you're not more focused on what the car is doing (once you're moving) but more about what other people are doing that may cause you to either stall out or do something you're not familiar with doing in a manual car. If not then I'm not sure how much you've actually driven one.

Also this attentiveness becomes second nature over time unlike staring at a cell phone or eating/drinking food in the car.

There are many aspects to being a better driver, all we're (or at least I'm) saying is it makes you more attentive one.

 

[vi edit]

Incorrect. You are applying more attention the environment as a pre-prep for anything you may need to do. That extra awareness pays off in the form of simply being...well more aware of what is going on.

Auto transmissions often lull you into complacency and you start dicking around with your phone, zoning out, falling into bad habits, ect. Stuff you really can't do as easily in a car that requires somewhat constant attention.

Being more attentive is a component of being a better driver, but not all that goes into being a good one.

 

[KentState]

Makes you wonder why so many people don't use a turn signal. Takes to much awareness to signal, turn the wheel, check the mirrors, look for pedestrians and use two pedals at the same time. Good thing we are not adding shifting gear into the madness of piloting a 2 ton vehicle around. Now that I think of it, there should only be an accelerator pedal with always active braking.

 

[MagickMan]

Actually, I think this is the part they don't like. Because all of a sudden their whole reason for manual-tranny-eliteness and skillz is now moot, a computer can shift a manual better than they can.

I will of course get flamed by these people for blowing their cover, but oh well.

Or, it could just be because we find manuals to be more fun. But no, go on making an ass of yourself, you're doing a great job. :thumbsup:

I think you meant to say "annoyance" rather than "experience." I'm sure you're proud of the skill you've mastered, but I'm not (yes I have driven a manual, not impressed). Fact is, "better" drivers use faster transmissions than a manual, they'll use a DCT or a performance automatic, so they spend less time freewheeling on a clutch, and more time putting power to the pavement thanks to faster shifting.

Manual drivers might be proud of the skill they feel they have mastered, yeah, ok, but it doesn't make you a better driver. Frankly that ancient, outdated tranny might be more of a distraction than the mochachino the guy in the Crapolla is drinking.

Not everything is about shaving another .1 second off, and not everyone gives a rat's fart about track times. Many of us want to feel the involvement that comes with driving a manual, so piss off.

 

[Elganja]

at the end of the day, everything for me is down to performance and literally every .1 second counts FOR ME... with advanced DCT transmissions such as my GTR, I don't see myself ever looking back

i can understand people who like it for the experience... i guess FOR ME the allure of a manual wears off quickly... hell i wish my jeep was automatic (for offroad purposes it would make life a ton easier)

 

[Jumpem]

The DCT in the $17K car is there for a small bump in fuel economy.

This.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

My Jetta TDI and GTI both had DSG transmissions. I don't think my mom (whose the most "Wait...why is it doing that" kind of person ever) didn't even notice.

 

[NutBucket]

The DCT in the $17K car is there for a small bump in fuel economy.

CVT accomplishes the same thing...probably an even bigger bump. A cheap CVT is far better than a cheap DCT...and will last longer too. Isn't the replacement cost for those two clutches pretty ridiculous?

 

[nerp]

Ever driven a modern ZF "traditional" automatic...does all the same things save for being faster than (ok, or as fast as) a DCT. Hell, even a 370Z rev matches its manual.

When you tell them it's the same as a manual, what do you tell them when you get to the clutch part? That's certainly not like a manual.

For the record, I love DCTs. Just prefer a manual generally speaking.

Ahh, the ZF. 8 Gears, super fast shifting, smooooooth. Love it.

 

[npaladin-2000]

CVT accomplishes the same thing...probably an even bigger bump. A cheap CVT is far better than a cheap DCT...and will last longer too. Isn't the replacement cost for those two clutches pretty ridiculous?

Both types of transmissions are generally treated as sealed units meant last the lifetime of the car, without even a way to change the fluids.

CVTs have infinite ratios but are also much higher friction than a DCT.

 

[skyking]

Part of the appeal of a traditional clutch equipped manual is my ability to service it. I am guessing the failure modes in DCT are far more complex.

 

[CraigRT]

Actually, I think this is the part they don't like. Because all of a sudden their whole reason for manual-tranny-eliteness and skillz is now moot, a computer can shift a manual better than they can.

I will of course get flamed by these people for blowing their cover, but oh well.

Why does no one understand this...
I do not care how fast a computer can shift my car.... In any way, at all.
If you really ENJOY DRIVING, manual is much more enjoyable.

I do not give a shit if a DCT or whatever stupid automatic can shift 1,2,3 seconds, or 1 minute faster than I can, I enjoy driving my car, not having it do all the work so I just hold onto a steering wheel. What fun would that be?

For pure driving experience, there will never be a replacement for rowing you own... Now shut it!

 

[michal1980]

Why does no one understand this...
I do not care how fast a computer can shift my car.... In any way, at all.
If you really ENJOY DRIVING, manual is much more enjoyable.

I do not give a shit if a DCT or whatever stupid automatic can shift 1,2,3 seconds, or 1 minute faster than I can, I enjoy driving my car, not having it do all the work so I just hold onto a steering wheel. What fun would that be?

For pure driving experience, there will never be a replacement for rowing you own... Now shut it!

Says you.

PS like the climate warming crowd changed their tune to climate change.

The manual guys went from sticks perform better, to its about the 'experience' . Esperance's are individual, yet you manual fanboi's seem to have your nose's up in the air like anyone not driving a stick is some sort of lapper.

 

[npaladin-2000]

Says you.

PS like the climate warming crowd changed their tune to climate change.

The manual guys went from sticks perform better, to its about the 'experience' . Esperance's are individual, yet you manual fanboi's seem to have your nose's up in the air like anyone not driving a stick is some sort of lapper.

Yeah the attitude gets a little sickening sometimes, especially since there ARE really excellent drivers out there that could run rings around their "experience" and don't use a manual, and have no interest in using a manual. This is of course sacrilege to the Church of the Almighty Clutch Pedal.

 

[pauldun170]

at the end of the day, everything for me is down to performance and literally every .1 second counts FOR ME... with advanced DCT transmissions such as my GTR, I don't see myself ever looking back

i can understand people who like it for the experience... i guess FOR ME the allure of a manual wears off quickly... hell i wish my jeep was automatic (for offroad purposes it would make life a ton easier)

In a car with a GTR mission statement, a DCT, electronic controls+ drivers aids make sense. If you are chasing numbers on a track then the powertrain offered in the GTR is your best tool.
When driven on public roads a GTR is as fast as an 89 Miata.
Try and prove otherwise and you'll get pulled over for breaking the law.


In a car like a Volkswagon or Ford, a DCT is just another automatic with some extra perks over other transmissions but with less refinement and finesse.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

Yeah the attitude gets a little sickening sometimes, especially since there ARE really excellent drivers out there that could run rings around their "experience" and don't use a manual, and have no interest in using a manual. This is of course sacrilege to the Church of the Almighty Clutch Pedal.

lmao, I think you have a poor understanding of what experience means in this context...