Don't you hate it when a mechanical engineer tells you that computer programming is NOT engineering?

[da loser]

the biggest difference is the engineer's design is based in nature and unpredictable to some extent, with endless possibilities. whereas a programmer's design is abstract and exact, always a predictiable outcome with limited possibilities. it's the essence of life that divides us.

engineers = applied physicists, programmers = applied mathematicians

both are hard, and admired professions. just remember, programmers need engineers, engineers don't need programmers. therefore engineers > programmers

 

[JulesMaximus]

If it ever happens to me I'll be sure to tell you how I feel.

 

[thereaderrabbit]

Originally posted by: da loser
the biggest difference is the engineer's design is based in nature and unpredictable to some extent, with endless possibilities. whereas a programmer's design is abstract and exact, always a predictable outcome with limited possibilities. it's the essence of life that divides us.

engineers = applied physicists, programmers = applied mathematicians

both are hard, and admired professions. just remember, programmers need engineers, engineers don't need programmers. therefore engineers > programmers

The problems that many programmers face today are not always exact. Data can be confusing, wrong and delivered in the strangest of ways. The response to that data can be complex, but in most cases the response cannot be abstract. The response must be real and clear, but in a world that requires real time response with multiple sources of input and state- the result could be quite unpredictable.

The problems I face at work require engineering to solve. Unpredictability is a fact of life, but good engineering deals with that. The programmers that I work with apply lessons from materials and physics in complex algorithms to remove unpredictability from the most complex of tasks. When programmers do their job right they engineer solutions to complex problems that remove unpredictability. Calling them anything less than engineers would be insulting.

-Reader

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: shortylickens
The software is a tool for him to do real engineering.
Engineers have many tools.
Micrometers for example.

:thumbsup:

I'm a "software engineer" but I don't consider myself an engineer by any means.

Computer engineers typically refer to those who design the hardware. I know my computer engineering curriculum is very focused on physical properties as well, and not just circuit design, with a very very light focus on programming. (pretty much you just have to take a class on object oriented programming and some on data structures)

Oh, and if a computer engineer messes up, it may not usually result in death or destruction, but the financial loss for a company can be far worse that a delayed building or often even a collapsed building.

Comp sci folks are basically math majors with a focus on programming. Algorithms and statistics. On the other hand, I'd say it's arguable that the work they do, along with physicists and other think tanks, can be harder than what just about any engineer does.

Oh, and software engineering is not controlled, as you don't have full control over the platform or even the software environment it runs on. AFAIK though, no school includes software engineering with their typical engineering curriculum.

And if you really want to debate who is and isn't an engineer, just look up the dictionary definition of the word.

 

[733SHiFTY]

Originally posted by: Alkesh
my roomate is a mech engineer. He's a cocky SOB who thinks he's the sh!t. He hates on social science majors because we have so much free time. I could have been an engineer if i wanted to, but i enjoy going out and having fun. he would always ask me to stay inside and drink with him at the apartment. This semester no go.

4 years from now he will have a job and you wont.

 

[JetBlack69]

Ok, I didn't read the whole thread, so if this was posted before, sorry.

History's Worst Software Bugs

Software bugs can cause disasters.

I'm a computer engineer and a computer science major.

I would say that building very complicated programs, like operating systems or CAD tools are the works of engineers, but I'm bias.

 

[sxr7171]

Engineering is the application of mathmatics to create things. Logic is a branch of math and a piece of software is a product.

Saying something like the ME the OP is referring to is like saying real engineers are only the people who drive trains. I'm not an engineer so I have no vested interest in my comments. I went to an engineering school and I have to say that I tend to hear a lot of retarded one-upmanship comments from engineers. There's no doubt that engineers are very smart people on average, so it surprises me sometimes to hear the stupidity that comes out of their mouths sometimes.

 

[Dedpuhl]

Originally posted by: gopunk
1) don't see where it says it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you're accredited, but you're welcome to point it out, i didn't look that hard

There was a thread that addressed this issue. It is "technically" illegal in several states to call yourself an "engineer" if you have not obtained a Professional Engineering License from the proper state board.

found it, look for my posts

I am an Engineer Intern. Hopefully this will change when I take the test in October.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: Dedpuhl

Originally posted by: gopunk
1) don't see where it says it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you're accredited, but you're welcome to point it out, i didn't look that hard

There was a thread that addressed this issue. It is "technically" illegal in several states to call yourself an "engineer" if you have not obtained a Professional Engineering License from the proper state board.

found it, look for my posts

I am an Engineer Intern. Hopefully this will change when I take the test in October.

I don't understand the reasoning behind that though, because a lot of engineering disciplines don't even require you to take the PE. Are they (they being the authorities who made that rule) telling me the lead chip architects at Intel, AMD, Nvidia, etc. can't call themselves engineers just because they haven't taken that exam, which would do them absolutely no good in that industry?

 

[Dedpuhl]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Dedpuhl

Originally posted by: gopunk
1) don't see where it says it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you're accredited, but you're welcome to point it out, i didn't look that hard

There was a thread that addressed this issue. It is "technically" illegal in several states to call yourself an "engineer" if you have not obtained a Professional Engineering License from the proper state board.

found it, look for my posts

I am an Engineer Intern. Hopefully this will change when I take the test in October.

I don't understand the reasoning behind that though, because a lot of engineering disciplines don't even require you to take the PE. Are they (they being the authorities who made that rule) telling me the lead chip architects at Intel, AMD, Nvidia, etc. can't call themselves engineers just because they haven't taken that exam, which would do them absolutely no good in that industry?

Technically, yes....in many states.

No one is required to take the PE. There are things you legally cannot do w/out a license:

1. stamp/certify documents
2. testify as an expert witness in any branch of engineering (this may have changed)
3. open your own engineering/consulting firm

Some engineers (Industrial comes to mind) rarely take the PE. Other engineers (Civil) need the license to move up the ladder.

 

[Finalnight]

I'll take the third route, be the manager that tells the engineer that marketing said no go on his design so he has to redo it, lol, me=evil..

 

[white]

this thread needs a poll.

 

[brjames]

I see a lot of CivE's and ME's posting how you need to have a certification to be a REAL engineer. Let me just state my opinion that a certification is only necessary to the extent that your field is mature. CivE is the oldest engineering discipline (how long have roads and building been around?), ME has also been around for maybe two hundred+ years. EE (which is what I am) has been around since the late 1800's, while Software Engineering has been around since roughly World War II. The older and more mature the discipline the less innovation.

(Note that I'm not saying there's no innovation, but if you took one each of a CivE, ME, EE, or Software Engineer from 40 years ago and magically time-shifted them to today, which ones would have the most to learn new to become employable in today's market?)

As an EE, the kind of jobs that certification qualifies you for are really the least interesting jobs out there. My "Ivy League" EE program didnt even mention PE certification, I guess it assumed all its graduates would get interesting jobs . When I was interviewing for jobs I interviewed at one place that placed a strong emphasis on PE certification. They explained the job as mostly plugging into formulas and meeting specs. I was horrified ( I tried to cover it up, but I didn't get the job my loss).

On a personal note, I work on a radar system. The software engineers are a vital part of the team. Every discipline is represented and we could not complete the radar without either one of them. We're all engineers working to build something extremely complicated, and I think that we're all deserving of the "engineer" title.

However, I still prefer to refer to software engineers as "software weenies".

 

[Rayden]

Computer Science is not engineering by any means. It is much more related to math and science than it is to engineering. I would consider programming to be similar.

Now using programming to build software, while still not engineering, is only related to computer science. It involves a lot more design, structure, management, and process.

 

[sxr7171]

Definition of Engineering: the practical application of science to commerce or industry. They don't teach you this?

 

[bleuless]

computer science is not just programming
computer science is not just engineering
how ever, all 3 can over lap one another.

engineer is just like a rank or a person that specializes in certain things, kinda like you would call a policeman sergent as well as a military sergent.

for those that says computer programing shouldn't be called engineering blatantly, what if they start calling them architects instead?
"you can have the damn engineering title, we are architects instead!!! b!tch!"

LOL
btw, i am a techincal support engineer (what i do ranges from coding, solving problems an array of network and system related problems, to helping ppl and lastly, i help building my company's empire, so yeah i call myself an engineer and am proud of it)

 

[jinduy]

Originally posted by: thereaderrabbit

Originally posted by: da loser
the biggest difference is the engineer's design is based in nature and unpredictable to some extent, with endless possibilities. whereas a programmer's design is abstract and exact, always a predictable outcome with limited possibilities. it's the essence of life that divides us.

engineers = applied physicists, programmers = applied mathematicians

both are hard, and admired professions. just remember, programmers need engineers, engineers don't need programmers. therefore engineers > programmers

The problems that many programmers face today are not always exact. Data can be confusing, wrong and delivered in the strangest of ways. The response to that data can be complex, but in most cases the response cannot be abstract. The response must be real and clear, but in a world that requires real time response with multiple sources of input and state- the result could be quite unpredictable.

The problems I face at work require engineering to solve. Unpredictability is a fact of life, but good engineering deals with that. The programmers that I work with apply lessons from materials and physics in complex algorithms to remove unpredictability from the most complex of tasks. When programmers do their job right they engineer solutions to complex problems that remove unpredictability. Calling them anything less than engineers would be insulting.

-Reader

:thumbsup:

 

[QueHuong]

12 pages...I read the first 2, so perhaps someone have already said what I'm going to.

I'm a biomedical engineer (should be more appropriately termed biomechanical engineer because our curriculum is mechanical with anatomy), and I dont' consider computer science an engineering discipline. First off, the curriculum is pretty different from a typical engineer's, usually less rigorous. Secondly, programming is using pure logic - almost like math, and math is a science, and so I consider computer science a science. Engineering, on the other hand, is the application of science. In addition, engineers seek to change a system. An engineering professor of mine says the biologist (the scientist) try to understand the system, but the biomedical engineer (the engineer, obviously) controls the system.

Computer science, with it being the application of logic, is clearly not an engineering field in this respect, but it does seek to control the system too, so at most, I'd consider a computer scientist a logician/scientist with engineering abilities. Computer science is a new field, and so it's difficult field to neatly categorize, but it's closest to what an engineer is, although not quite an engineering field.

I could have been an engineer if i wanted to, but i enjoy going out and having fun.]

alkesh, you sound like such a whining pansy. "I could have been that too, but I didn't want to. I could have done that, but I didn't feel like it. Waaaaaahhh." Jesus H. Christ. You sound like a damn little boy with too many excuses.

I just reread your whole original post, and it says you're a "social science" major. I missed that part before, but now that I've read it, I can almost definitely say you have no idea what engineering is like. Maybe, just maybe you could have made it as an engineer too, but that point is moot because you're clueless as to what engineering entails. Your highest math class is our high school prerequisite, and your major do not have any classes that is anything like an engineering class. I guess the biggest difference between your curriculum, and your roommate's is that his requires him to think, yours require you to memorize.

 

[Goosemaster]

I believe that to be human is to engineer, to use as much of one's faculties to make life better for oneself and everyone else.

As for the title of engineer, I am too busy doing EE problems to go into that.....

 

[saahmed]

computer programming is not considered an engineering discipline. And it really isn't.

 

[Phoenix86]

Originally posted by: saahmed
computer programming is not considered an engineering discipline. And it really isn't.

I'm in awe of your logic. Truely you have ended the thread right here.

 

[Radical Ans]

Computer Engineering != Computer Science

They are related, yes, but they are completely different beasts.

I graduated with a Computer Engineering degree and am currently working on control systems for underground coal mining machinery. I'll be the first to admit that our machines could run without all the computer controls, but because of these control systems our machines are able to be safer and more productive.

Doing this kind of embedded code work is completely different than say, writing an office application. You have to take into account what the mechanical guys designed while writing your code (i.e. gear ratios when determining how fast a traction drive should spin to get a desired speed). It's true that code is debugged and tested before it is released into the field but the same could be said for the mechanical parts on a machine. Everything is protoyped and tested extensively before it ever gets put into the field.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: Radical Ans
Computer Engineering != Computer Science

They are related, yes, but they are completely different beasts.

I graduated with a Computer Engineering degree and am currently working on control systems for underground coal mining machinery. I'll be the first to admit that our machines could run without all the computer controls, but because of these control systems our machines are able to be safer and more productive.

Doing this kind of embedded code work is completely different than say, writing an office application. You have to take into account what the mechanical guys designed while writing your code (i.e. gear ratios when determining how fast a traction drive should spin to get a desired speed). It's true that code is debugged and tested before it is released into the field but the same could be said for the mechanical parts on a machine. Everything is protoyped and tested extensively before it ever gets put into the field.

I agree partially. Computer engineering is not computer science. However producing any software product or design that helps people do work (or work more safely) involves making decisions on how to best implement various functionality and optimize code and that is an engineering process.

Computer science is supposed to be a science in that it is supposed to explore what we can do with computers on a theoretical level. Just like math is theoretical. I don't know what they actually teach comp science majors these days though.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: sxr7171

Originally posted by: Radical Ans
Computer Engineering != Computer Science

They are related, yes, but they are completely different beasts.

I graduated with a Computer Engineering degree and am currently working on control systems for underground coal mining machinery. I'll be the first to admit that our machines could run without all the computer controls, but because of these control systems our machines are able to be safer and more productive.

Doing this kind of embedded code work is completely different than say, writing an office application. You have to take into account what the mechanical guys designed while writing your code (i.e. gear ratios when determining how fast a traction drive should spin to get a desired speed). It's true that code is debugged and tested before it is released into the field but the same could be said for the mechanical parts on a machine. Everything is protoyped and tested extensively before it ever gets put into the field.

I agree partially. Computer engineering is not computer science. However producing any software product or design that helps people do work (or work more safely) involves making decisions on how to best implement various functionality and optimize code and that is an engineering process.

Computer science is supposed to be a science in that it is supposed to explore what we can do with computers on a theoretical level. Just like math is theoretical. I don't know what they actually teach comp science majors these days though.

Unfortunately what you dont realize... is that the difference between comp sci and comp eng at most universities is this...
Comp Sci has to take a foreign language to graduate.
Comp eng has to take additional credits of essays in mathematics.
niether of which differentiats you as an engineer or not.

 

[elmro]

As a developer, I don't really worry about it. I look at how much bigger my paycheck is than your average "engineer" and laugh all the way to the bank. They can have their title while I have all the goodies they work oh so hard to "engineer".