Don't you hate it when a mechanical engineer tells you that computer programming is NOT engineering?

[runzwithsizorz]

Thank goodness for computers, and cad software, without them the empire state building might never have been built.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: MasterAndCommander
It's not.

...has degrees in both Mech Engineering and Computer Sci

Depends on what you do for a career.

<= Writes software for real time embedded systems on nuclear submarines.

Trust me, it's engineering, but it matters what you do specifically.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Thank goodness for computers, and cad software, without them the empire state building might never have been built.

hahahaha. I think you're joking.

The empire state building was designed by the moment distribution method.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
You can't depend on the model all the time, a lot of it is experience and engineering judgement.

of course... just like software engineers can't depend on debugging tools all the time and have to rely on their experience and engineering judgment. if you really think about it at an abstract level, it's the same thing.

Originally posted by: Sukhoi
Computer science is not engineering. Engineering involves physical items. Computer code is not a physical item.

i don't want to get technical, but everything is physical, even our thoughts. but even beyond that... programming is fundamentally setting up the right sequences of bits on phsyical material. it's just that the physical aspect of it is abstracted away from our consciousness through intermediate tools, and the physical tools are really tiny.

 

[LostWanderer]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Does it matter whether or not programmers call themselves engineer or typist, or janitors call themselves sanitation engineer?

They are all human and are doing honest work and everyone should be treated with equal respect. It doesn?t mean that people with elitist titles such as king, emperor, shah, and president are better than the average people because they are not impervious to crimes, and there are great people that don?t hold any great title in this world that would sacrifice them selves to save others.

Agree they're doing an honest job and doing it well, but the title isn't at all elitist, it's a desciption. You wouldn't hire a gardner to roof your house, you hire a roofer. For engineering work you hire an "engineer" and for computer programming you hire a computer programmer. We're not saying there can't be computer engineers or that engineers are better than everyone else so they have a title, we're just saying that's what they do so call them that.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
You can't depend on the model all the time, a lot of it is experience and engineering judgement.

of course... just like software engineers can't depend on debugging tools all the time and have to rely on their experience and engineering judgment. if you really think about it at an abstract level, it's the same thing.

gotcha. again I apologize for making comments about something I don't know much about. What programmers do are amazing and the society benefits from it. it's something I'll never be able to do (hence I stayed away from comp sci).

 

[EmperorIQ]

Originally posted by: gopunk
http://www.answers.com/engineering

i think this sums it up

:thumbsup: And no where in that definition does it say that the product has to be tangible!

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: LostWanderer
Sorry to dissappoint you, but a computer programmer or even some would be computer "engineers" haven't earned the title. Not to knock the fields, they're difficult and demanding in their own right, and certainly equal in stature in my view, but the term engineer should be rightfully reserved.

When you take 5-6 years of multidisciplinary engineering courses, sit for an 8-hour comprehensive everything you ever saw internship test, work for the man for 4 years, sit for another 8-hour comprehensive everything you know test that has < 50% passing rate, pass all that and become licensed, live with the daily threat of lawsuits for anything you sign your name to, while commiting yourself to putting the public welfare and safety above your own personal gain, then you've earned the right to call yourself an engineer.

<-- Licensed and practicing civil engineer.

by that standard, ChemE's, BioE's and EE's wouldn't even be engineers

I can see ChemEs having a lot of liability issues as well. I don't really know what BioEs do and EEs... they're a different species.

Liabilities for an EE? - There are many. Design something that won't go up in flames for example. Design stuff that has to work for 30 years without failing. Too much to list on a forum.

ROFL, I did electrical engineering for civil projects. What a joke. That job was 10x easier than software.

Those liscenses are a PITA to get though.

Keep ranting though. When you drive your car to work tommroow, jsut reemmber all those computers under your hood come with software, and that remote that changes your TV and that thing you are typing on and your microwave. ya, it's a big list and how often does something fail due to software. OK, scratch Windows off the list .... but till 2000/XP there was a strong arguemnt that Windows was not an OS by the definition of an OS.

 

[JinLien]

Liability is determines at the court, because passing the blame it the way of operating in the modern world.

The BC provincial/Canada government board of engineers set up building codes for the province of BC that demand tighter insulation/seals (reduce heat lost of new structures). For about 20 years up to the late 90s all new construction has to follow this stringent code that cost the home owners of the province over a billion dollar in water/moisture damage due to this elitist group of unaccountable engineers.

 

[sdifox]

na, we are not engineers, we are better.

 

[EmperorIQ]

Originally posted by: sdifox
na, we are not engineers, we are better.

are we enginerds?

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

In regards to failures and testing. Software is tested and so are buildings.

Mathematical models are made to determine the safety ofa buildings design. Finite model analysis, etc. Working on subs, I get to see our mechanical engineer's toys. And man.. they are nice. Anyways, the designs are tested before any steel is even purchased.

Anyways ...
How is that different from software testing? We test software daily, but the code is only as good as the tests. If wiss miss one single test, our software can fail catastrophically. Good example? Windows? Anyways, I work on subs and we control external breeches via software. Guess what can happen if there is a catastrophic bug in our code?

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: her209
And then he turns around and continues to work on his CAD model. :roll:

You should turn around and tell him if he doesnt have a masters degree hes not really an engineer. You're technically not an engineer until you recieve your license from your state, which requires a masters degree and of course that evil engineering test..

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: her209
And then he turns around and continues to work on his CAD model. :roll:

You should turn around and tell him if he doesnt have a masters degree hes not really an engineer. You're technically not an engineer until you recieve your license from your state, which requires a masters degree and of course that evil engineering test..

Not all engineering licenses require a masters degree. I don't think a ME one does.

 

[JinLien]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: JinLien

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Computer science is not engineering in a traditional sense.

Stuff you do as a licensed professional engineer carry a lot of liability (human life, for instance). I don't see a programmer dude's failure will lead to fatalities.

Buggy software in an airplane/car/etc?

:thumbsup:

Guided missiles?

Again, you can test them in a controlled environment.

You can't do that with a building. You'll know whether an Engineer failed or not in a major event. Same goes for MEs, look at what happened to Challenger & Columbia.

Says the guy who apparantly isn't a software developer.

We've gone from "I don't see a programmer dude's failure will lead to fatalities" to "you can test them in a controlled environment." A "programmer dude's" mistakes CAN cause fatalities. You can't cover every real-world situation in testing. You think they didn't do extensive testing on the parts in the space shuttles?

My apologies, I don't know anything about software development.

I still believe that coding is something much more controllable than physical stuff.

Does it matter whether or not programmers call themselves engineer or typist, or janitors call themselves sanitation engineer?

They are all human and are doing honest work and everyone should be treated with equal respect. It doesn?t mean that people with elitist titles such as king, emperor, shah, and president are better than the average people because they are not impervious to crimes, and there are great people that don?t hold any great title in this world that would sacrifice them selves to save others.

I honestly don't really care for the title. I was trying to point out the stuff that traditional "engineers" do that software engineers don't do.

Why do you have your panty in a wad if the term doesn?t bother you?

 

[Dedpuhl]

I think the defining characteristic of being a "real" engineer is the ability to become a (licensed) Professional Engineer through the NCEES. Civil Engineers, to make the most of the degree, need a license in order to stamp/certify plans.

Software Programmers are very important due to our current dependence on computers and technology; however, I think they toss around the "engineer" title to make themselves feel more important. (you're an engineer? wow.....you're a programmer? that's nice).

Please don't take that the wrong way my programmer and CS buddies.


<--- Civil Engineer (in training). I take the PE exam in October.

 

[PHiuR]

i hate it when people think im a girl.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: beer

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: shortylickens
The software is a tool for him to do real engineering.
Engineers have many tools.
Micrometers for example.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if a "web developer" approached me and said I can make you a web page (using FrontPage/Dreamweaver/etc.) but couldn't write an functional HTML page by hand, I'd laugh in his face too.

wow, just, wow...

so an engineer is supposed to, uh, do what then? I mean, let's say a mechanical engineer is trying to make an engine. It's a common task. That engine requires a staff of two dozen once everything is said and done.

How would they do that without cad tools, again?

How did they do it before they had computers?

They had to hire a draftsman. Which is a seperate vocation from engineering.

 

[rsd]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Computer science is not engineering in a traditional sense.

Stuff you do as a licensed professional engineer carry a lot of liability (human life, for instance). I don't see a programmer dude's failure will lead to fatalities.

Tell that to my mom who is a software engineer that works on Radar software for the gov't :roll:

 

[AgentEL]

Originally posted by: rsd

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Computer science is not engineering in a traditional sense.

Stuff you do as a licensed professional engineer carry a lot of liability (human life, for instance). I don't see a programmer dude's failure will lead to fatalities.

Tell that to my mom who is a software engineer that works on Radar software for the gov't :roll:

equipment in hospitals use software as well

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: JinLien

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: shortylickens
The software is a tool for him to do real engineering.
Engineers have many tools.
Micrometers for example.

:thumbsup:I'm a "software engineer" but I don't consider myself an engineer by any means.

Title create elitism.

Hey dont knock it.
When I was chipping paint in the navy I called myself a "Deck Equipment Maintenance Technician and Shipboard Exterior Preservation Specialist". Its good for the ego and keeps you from killing the son of a bitch who just stole your needlegun.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: herm0016
im a mechanical engineer. . . dont hate me! wow. you guys are gettin real up tight about this. engineering is usually described as doing something physical. like finding a problem with a car and making a part to fix it. that is engineering in genral. anyone can "engineer". most computer and software engineering criculims that i have encounterd dont teach real engineering practices like statics and thermodynamics and meterial science, they teach you how to use a computer and how to build one. i belive that engineers need the background in the physical world that most computer degrees dont give you.

those are my thoughts. now you can rip them apart. . .

In other words, car mechanic == engineer!

 

[rsd]

By the way this thread is simply for you "true" engineer college tools to feel better about yourself while the comp sci kids are fvcking your girlfriends

 

[rsd]

Originally posted by: AgentEL

Originally posted by: rsd

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Computer science is not engineering in a traditional sense.

Stuff you do as a licensed professional engineer carry a lot of liability (human life, for instance). I don't see a programmer dude's failure will lead to fatalities.

Tell that to my mom who is a software engineer that works on Radar software for the gov't :roll:

equipment in hospitals use software as well

Besides that, I could easily argue the implementation, deployment, and use of many enterprise wide software systems can make or break a company (ERP, MRP, SCM, CRM, etc etc).

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Originally posted by: rsd
By the way this thread is simply for you "true" engineer college tools to feel better about yourself while the comp sci kids are fvcking your girlfriends

Comp sci students are far too busy telling anyone who will listen (and even those who won't) that FreeBSD is the best OS in the world because Linux has become far too mainstream and anyone that doesn't know how to write a 300 line script to perform some menial task is a complete tool.