Downsize tires for winter? Calculations?

[Eug]

Getting a RAV4 Hybrid soon with stock 235/55R18 wheels. Local shop suggested downsizing for the winter wheels both to cut through the snow and to save money. The cut through the snow part seems kinda bogus but the money saving part is significant.

However, the shop recommends 225/60R17. Tire rack recommends 225/65R17 and I note that a different trim level of the RAV4 Hybrid is actually 225/65R17 too.

I was considering going with 225/65R17, but it seems the X-Ice i3 I was considering getting doesn't exist in that size but does in the 225/60R17 size, which is presumably why the shop is recommending the latter. 1010tires.com says the 225/65R17 is +1.2% but the 225/60R17 is -1.9%. My understanding is both should be OK.

How about dropping down to 16" rims, or is that too much?

The other options are 225/70R16 (+0.8%) or 215/65R17 (-0.6%). The first doesn't exist but the 215/65R17 does, although it is slightly more expensive than 225/60R17 (-1.9%).

Would you just go with the 225/60R17? Or switch brands to 225/65R17? I note that the Blizzak WS80 come in that size for a decent price.

 

[someone16]

Depends if 16" can clear your brakes. The shop can test fit that for you. The sizes are all so close and within close enough range of the original size that it really shouldn't matter what you pick. I would say whatever cheapest size available would be fine.

 

[Eug]

Thx. Yes, 16" should work, according to some online sources.

However it turns out after searching that the 225/60R17 X-Ice i3 might be the easiest to source and install for a moderate price. The 225/65R17 Blizzak WS80 is available but in limited supply. Costco has them for cheaper than my local shop has the X-Ice but getting them installed at Costco can be a real pain since it's always so busy I'm told and they don't sell (m)any rims. Another local shop has the Blizzak WS80 albeit at a higher price and located further away.

Wow, spec-ing tires and sourcing them gets complicated fast.

I may just stick with that 225/60R17, just for the sake of convenience. Local shop at an acceptable price, and in stock.

Gonna get alloy rims. The price difference between 10-spoke alloy and ugly black steel rims is CAD$50 (~US$35) per rim, plus $40 (US$28) worth of nuts.

 

[Ferzerp]

Narrower tires are typically better on snow and ice, but apart from some potential edge cases with low profile tires, wheel diameter doesn't matter

 

[Eug]

Can any old alloy rim work for winter salt and snow? I'm thinking of some low priced allow rims simply because they don't look completely hideous.

Maybe something like:

Or

Although I'm thinking a coloured rim might be problematic after a few winters, with the colour wearing off in patches.

 

[996GT2]

Thx. Yes, 16" should work, according to some online sources.

However it turns out after searching that the 225/60R17 X-Ice i3 might be the easiest to source and install for a moderate price. The 225/65R17 Blizzak WS80 is available but in limited supply. Costco has them for cheaper than my local shop has the X-Ice but getting them installed at Costco can be a real pain since it's always so busy I'm told and they don't sell (m)any rims. Another local shop has the Blizzak WS80 albeit at a higher price and located further away.

Will Costco install tires which are not the OEM size? Last I checked they would not. You should check before you get rims which are different from stock.

 

[Eug]

Will Costco install tires which are not the OEM size? Last I checked they would not. You should check before you get rims which are different from stock.

Hmmm... Good point. No way I'm getting 18" winter rims. The tires at that size are more limited and noticeably more expensive.

Note though that while our RAV4 Hybrid Limited OEM size is 235/55R18, the RAV4 Hybrid XLE OEM size is 225/65R17. The two models of the car have the exact same dimensions, as well as the exact same engine and drivetrain. The main differences are the interior options, etc.

Still that just adds more to the hassle of dealing with Costco, so I will avoid them for this car's tires. I may use them in the future though, since my other car has 15" rims for both the summer and winter, and thus I use the exact same tire size for both.

 

[michal1980]

whats a tirerack package cost vs your local shop?

also look at the CONTINENTAL WINTERCONTACT SI. Early tirerack testing makes it sound like it performs like the WS80, but looks to be cheaper.

 

[rancherlee]

If you want Alloy wheels, find a stock set, those cheap aftermarket Alloys go to hell in a hurry. I got a set of "Sport" alloys from the Rack 3 years ago with General Arctics and they were corroded after the first winter, this year the mounting flange is even getting pitted. On a side note, if you need Snow tires more than Ice tires the General Arctics have been great for snow hole still being pretty good on Ice.

 

[Eug]

whats a tirerack package cost vs your local shop?

also look at the CONTINENTAL WINTERCONTACT SI. Early tirerack testing makes it sound like it performs like the WS80, but looks to be cheaper.

I'm in Canada so Tirerack doesn't work well for us. The shipping kills the deals.

If you want Alloy wheels, find a stock set, those cheap aftermarket Alloys go to hell in a hurry. I got a set of "Sport" alloys from the Rack 3 years ago with General Arctics and they were corroded after the first winter, this year the mounting flange is even getting pitted. On a side note, if you need Snow tires more than Ice tires the General Arctics have been great for snow hole still being pretty good on Ice.

Good to know, and that's what I was afraid of about the corrosion. I'll keep my options open.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Narrower tires are typically better on snow and ice, but apart from some potential edge cases with low profile tires, wheel diameter doesn't matter

In my opinion, it very much does matter. Winter tires are all about durability. My Impreza has far from low profile tires on its 17", but I moved to the base model's 15" steels for my winter tires for both costs and durability.

Because when you hit that hard block of ice in the road, or end up in a slide and hit that curb you didn't see, a tall 15" tire is going to do you a lot better an a thin 17" tire. In a season typified by often not being able to see what you're driving over, a little extra cushion for the pushin never hurt anyone

 

[Eug]

Hmmm... Interesting. I was told that in Canada, the RAV4 Hybrid does not come with TPMS. I checked the website, and it's not listed anywhere for the RAV4 (although it is for other cars like the Sienna).

I'll have to get confirmation of this, as this will make a big difference in the cost of the wheels.

Car has arrived from Japan BTW. Picking it up soon.

 

[Kelvrick]

Use this to get a general idea of how a different size will compare with your factory tires.
https://www.rimsntires.com/specspro.jsp

Factory for my outback is 225/55/17, I run 225/50/18 almost all year round and 215/60/17 during trips to the snow. The thinner tire will help to cut through snow because it is putting the car's weight in a smaller contact area. The higher sidewalls will help protect your wheels if/when you run into things.

I'd probably try to find some factory wheels that someone doesn't want anymore because they upgraded. Or maybe from a junkyard.

 

[Jumpem]

Just swap snow tires on and off of the OEM wheels. You don't need to incur the cost of a second set of wheels and TPMS sensors that way. It is also cheaper to have the tires mounted each time than to have the TPMS sensors reprogrammed each time.

 

[tracerbullet]

I'd think practically any car sold these days would have TPMS as standard. A coworker has a ~ 10 year old RAV and I know she has TPMS. No guarantees you do but I would expect so.

If you're planning to swap the wheels over yourself, I'd recommend a 2nd set including TPMS, it's what I do. I find it quicker to DIY than drive to the shop and wait, etc. not to mention I know I can inflate the tires to the correct PSI, torque the wheels properly, and anything else the yahoos at some shops I've been to seem to not comprehend.

Also, generally speaking, wider tires enhance lateral grip, narrower tires forward / braking grip (narrower tires don't have less tread contact on the ground they just spread it in a different direction, and that is the direction you tend to care more about during winter).

 

[NutBucket]

I get the narrower tire arguments but does 10mm either way really make any difference?

 

[RLGL]

I believe the engineers that designed the vehicle know more than the local shop that wants your MONEY $$$$

 

[OlyAR15]

TPMS was mandatory in the US after September 2007, but is not required in Canada. So it is quite possible that the Canadian RAV4 doesn't have TPMS. Best to check the owner's manual, as well as look for the TPMS light on the instrument panel.

 

[Yuriman]

It's a fact that narrower tires (all else being equal) will hydroplane at a higher speed, ditto with deep snow. I'd argue that, if you're not going to be taking corners at very high speeds, they're probably safer year-round. 10mm won't make a huge difference but I see basically no reason not to go with the narrower tires.

 

[NutBucket]

Wouldn't a wider tire be more likely to hydroplane?

 

[skyking]

That's what Yuri was saying in a different way
Narrower, higher profile will ride better, do better in all adverse conditions, if tread design is the same.
Wider, lower profile tires will exhibit better dry traction and cornering, if tread design is the same. They will also intercept more bumps along the way
Smaller rim size will be less expensive tires with very few exceptions.
Engineers are not involved in choosing the larger rims with lower profile tires, that is all about styling and marketing.
Don't fret about percentages of size, the car will not know or care about a few percent, so long as you keep same size front and rear for AWD and 4WD cars and trucks.
Go drive a speedometer check section or use your GPS or whatever to determine the speedometer difference.

 

[NutBucket]

Hey! As an engineer I've decided multiple times lower and wider are better

 

[skyking]

Looking over your thumb

 

[Eug]

I'm just keeping my options open because it's end of season and winter tire availability might be an issue.

P.S. I just got this quote from someone: "I can get you the four winter wheels for $XYZ but I can't tell you what tires yet." I was like WTF?!? and said no thanks, I'll go elsewhere. Worst salesman ever.

TPMS was mandatory in the US after September 2007, but is not required in Canada. So it is quite possible that the Canadian 2016 RAV4 doesn't have TPMS. Best to check the owner's manual, as well as look for the TPMS light on the instrument panel.

Yes, I asked this elsewhere and people have confirmed that the Canadian RAV4 doesn't have TPMS. Furthermore they say that several manufacturers have started removing this feature from several of their models of their cars in Canada. For example the Honda HR-V doesn't have it either.

 

[Brian Stirling]

For driving in snow you either want narrower tires or REALLY REALLY wide tires. But, since REALLY REALLY wide isn't practical, or even legal, narrower is the way to go.

OTH, unless you live in a particularly bad area the number of days in a year that justifies true winter tires is pretty small. I live in the Salt Lake City area and we get a lot of snow ... in the mountains, but down in the valley we maybe have four days in a year where snows would be much help.

And, even on those days when dedicated snow tires would be a help it's probably best for even those cars to limit driving. Most of the people we see against the K-rails in the snow are folks with 4WD/AWD and snows thinking they can't get stuck -- or crash.

I haven't bought or used dedicated snow tires in more than a decade.


Brian