Downsizing to a mini motherboard

[mckillerb]

Hi all,

I built my PC about 8 years ago and have freshened it up with new memory and software and few other bits and pieces ever since.

It is still in great condition, but i am considering downsizing to a mini motherboard etc.

This decision is purely on size as my PC i think now is a bit cumbersome for my needs and the space i have.

As it has been 8 years since i really have worked on my PC i feel very quite unconfident of working with hardware in this moment.

Would someone be able to tell me the pros and cons of downsizing to a mini motherboard. Do i sacrifice a lot of performance if i keep the same RAM and processor as i have now when downsizing? The pros are obvious, so i really want some info on the negatives.

Also, if i do downsize the motherboard, along with the case obviously, what other bits of hardware will have to be upgraded/ changed as well, and what can just be transfered from my old motherboard to the new?
eg. power unit, processor, RAM, CPUs, harddrives, graphics cards, PCI USB adaptors, PCI wireless internet card.

Unfortunately because i am currently working abroad, i cant list an exact spec of my hardware. I would appreciate some generalised information before we tackle the details and specifics of my setup.

Thanks in advance

 

[philipma1957]

Hi all,

I built my PC about 8 years ago and have freshened it up with new memory and software and few other bits and pieces ever since.

It is still in great condition, but i am considering downsizing to a mini motherboard etc.

This decision is purely on size as my PC i think now is a bit cumbersome for my needs and the space i have.

As it has been 8 years since i really have worked on my PC i feel very quite unconfident of working with hardware in this moment.

Would someone be able to tell me the pros and cons of downsizing to a mini motherboard. Do i sacrifice a lot of performance if i keep the same RAM and processor as i have now when downsizing? The pros are obvious, so i really want some info on the negatives.

Also, if i do downsize the motherboard, along with the case obviously, what other bits of hardware will have to be upgraded/ changed as well, and what can just be transfered from my old motherboard to the new?
eg. power unit, processor, RAM, CPUs, harddrives, graphics cards, PCI USB adaptors, PCI wireless internet card.

Unfortunately because i am currently working abroad, i cant list an exact spec of my hardware. I would appreciate some generalised information before we tackle the details and specifics of my setup.

Thanks in advance

Okay links in a minute


http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2268192&highlight=


3 builds with the same case. so if you want a mitx build can have tremendous performance.


As to what you can save from a 7,8 year old computer.

the psu ,some fans. maybe the video card. maybe a hard drive if it is sata and not ide. oh maybe a dvd player if it is sata not ide.

building an itx like mine you can cut corners.

a good itx case = 50
a mobo = 85
a cpu a g845 = 80
ram on sale = 60

 

[ShintaiDK]

You can get everything in a small MiniITX chassis. See my signature for my build as example.

I will build another MiniITX system with Haswell and use mSATA Crucial M500 SSD this time.

Unless you got something newer in the old PC than 7-8 years old. You should simply drop it and only buy new parts.

 

[Torn Mind]

So you built in 2005. Core 2 Duos were not around, Pentium 4s were still around, and AMD was riding high. Your RAM is probably DDR or DDR2, which is incompatible with DDR3. Your hard drive is probably an IDE drive and most motherboards no longer have an IDE connector.

PCI could still work, although some boards use third-party controllers or do not have PCI slots.

A graphics card from back then are probably useless and outclassed even by integrated graphics these days.

PSU-some boards need an 8-pin 12V connector and practically everything has a 24-pin main connector. You'll need to check that.


Performance is not dictated by the size of the board. The processor, RAM, GPU will work the same so long as they can be connected to the motherboard.

 

[mckillerb]

Thanks for the initial advice.

Are mini motherboards all a standard size or do they come in different dimensions? And are all mini-cases compatible with all mini motherboards or do i have be careful to match sure they fit?

Very happy to hear that performance is not sacrificed if the same hardware is swapped over. If have found most of the hardware i have upgraded through purchase history online. The original stuff i am not sure about until i return home. Can all of the listed gear be used with the mini mother board?:
Surely i have to sacrifice something?

Motherboard (2004):Gigabyte ?
Processor (2004):Intel ?
DVD (2004): ?
Graphics card: ?
Case (upgraded 2006): RaidMax Cobra Black High End Gaming Case with 450W PSU
PSU (upgraded 2010): Corsair VX Series 550W Active PFC PSU
OS (upgraded 2010): MicroSoft Windows 7 Home Premium – 64Bit, OEM
RAM (upgraded 2010): Kingston HyperX 4Gb (2x2Gb) DDR2 800MHz Dual Chan Kit
HD(upgraded 2010): 2TB Western Digital Caviar Green 64Mb SATA2 Hard Drive
HD (2nd) (2004): 250Gb Maxtor DiamondMax10 ATA133 16Mb Cache Hard Drive

 

[Rhezuss]

I'd still opt for a micro ATX instead of a ITX board for more versatility and "future proofing"

I recently biult a gaming PC for my bro using a Gigabyte GA-H77M-D3H which hane 4 ram slots, PCI-E 3.0 and many other features that will ensure a long lasting and efficient PC.

I would check for Gogabyte, ASRock and ASUS boards since they mostly offer the best quality and are packed with features.

Then grab some trusted RAM like G.Skill, Corsair or Kinston. 2x4gb of DDR3-1333 should do the trick and more.

For the CPU, if you have some slack on your budget a nice quad-core like the i5-3470 or even the i5-3570 if offered with some nice deals (K or non-K) would serve you well for many years. If you're more tight on budget a great i3 3225 (with HD 4000) is a great pick.

If you don't need a video card, the HD 4000 will get you enough juice to enjoy you everyday need. but if you need some gaming punch, a HD 7750/7770/7790 or GTX 650/650 Ti will gice you some punch in games with resolutions under 1080p.

You seem to have some nice hardware that you can keep like your PSU, HDD (the SATA one) and Case. Everything else "should be" upgraded to fit the new standards but should not cost you tremendous amount of pennies.

I'm a bit drunk since the MTL Canadiens won the game but I wanted to help you a bit and hope I did. Building a new PC is so much fun and shouldn't be messed with bad parts. All replies in your thread are great advice and you should consider them.

 

[Sleepingforest]

re mini motherboards all a standard size or do they come in different dimensions? And are all mini-cases compatible with all mini motherboards or do i have be careful to match sure they fit?

There are two "mini" sized boards: microATX and miniITX. MicroATX is at most 9.6" by 9.6" typically 80% the size of a full ATX board) and is abbreviated to mATX or sometimes µATX. MicroATX basically does everything full ATX does, except you can typically only do a single graphics card build (there's not much more room for a second card, and mATX cases have a standard of 5 expansion slots).

MiniITX is much smaller, at only 6.7" by 6.7" maximum (only about 40% of the size of a full ATX build!). They typically have a single PCIe slot and only 2 RAM slots, and so are much more limited in terms of expandability.

Pretty much all mATX cases support mATX and mITX. mITX cases only support mITX (as mITX is smaller).

You'll have to abandon most of your parts. Few modern motherboards (in fact, none on the newest chipsets) support DDR2 memory; the current standard is DDR3, which is NOT compatible. You can keep the case, but it defeats the point of getting a smaller motherboard.

You can keep the HDDs only if they're SATA drives, as new motherboards do not support the old standard, IDE (the same goes for your DVD drive). Even so, upgrading has benefits due to improvements in areal density of the platters and increased RPM. In particular, the WD Caviar Green is an NAS drive, and thus very slow but a little more power efficient, and your other hard drive is just plain old and slow (and probable to fail).

The only things you can keep are the OS and the PSU.

 

[lagokc]

The only things you can keep are the OS and the PSU.

...though at 8 years I probably wouldn't.

Did PSUs even have the 4-pin CPU connectors 8 years ago?

 

[Rezist]

Honestly scrap everything from your old build, and beyond that mITX vs mATX is basically how much video card do you want, also with some mITX cases you have to check compatability with PSU's, DVD drives etc. Note you can still get very powerful video cards into to some ITX cases it's just they will be the larger of the ITX cases.

 

[Torn Mind]

...though at 8 years I probably wouldn't.

Did PSUs even have the 4-pin CPU connectors 8 years ago?

Pentium 4s needed one, so yes.

 

[Zap]

Can all of the listed gear be used with the mini mother board?:
Surely i have to sacrifice something?

Motherboard (2004):Gigabyte ?
Processor (2004):Intel ?
DVD (2004): ?
Graphics card: ?
Case (upgraded 2006): RaidMax Cobra Black High End Gaming Case with 450W PSU
PSU (upgraded 2010): Corsair VX Series 550W Active PFC PSU
OS (upgraded 2010): MicroSoft Windows 7 Home Premium – 64Bit, OEM
RAM (upgraded 2010): Kingston HyperX 4Gb (2x2Gb) DDR2 800MHz Dual Chan Kit
HD(upgraded 2010): 2TB Western Digital Caviar Green 64Mb SATA2 Hard Drive
HD (2nd) (2004): 250Gb Maxtor DiamondMax10 ATA133 16Mb Cache Hard Drive

Let me get this straight. Nothing wrong with performance? Strictly for a smaller box?

Only potential keepers are Windows, the PSU (if you end up with a case that takes an ATX PSU) and the 2TB HDD. Nothing else will be kept if you go this route.

 

[mckillerb]

great info guys. the performance, i am more than happy with to be honest. I use the PC mainly for media. music and films etc. no games.

Its really just the size that i want to change.

What are my options for keeping my current motherboard and hardware, and just buying a smaller case?
Would this not make much difference?

 

[Zap]

There are smaller ATX cases, but IMO it wouldn't make enough of a difference to be worth the money and hassle.

What kind of budget do you have to work with? What are you looking for besides "physically smaller computer?" Do you care how much noise it makes other than "not noisy?"

Answers to those questions might help us point to more specific recommendations. Until then, assuming you have some budget to work with, here are some rather generic suggestions.

Mini ITX motherboard
DDR3 RAM
Choice of dual core CPU that fits motherboard
Small ITX case that fits at least one 3.5" HDD, plus a second 3.5" or 2.5" (Lian Li PC-Q07B, Cooler Master Elite 120)

 

[piasabird]

I used a 2500k in full ATX with an Antec 300 430 and used it just for the integrated video HD3000 for watching video on the internet. Didnt use a TV card. This is because the full size motherboard was cheaper then Mini-ITX and I got the case on sale as well. Only using one Hard Drive.

There are not that many cases built that I would call small that can handle 2 3.5 hard drives. Cooler Master Elite 120 is a cube type but it is still 15" long that has enough room for hard drives. Lian Li has a new case out like the Q27/Q28.

Lian Li Q27 & Q28
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Chassis-Lian-Li-Mini-ITX-Railing-Mount-Passive-Cooling,22128.html

Thermaltake SD01
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811133214

CM Elite 120
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119261

SilverStone Sugo Series SG05BB-LITE $39
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811163231
New - Sold out already at newegg.

Bit Fenix
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811345016

Antec ISK 300-150 -- No room for Hard Drive or large video card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129080

 

[piasabird]

I think Silverstone started selling a 450w SFX Power Supply with shorter cables. They might run a little louder than the standard size atx power supplies. They looked interesting enought to look at.

 

[mckillerb]

My budget was flexible to be honest, As i had hoped to only have to upgrade the motherboard (cerca £100) and case (<£100).
The news that the DDR2 will not be compatible and recommendations to upgrade other hardware is frustrating and moves the goalposts slightly.

Yes, noise is key for me and apart from size, my only other battle with my current system.
How does downsizing affect noise generally speaking?

 

[Insert_Nickname]

The news that the DDR2 will not be compatible and recommendations to upgrade other hardware is frustrating and moves the goalposts slightly.

I doubt you'll find an ITX board that supports DDR2. Maybe except older Atom boards, and stay away from those. That said, if you're happy with the performance form your 8 year old system, you could look at the various ITX boards with an integrated BGA CPU. Something like this, this or this plus a cheap 4GB DIMM should be plenty. It does not have to be that expensive.

My own mini-mediacenter is a Celeron G465, B75 mainboard and 4GB RAM. Its more then fast enough for basic use.

 

[blckgrffn]

Making it smaller makes it harder to make it silent, IMHO. As in you will be shopping for the right ($$$) fans and dealing with low profile (less effective) heat sinks.

You are going to compromise a lot to get it small and quiet if your budget is also toaster sized.

Mini-sized and quality both carry a premium.

 

[aaksheytalwar]

jst rebuild mini-itx

 

[saad_ahmed]

8 years and just mem and soft updates.... you must be using Pentium I 66MHz still

 

[ChippyUK]

My budget was flexible to be honest, As i had hoped to only have to upgrade the motherboard (cerca £100) and case (<£100).
The news that the DDR2 will not be compatible and recommendations to upgrade other hardware is frustrating and moves the goalposts slightly.

Yes, noise is key for me and apart from size, my only other battle with my current system.
How does downsizing affect noise generally speaking?

How about this? £230 after cashback (no OS though). If you want HDMI and HD video, just get a cheap £30 gfx card with it. I purchased the previous generation (cash back received promptly from HP) for a media center too.

http://www.ebuyer.com/430446-proliant-microserver-turion-2-2-2gb-250gb-nhpl-sata-lff-in-704941-421

Extra hardrives are so easy to install as they can just pop-in to the caddies. Dead silent too.

Just an option for you to consider.

 

[mckillerb]

Thanks again everyone who contributed and advised earlier. Now i am back in UK, i am thinking of picking this project up again.

In terms of budget, without going crazy and setting up an unlimited budget, i do tend to prefer to do things properly and pay a bit more for the better Ram, cpu or case etc etc.

Having read you replies and researched a bit more myself i have a much clearer idea of what i should and should do, and can and cant.

I have a couple more things to get straight in my head which would be great if someone could help me with:


1. Rhezuss mentioned a 'HD4000' in an early reply. What is this? Is it a built in graphics card into CPU or motherboard? If so, is it standard? and how does it compare to top PCI graphics cards for the purposes of watching 1080p movies.

2. Speaking of which, when i currently watch a 1080p movie, i get that annoying breakup of picture as well as pauses and stuttering pictures occasionally. What is this likely to be as a result of? CPU, Ram or graphics card?

3. Can anyone recommend some good mitx cases? I find the selection for mitx quite limited and very plain. i am looking for something 'high end' and sleek, that would look good next to my AV receiver and TV. i prefer the thin cases to the slightly cubed mitx cases. Also, are cases with remote controls and display screens just a gimmicks?

4. My current thinking will be to buy a 60gb SSD hardrive to run the operating system on as well as software, and then keep my 2TB HDD for data. Is that advisable? can you partition SSD in the same way you can HDD? presumably there are bays in all new cases now for SSD?

5. My current computer is using most of the expansion slots/ PCI express slots for various things. Wireless internet, TV card, extra USB ports and graphics cards. Where do they fit in when using a mitx case and motherboard?

6. FInally, what the general consensus about Windows 8? windows 7 i have almost no gripes about at all, however the media centre is a little bit limited for me. Is it better for windows 8?


thanks in advance.

 

[Charlie98]

1) It is.... integrated graphics, and it works very well for about 98% of what you would do. Even the lesser HD graphics were/are capable enough to drive 1080p playback... I have one in my HTPC.

2) Probably CPU and/or GPU, but it may be the overall system and not one component specifically.

3) There are 2 types mITX cases... the 'cube' type like you mentioned, or an HTPC case that is similar to the old horizontal desktop cases. If you plan to have it parked with other AV components, an HTPC case may be a good choice.

4) I would buy a minimum of a 120GB SSD, even for a limited application like yours. There are a number of reasons why, but with the cost of a 120GB SSD very often below $100, I don't see any reason to get a smaller one.

5) You will have to research mITX boards to accommodate what you want it to do. In the end, you may have to go to mATX to get enough PCIe slots.

6) I'm still running W7 on all my modern builds, it's proven and solid, but I will probably go to W8.1 or W9 next time. There were some complaints with the original W8 because of the user interface... some people like it, some don't, W8.1 was supposed to fix some of the more glaring faults. If I built a computer today... I would get W7.

 

[Essence_of_War]

1. Rhezuss mentioned a 'HD4000' in an early reply. What is this? Is it a built in graphics card into CPU or motherboard? If so, is it standard? and how does it compare to top PCI graphics cards for the purposes of watching 1080p movies.

Adding onto what Charlie98 said, specifically, it's integrated onto Intel's CPU die. HD 4000 is the standard integrated graphics on all of Intel's Ivy Bridge chips (i3,i5,i7 and Pentium, I believe). They are fine for movie playback, but if you're a real movie-buff or stickler for 23.976 FPS, you should know that they cannot do that frame rate precisely and will play at 24 FPS with occasional dropped frames. You may or may not notice the difference. The most modern intel desktop chips, Haswell, use HD4600 which resolves this 23.976 FPS issue.

4. My current thinking will be to buy a 60gb SSD hardrive to run the operating system on as well as software, and then keep my 2TB HDD for data. Is that advisable? can you partition SSD in the same way you can HDD? presumably there are bays in all new cases now for SSD?

I whole-heartedly concur with Charlie98. SSDs really like to be at least 25% empty, so it's very useful to give them some extra breathing room, and the fractional savings on 60 vs. 120 GB really is pretty small, especially when you weight it against the value of breathing room. SSDs can be partitioned, like HDDs, and to the OS/user it appears to work exactly the same. Behind the scenes things are a little more complex since the SSD controller chooses which particular cells to write data to, and also moves data around to wear-level the NAND cells. Many cases now have 2.5'' bays (the standard SSD size) and some motherboards even have msata/m.2 slots for even more compact SSDs.

I use an SSD for OS/programs and an HDD for data/games. It works really well. It's a very common set-up, and painless TO set-up.

5. My current computer is using most of the expansion slots/ PCI express slots for various things. Wireless internet, TV card, extra USB ports and graphics cards. Where do they fit in when using a mitx case and motherboard?

mITX is VERY compact. You will probably have one full size PCI slot that you can use for a graphics card, and you may have 1-2 mini PCIe slots that are typically used for wifi cards/ tv tuners.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Adding onto what Charlie98 said, specifically, it's integrated onto Intel's CPU die. HD 4000 is the standard integrated graphics on all of Intel's Ivy Bridge chips (i3,i5,i7 and Pentium, I believe). They are fine for movie playback, but if you're a real movie-buff or stickler for 23.976 FPS, you should know that they cannot do that frame rate precisely and will play at 24 FPS with occasional dropped frames. You may or may not notice the difference. The most modern intel desktop chips, Haswell, use HD4600 which resolves this 23.976 FPS issue.

Elaborating a bit on that, the HD4000 is NOT standard on desktop CPUs unfortunately. That dubious honour belongs to the HD2500 (Celeron/Pentiums use a feature cut-down version of the HD2500 with a "HD Graphics" moniker). That being said, for regular usage/non-gaming the HD2500 is just fine. It can do everything the HD4000 can, except gaming, which is borderline on the HD4000 anyway.

Haswell does indeed fix the 23.976 issue, and it also applies for the Celeron/Pentium HD Graphics.