Dragon Age 3: Inquisition announced

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Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
Meh, I completely believe Bioware would have gone in the same direction if they got picked up by EA or not. It's just the way the entire industry headed.

DA started as a strategic, story driven RPG franchise. DA2 took it the complete opposite direction, and I don't believe for a moment that it was Bioware's decision to do that. EA wanted it casualized and more friendly to console players.

There was a marked decline in the quality of Bioware's games when EA took over.

I did figure that EA would destroy them eventually, but I honestly didn't expect it to be over the course of a single development cycle.


Still have CDProjeck Red though. And Obsidian and InXile through Kickstarter.
 
Aug 11, 2008
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Meh, I completely believe Bioware would have gone in the same direction if they got picked up by EA or not. It's just the way the entire industry headed.

Not to mention that no one forced Bioware to sell out to EA. I blame Bioware as much or more than EA.
 

motsm

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2010
1,822
2
76
DA started as a strategic, story driven RPG franchise. DA2 took it the complete opposite direction, and I don't believe for a moment that it was Bioware's decision to do that. EA wanted it casualized and more friendly to console players.
Their games have been steadily getting more casual since they finished the Baldur's Gate series. Dragon Age was the one release since that went the other direction, which is the only reason Dragon Age II looks so out of place. If they kept on the same road instead of veering off for Dragon Age, everything fits right in line, IMO.

Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age II.

I don't deny that EA may have some influence, but I don't think it's as much as people think.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
Their games have been steadily getting more casual since they finished the Baldur's Gate series. Dragon Age was the one release since that went the other direction, which is the only reason Dragon Age II looks so out of place. If they kept on the same road instead of veering off for Dragon Age, everything fits right in line, IMO.

Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age II.

I don't deny that EA may have some influence, but I don't think it's as much as people think.

Neverwinter Nights was a completely different type of game, and it ended up being one of the best RPGs of all time. Originally it wasn't even going to have a campaign shipped with it, but eventually they basically threw one together just to act as a guide for what the toolset could do. Anyone judging the game based on its pre-made campaign is blind to what the game really is about.

Jade Empire was an Xbox game that eventually got ported to PC.

I thought KOTOR was a good game...

Dragon Age was announced waaay early in its development as an assurance from Bioware that they hadn't forgot their traditional RPG loving crowd. I still remember those first screenshots. Thankfully EA bought them too late in the development process to change the game. The difference between DAO and DA2 is the difference between old Bioware and post EA Bioware.

Thanks to Kickstarter we can still get the types of games we want without having big publishers screw it all up.
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
44
91
Damn, I had high hopes for DA3 but the previews sure don't look good. It is such a shame, DA:O is so good. Think what could have been done if they had stayed on the same path, just improving a working formula. I am actually playing through DA:O again right now thanks to this thread, and the game hasn't lost much, if anything.

I hope some of the Kickstarter games actually pan out to be good, but it is going to take quite an effort to top DA:O.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
Damn, I had high hopes for DA3 but the previews sure don't look good. It is such a shame, DA:O is so good. Think what could have been done if they had stayed on the same path, just improving a working formula. I am actually playing through DA:O again right now thanks to this thread, and the game hasn't lost much, if anything.

I hope some of the Kickstarter games actually pan out to be good, but it is going to take quite an effort to top DA:O.

I'm also replaying DA:O. A great game no doubt, but I have high hopes that Project Eternity will best it.
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
44
91
I'm also replaying DA:O. A great game no doubt, but I have high hopes that Project Eternity will best it.

I'll have to keep an eye on that one. I have to admit however that part of what I like about DA:O is the graphics and moveable camera. It looks like Project Eternity is more of a throwback to the old Infinity Engine games with a fixed isometric view.
 

motsm

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2010
1,822
2
76
Neverwinter Nights was a completely different type of game, and it ended up being one of the best RPGs of all time. Originally it wasn't even going to have a campaign shipped with it, but eventually they basically threw one together just to act as a guide for what the toolset could do. Anyone judging the game based on its pre-made campaign is blind to what the game really is about.

Jade Empire was an Xbox game that eventually got ported to PC.

I thought KOTOR was a good game...
I own all of those games, I don't think they are bad. I just can't ignore that Bioware has been slowly heading in a very DAII direction for many years. We likely differ our opinions there, but no worries.
 

cbrunny

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2007
6,791
406
126
After watching that video, I have utmost confidence this will be a lousy PC game... hopefully they create a separate gameplay experience for PC gamers - even just changing the UI would do wonders, as in DAO.
 

Red Hawk

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2011
3,266
169
106
DA started as a strategic, story driven RPG franchise. DA2 took it the complete opposite direction, and I don't believe for a moment that it was Bioware's decision to do that. EA wanted it casualized and more friendly to console players.

I'd say Dragon Age II is just as story driven as Dragon Age Origins, regardless if you actually like that story or not. As for strategic, things definitely took a shift to be faster paced in DAII, though I wouldn't call the changes to the mechanics as drastic as the jump from ME1 to ME2. Console players were probably more catered to this time around, but can you really blame them? It would be foolish to release a game for the consoles without actually putting a good effort into addressing what console players want.

I think it's snobbish of PC gamers to criticize a game just for taking console players into account. As long as the PC version of games has a good control scheme (which DAII does, retaining much of DAO's controls), and takes advantage of the power of a good gaming PC through higher detail textures and effects (which DAII does), I'm satisfied. If a game is somehow less "strategic", that's something I would criticize both the PC version and the console versions for.

With that said, I don't think being more "casualized" is something that can be pinned on DAII. At most you could say removing the customization of party member armor is, though that may be more of an artistic choice similar to why it happened with ME2. With ME2 the designers were going for an "iconic look" to the characters, and the same approach may have been adopted by the DAII team.

There was a marked decline in the quality of Bioware's games when EA took over.

I did figure that EA would destroy them eventually, but I honestly didn't expect it to be over the course of a single development cycle.

Was there, really? Much of DAO's development happened while EA was in control. If they wanted changes, don't you think they would have had DAO overhauled to begin with? ME2 I felt was a fantastic game, and ME3 -- ending aside -- was also fantastic. The problems with the ending are the sort of thing that I wouldn't blame EA for either. If anything, the ending had the problem of trying to be too "artsy". Is that really something the corporate side of EA would have pushed for?

The one thing I can see EA as responsible for is the focus on day-one DLC. With ME2 and DAO it was fairly ok, because as long as you bought a copy of the game new you could get the day-one DLC for free. With DAII and ME3 they got too greedy, though, only giving you the day one DLC if you paid extra for the collectors' editions or paid separately. That is one practice I hate and I want to see die.

Not to mention that no one forced Bioware to sell out to EA. I blame Bioware as much or more than EA.

Actually BioWare was owned by a group called Elevation Partners beforehand, IIRC. So the purchase of BioWare may not have been under Greg and Ray's (the BioWare cofounders) control
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
Was there, really? Much of DAO's development happened while EA was in control.

DA was announced in 2004, and EA took over in 2007 with the game coming out in 2009. I definitely think EA had some influence over the game, but I feel it was too far along for them to change it much if any. DA2 was a full EA owned production though, and it clearly shows.

I know you liked DA2, but I thought it was easily one of the worst games of all time because of what it should and could have been. The story was anything but compelling. The environments were recycled so much I almost thought it was an intentional joke of some kind. The game play was anything but tactical, enemies spawning out of the sky and ground? That was more of a joke than the recycled environments! I don't know of any old school RPG gamers that liked DA2, it was an abomination of epic proportions.
 

PrincessFrosty

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2008
2,300
68
91
www.frostyhacks.blogspot.com
I know you liked DA2, but I thought it was easily one of the worst games of all time because of what it should and could have been. The story was anything but compelling. The environments were recycled so much I almost thought it was an intentional joke of some kind. The game play was anything but tactical, enemies spawning out of the sky and ground? That was more of a joke than the recycled environments! I don't know of any old school RPG gamers that liked DA2, it was an abomination of epic proportions.

This.

Not only is all of that true, but they also dumbed down the game, removed a lot of the armour management, the spell tree became completely ridiculous compared to DAO, in fact the whole skill/spell tree system was just awful, it looked like something out of a toddlers "my first rpg" game, with really basic shapes and colours to represent the tree's, it looked like it was designed for 12 year olds, a serious step down from the original.

Most of the people that loved DAO were the hardcore RPG fans from back in the days of Baldurs Gate, and Never Winter Nights, and DAO paid homage to those games fairly admirably. DA2 shit all over that, it was really quite disgusting what EA did to it.
 

Red Hawk

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2011
3,266
169
106
DA was announced in 2004, and EA took over in 2007 with the game coming out in 2009. I definitely think EA had some influence over the game, but I feel it was too far along for them to change it much if any. DA2 was a full EA owned production though, and it clearly shows.

I know you liked DA2, but I thought it was easily one of the worst games of all time because of what it should and could have been. The story was anything but compelling. The environments were recycled so much I almost thought it was an intentional joke of some kind. The game play was anything but tactical, enemies spawning out of the sky and ground? That was more of a joke than the recycled environments! I don't know of any old school RPG gamers that liked DA2, it was an abomination of epic proportions.

Does that really make it one of the worst games? Worse than something like, say, Mindjack? Worse than Kinect and Wii shovelware? Worse than movie-licensed games sold for a quick buck? To put it another way, would you rather play those games rather than DAII? Sure, DAII can be seen as plenty disappointing, but disappointing is not the same thing as simply being awful.

I get a lot of the criticisms of DAII. Recycled environments, definitely. The first Mass Effect got a bunch of criticism for reusing environments as well, so I would have figured that the DAII devs should have known they would be criticized for it. They probably had to cut corners on that in order to rush the game out. Running through DAO again, it's noticeable that they did recycle environments for some things, but it either was not too conspicuous or it made sense in the story. The random encounters on the road reused a few maps, but they were not too essential to the story. You revisited areas that you may have seen before in origin stories, but it was after being away for a while so it felt natural and not because they were being cheap. Whereas in DAII there was a specific set of maps that they noticeably reused over...and over...and over...almost worse than ME1, really, because these recycled environments came up in plot or main character related quests. A return to the approach in DAO would be very welcome.

Enemies essentially respawning in the middle of a fight was also annoying. I do think that the game retained a level of tactics, because I still felt I had to prioritize taking out mages or elite enemies, or at different times taking out the mooks so they wouldn't chip away at me while I deal with the elites. The harder fights still required strategizing, managing what my party members were using mana/stamina on, when and who to use health poultices, etc. But yeah, no respawning enemies in Inquisition please, BioWare.

The story, I thought, was pretty good; the Qunari arc was probably the best, and the mages vs templars was good though a little too heavyhanded at times and sort of crumbled by the end. I've heard it said that it was bad for DAII to have everything centered around one city rather than moving around a whole country; I disagree. DAO's story was good, but it was, at its core, a generic story of questing around to find the plot Macguffins (support from allies) in order to stop the evil invasion of orc expies. Well written and executed, but still generic at its core. With DAII they tried to do something different, and I think they did it rather well, and could have done even better if they hadn't so obviously rushed the game.

I'm not sure if I can call myself an "old school RPG gamer". The first real RPG I played, not counting Zelda games, was Knights of the Old Republic (PC version). I loved it, and I would later play the Mass Effect games and Dragon Age Origins and loved them as well. I've heard it said that fans of DAO tend to hate DAII while people who like DAII dislike DAO; I disagree because I myself enjoy both. DAO is clearly the superior game, though, and I hope Dragon Age Inquisition is a great improvement over DAII.
 

ArenCordial

Senior member
Sep 18, 2012
214
15
81
My concern with DAIII is really the change in combat from the strategic, ability, based party command style gameplay to effectively twitch based combat.

DAII started a movement towards that but really it was built around that same as BG2, NWN, and DAO. Sure the animations were way over the top, the blood explosions were cringe-worthy, and the cross class combo system left a ton to be desired. But it really wasn't twitch (as least on the PC side).

If BioWare wants to make a twitchy combat game go for it, but quiet frankly it should have been left to another franchise not one that's gameplay style was already well established.

And especially don't give examples like Eternity, X-Com EU, and Wasteland 2 of games that inspire this type of gameplay then show something that looks like it could be Kingdoms of Amalur 2. Just another example of them saying one thing and doing another. Its pathetic really if that what it turns out to be.
 
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Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
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Does that really make it one of the worst games? Worse than something like, say, Mindjack? Worse than Kinect and Wii shovelware? Worse than movie-licensed games sold for a quick buck? To put it another way, would you rather play those games rather than DAII? Sure, DAII can be seen as plenty disappointing, but disappointing is not the same thing as simply being awful.

Yes, because of what DA2 could and should have been. It was expected to be a great game like the first one. Those quick buck movie games or Wii crap or other unheard of games have zero expectations, so when they suck it's not surprising at all.

The thing about DA2's reused environments is that it wasn't just the map, it was the minimap too! You'd see a clearly drawn passage on your mini-map, and think "This layout is exactly like the last mission..." but then some rocks are blocking the door you went into last time and instead another path is available... but the minimap still shows the previous paths! That was one of the laziest dev jobs I had ever seen.
 
Aug 11, 2008
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No. You can't. lol

I dont consider myself an old school RPG gamer then, I guess, because KOTOR was one of my favorite games ever. I later played NWN 1 and 2 and thought they were very good as well.

I have been trying to play Baldur's gate, but am having a hard time getting into it TBH, mainly because the graphics make it very difficult to even see what is going on, and I cant seem to get it to work well on my dual monitor set-up, either in windowed or full screen mode.
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
44
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I dont consider myself an old school RPG gamer then, I guess, because KOTOR was one of my favorite games ever. I later played NWN 1 and 2 and thought they were very good as well.

I have been trying to play Baldur's gate, but am having a hard time getting into it TBH, mainly because the graphics make it very difficult to even see what is going on, and I cant seem to get it to work well on my dual monitor set-up, either in windowed or full screen mode.

Don't worry about it. I do consider myself an old school RPG gamer, having started with Ultima 3 on my Atari 800, and even with probably a dozen starts over the years I still have not completed Baldur's Gate. The last time I tried playing it I realized I would rather be playing DA:O or some other more modern RPG.

This thread has me wanting to try DA2 now just to see what all the fuss is about. I was sort of burned out on RPGs when it was released so I never got around to buying it. Once I get through this latest run on Origins I might give it a shot.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
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I don't think more action or a faster pace is a bad thing necessarily. DA2 was an improvement in some ways from DAO imo, with abilities which made the clearing of 'trash' enemies less time consuming and annoying and abilities that 'shortened' the battlefield so doing the 'in combat slow walk' across the map was less tiresome. I think it addressed some of the more irritating things about DAO combat at least.

I think some people mistake "slow paced" with "strategic" when it comes to DAO. It played like single player WoW to me; I mean you CC the stuff you can't get to right away, kill the squishy enemies first, kill the tanky enemies second, kill the CCed stuff third. I enjoyed it all the same, but I never found "pull stupid AI around corners" or "focus fire" or "healer first" to be all that... strategic.
 

Red Hawk

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2011
3,266
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Yes, because of what DA2 could and should have been. It was expected to be a great game like the first one. Those quick buck movie games or Wii crap or other unheard of games have zero expectations, so when they suck it's not surprising at all.

Does that really make it so you would rather play Mindjack? Would you rather play Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing? Like I said, being disappointing is not the same thing as being outright bad.

I dont consider myself an old school RPG gamer then, I guess, because KOTOR was one of my favorite games ever. I later played NWN 1 and 2 and thought they were very good as well.

I have been trying to play Baldur's gate, but am having a hard time getting into it TBH, mainly because the graphics make it very difficult to even see what is going on, and I cant seem to get it to work well on my dual monitor set-up, either in windowed or full screen mode.

I've tried getting into Baldur's Gate myself since I've heard how great it is, but I've run into the same problem myself. I just can't connect to the characters and the story as well without seeing their expressions and the cinematic view of what's going on, and the learning curve on the gameplay is steep even though I have experience with games like DAO and KotOR. I find myself just wanting to go back to those games whenever I try Baldur's Gate. Never tried the Neverwinter games.

This thread has me wanting to try DA2 now just to see what all the fuss is about. I was sort of burned out on RPGs when it was released so I never got around to buying it. Once I get through this latest run on Origins I might give it a shot.

I would recommend picking it up on sale somewhere (it's not on Steam anymore, unfortunately). I actually wouldn't recommend it for full price (indeed, I myself waited to pick it up until I could find it on sale for $30 or so), but it's probably going for $20 by this point, and that's a fair price.
 

Red Hawk

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2011
3,266
169
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Why do you keep bringing up some game I've never heard of? DA2 was both disappointing and outright bad. I would rather not play anything than play DA2.

Because "worst games of all time" does not include only the games you've bothered to play.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
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Because "worst games of all time" does not include only the games you've bothered to play.

What's worse, a bad game no one has heard of or will play, or a highly anticipated (bad) sequel to one of if not the best modern RPGs? The higher expectations and previous bar set by the DA:O make DA2 the worst IMHO.
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
44
91
It is interesting that DA2 has a MetaCritic score of 82%, yet I have not heard great things about it. DA:O has a score of 91% by comparison so it would seem from a quick glance that they were both on a similar level as far as the critics are concerned. Certainly DA:O was rated higher, but it isn't like DA2 was down at 50%.
 

Red Hawk

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2011
3,266
169
106
What's worse, a bad game no one has heard of or will play, or a highly anticipated (bad) sequel to one of if not the best modern RPGs? The higher expectations and previous bar set by the DA:O make DA2 the worst IMHO.

Expectations or how many people will end up playing it have nothing to do with the intrinisic quality of a game. Mindjack was released for the full $60 on PS3 and 360, meaning that Square Enix went through the publishing and licensing process actually expecting to get some sales with that crap. For that $60 you got something much, much worse than Dragon Age 2, period. And there are a lot of games like that, even ones which are more disappointing. Sonic Free Riders. Vampire Rain. Aliens: Colonial Marines. Etc.
 
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