DrCool's System Builders Guide - NOV 04

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Tostada
Interesting. I've seen people report before that you can still tell it to run dual-channel with 3 sticks, but I haven't seen any real testing about it.

I know dual-channel really doesn't help performance significantly, but some people report problems trying to use the integrated video if they're not running dual-channel. Along those lines I'd be interested in seeing if running dual-channel with 3 sticks is as safe as 2 sticks if you're using the IGP. I haven't ever used an NF2 IGP board in single-channel with the IGP and noticed any problems, but I've always run dual-channel just to be sure.

I'm not suggesting that the BIOS may be lying about running dual-channel with 3 sticks, but I would be hesitant to tell somebody it's a good idea when I really don't have any personal experience with upgrading an IGP board to some weird configuration like 256MB + 256MB + 512MB. The concept of dual-channel with non-paired memory really doesn't make sense. Since it allows this, perhaps it's actually running two banks dual-channel and then the 3rd bank is single-channel. As long as the IGP isn't using shared memory from the 3rd bank, there shouldn't be any of the issues people report with single-channel IGP.

Anyway, good news for Devcon. Thanks for the heads-up.

No problemo Now Here's the deal, the 2 slots together are one 64bit channel and the 3rd slot by itself is the 2nd 64bit channel. Hence why with 2 slots 1 has to be in the 3rd seperate one for DC. So anytime that 3rd slot is filled, be it with 2 or 3 sticks, the 2nd 64bit channel is in use. Now wether the ram all plays nice together is another story I've had no problem but I played with 3 matching 512mb sticks of Samsung TCC4 3200DDR. As stated though, other members here confirm different sized sticks in different configs didn't effect things much. DC is only good for 5% tops in most stuff as you doubtless know but if looking to run say 2x256 and add a 512 stick for a gb of ram then DC is just a bonus if the ram all works properly together. Tweaking vDIMM and timings should correct small compatibility issues but obviously some people just have no luck with nF2 and DC even with ram sold in pairs at a premium specifically for DC use.

here is another sources take on 512MB vs 1GB in GAMING:
http://www.gruntville.com/revi...alent_pc3500/page3.php (READ the part in BOLD WHITE

Where did he test gaming? I see some useless synthetic "Mock" scores Now go try playing FarCry or a new MMPORPG, or heck, even BF1942 and watch your ram usage and see if it don't eat your whole 512 for breakfast and ask for more

 

[DrCool]

wow, some of the responses I just read are down right, laughable.

posting your physical characteristics, is just childish.

Where did I make a physical threat? I said if we'd ever had meet in person, there would be no debate, as my knowledge of Computers can easliy be verified and proven, and blow any of your ignorant statements to pieces.

again.. you guys can SAY anything you want.. it doesn't make the statements accurate.

One of the reasons science exsists is to test theories, against FACT (proven via numerous tests), from reputable sources.

I've posted 2 reviews that back up my statements, none of you have provided ANY.

 

[Tostada]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
No problemo Now Here's the deal, the 2 slots together are one 64bit channel and the 3rd slot by itself is the 2nd 64bit channel. Hence why with 2 slots 1 has to be in the 3rd seperate one for DC. So anytime that 3rd slot is filled, be it with 2 or 3 sticks, the 2nd 64bit channel is in use.

That's understandable, but my point is that if you don't have the same total memory in each channel, it shouldn't be able to work in DC, at least once you get past a certain point.

For example:

Slot1 (channel 1): 256MB
Slot2 (channel 1): empty
Slot3 (channel 2): 256MB

Total memory in channel 1 = 256MB
Total memory in channel 2 = 256MB

Total memory = 512MB

That makes sense. Slot 1/3 can be accessed in parallel, giving you 128-bit bandwidth across the board. But then say you just drop another 512MB in there without rearranging anything:

Slot1 (channel 1): 256MB
Slot2 (channel 1): 512MB
Slot3 (channel 2): 256MB

Total memory in channel 1 = 768MB
Total memory in channel 2 = 256MB

Total memory = 1024MB

Being able to run that way in DC doesn't make sense. If it works at all, I would think that only the first 512MB would actually operate with 128-bit bandwidth. When accessing memory beyond 512MB, it's all coming out of the 1st channel because the 2nd channel has no corresponding address. It would be very interesting to see if performance for this arrangement does actually fall somewhere between 1024MB single-channel and a matched 1024MB dual-channel configuration. I would think that performance would increase if you rearranged the sticks so that there was 512MB in each channel.

Or perhaps it has some very clever way of working this out which I don't understand at all...

 

[erikistired]

your links don't have anything to do with your statements, quit trolling and misleading people or people are going to assume that's all you're here to do.

 

[PumpActionWalrus]

I have 800 in a system that will outperform your 1200 dollar systems, thats with good parts too

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: PumpActionWalrus
I have 800 in a system that will outperform your 1200 dollar systems, thats with good parts too

read my sig for his response to all claims that your system will outrun his!

haha, he's PM'ng me again. arrrrrr.

 

[Dug]

I've posted 2 reviews that back up my statements, none of you have provided ANY.

Ummm.. no you haven't.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

again.. you guys can SAY anything you want.. it doesn't make the statements accurate.

What people are telling you is common knowledge on these boards. That's what makes your statements so laughable.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Tostada, you are partially correct, the AT article that previewed nF2 back in '02 explains it

The DualDDR setup works identically to TwinBank on the original nForce chipset; with only one DIMM installed, the chipset turns off one of the two 64-bit memory controllers. With a second or third installed, the nForce2 IGP/SPP will enable both memory controllers; and just like the original nForce, you will be able to install DIMMs of different sizes.

If you install two DIMMs, a 128MB and 256MB module then only the first 256MB (smallest memory module size X number of memory modules installed) of memory will be accessible using both 64-bit memory controllers; any memory accessed above 256MB will only be accessed using a single 64-bit channel. The chipset supports up to 3GB of memory and can support 1GB DIMMs in each of its three sockets although stability will be up to the motherboard manufacturers to ensure.

So what happens is when it needs more than the 256x3 it'll address the remaining 256mb of ram left in your example as single channel. The real world impact is negigible though, which is right in-line with the small performance increase of nF2 DC in most usage anyways. So 3 sticks can run dual channel, but to ensure DC is in effect 100% of the time you would want all same sized sticks as you thought. This would obviously be especially important if the user works with a app that is very bandwidth hungry.

 

[DrCool]

DAPUNISHER

This illustrates a good point, when dealing with technology.. on paper and in theory don't always reflect re-world or synthenic performance.

Seems to be the exact reason, both INTEL and AMD have done away with GHz competition and instead use unique model ratings that are supposed to represent the processors 'overall performance' instead of Hz rating alone.

 

[Boonesmi]

but the problem with your guides is that they are both a poor choice for real world performance, and also a poor choice for synthetic performance

i shouldnt use the word "poor"... the words "fair" or "so-so" would probably be more apporpriate, but since this is an enthusiast forum you will get smacked down when making such suggestions


by the way if your suggestions are so good, why are not people jumping in this thread and defending you? errr nevermind i know the answer, lol, its cause everyone on here is "ignorant"

 

[dc5]

lock this thread. your guide already has been voted by many users to be not the best one. furthurmore, we already have a great guide and do not need another one, thanks.

 

[Glavinsolo]

2nd

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: dc5
lock this thread. your guide already has been voted by many users to be not the best one. furthurmore, we already have a great guide and do not need another one, thanks.

3rd'd?

 

[DGath]

Here's my problem with DrCool. He just set up DrCool.US probably a week ago, spent the first few days trying to get the forum set up and now wants to get people to go to go there so he can try to be the next Anandtech. In his mind this is probably plausible. He boasts on and on about having "10 years of experience," but in this forum, that is probably the bottom 20%.

My opinion of him isn't just from this thread, but check out this one where once again... the posters overwhlemingly discredits his opinions. In defense of a claim that he didn't know what a workstation is, he said he knew exactly what it was by breaking down the word, simply as a "station" where you do "work," and nothing more. No superior processor, no superior graphics, just a computer that allows you to use Word basically. Just take a look at that thread and read through his comments about how crappy Dell's are. We all know that they can sometimes not make the best computers in the world, but this isn't fair...

Originally posted by: DrCool
what you'll get with Dell, HP+Compaq, and Gateway:
1) shi*Ty components, that will start to fail within 12 months or sooner
2) support from monkeys, who don't EVEN SPEAK ENGLISH!!
3) big o'le 1 year warranty (worthless!) as you have to go through the manufacturer to utilize it (refer back to the MONKEYS!)

Nick also completely discredited him in that thread, and I think I would tend to believe Nick over DrCool. I'd be willing to have a discussion with DrCool about computers, but anytime someone disagrees with him, he gets defensive and calls them ignorant and questions their experience. It's the same in every thread, this isn't the first. If it were, I'd go a bit softer on him.

Finally, DrCool, I don't need any benchmarks to know my system plays Counterstrike: Source a hell of a lot smoother with a gig versus 512. I've taken a stick out before to see. I'm not even going to begin to try to play FarCry with 512. The high end gaming systems you recomend are built for good gaming with games that are out now. When people build, they aren't building it for everything that is out now, but rather a year or two from now. You try to play Daikatana or DN: Forever with a A64 3000+, 128 meg video card, and 512 megs of ram, and well.... welcome to upgrading.

Bottom line for those of you who don't understand the backlash, DrCool appears to have an ego about his "experience" and "knowledge" which I have seen few people support, but many more discredit.

Edited: I wanted to add something in. Here is something from a PM DrCool sent me... "I've built, upgraded and supported more computers then you'll probably ever see in your lifetime." To that I have to respond... What do I do for a living? I design a build systems for home and business users. I won't bother responding to the rest of your idiodic PM DrCool.

 

[erikistired]

do people actually play daikatana?

 

[DGath]

Originally posted by: fisher
do people actually play daikatana?

LOL... wait a minute, Daikatana was actually released? I quite paying attention years ago. So anyways.... by that comment in my last post, I just meant the next generation of games that will come out.

Next thing you are going to tell me is TF: 2 was released. What the hell else did I miss when I was in college?

 

[erikistired]

daikatana WAS released and it was HORRID, probably why you didn't know. but yeah, duke forever the game that shall never be released and tf:2, the game time forgot.

 

[Thermalrock]

Originally posted by: DGath
1) An LCD screen on a budget computer?
2) Wireless mouse on a budget system?
3) 256 Megs on a budget system? Budget means you are cutting corners and 128 megs is the most common thing to do. Budget gets 128, average user gets 256, and top of the line home gets 512. I won't build systems with 128 megs and XP, but then again... I don't build budget/shortcut systems.
4) Why the hell does a BBB home user system need a gig of ram?
5) Why does a BBB home user need anything more than a sempron? 2600 is a great processor, but I think way more than a home user needs. I just built a 2600 with 256 for a friend and it is way more than he needs.
6) Why two optical drives? Only reason to have to is for a moron who doesn't know how to copy an audio CD too a HDD, which Nero will automatically do. The systems I build for clients, I don't use two optical drives on a system with a DVD burner unless they ask for them. Systems with a DVD-rom is another story.
7) 240 meg storage for a home user? Please! 40 is more than enough for 90% of the people I build systems for.
8) XP Pro? WTF? Please tell me you know the differences. If so, why does the average home user need pro? Also... Pro is the opposite of bang for your buck.
9) LOL... a 64 3000+ and 512 megs of ram is cutting edge for gaming? You put 1 gig for a BBB home user! Ever play Farcry? Doom3?
10) Why would you pair a z680 set with onboard sound? Onboard sound is usually enough for most people, hell it's what I use and I'm happy with it. But then again, I didn't buy one of the best 5.1 systems available. If I'm spending money on that, you bet your ass I'm buying an Audigy equivelent card.

I'm speechless really. Apparently that thread where you built a way out of whack system for a guy about a week ago wasn't an abnormality, but apparently it's pretty common. I'm not saying that you are flat out wrong, building systems is all about opinion. Just to reiterate what I told you about a week ago, unless there is overclocking happening, you don't need anything more than valueram. It all runs at the same speed. It's like saying a Porsche runs faster at 45 MPH than a Ford. With lifetime warranties on ram, if a stick is giving your errors, RMA it.

Like I said, this whole thing is all opinion. I'm not going to say you are wrong or stupid, but I just really really disagree with a lot of advice you handed out in this and other threads. You tend to stick solely with the highest quality names, which sometimes doesn't always equal the highest quality parts. Your idea of top of the line brands is out of whack as well. The builders on Anandtech typically prefer the top 20% of components, you appear to go with the top 5% typically.

I used to think that the only high quality computer you could have was an Antec PSU with an Asus board and matched sticks of ram. Then I realized I was paying premiums for those companies marketing performance. Then I learned a lot of things and realized that a lot of my opinions were incorrect and I was being way too picky. I'm sure some of my opinions right now are wrong too. I've met a lot of people in the industry and nobody I've met is perfect in regards to non-biased, perfect advice.

I think I'll stick with the forum's System Builders Guide.

noone gets 128mb ram that would just be stupid. budget pc 512mb noname ram midlevel 1gb. high end either > 1gb or 1gb high performance ram. 512 mb noname ddr is like what? 60 bucks. theres definitely no need to save on this. my pc was midlevel pc when i bought it more than 3 years ago and it came with 512mb. even back then the pcs sold with only 256 were rare and pcs with 128 practically non existent.

 

[Tostada]

Originally posted by: Thermalrock
noone gets 128mb ram that would just be stupid. budget pc 512mb noname ram midlevel 1gb. high end either > 1gb or 1gb high performance ram. 512 mb noname ddr is like what? 60 bucks. theres definitely no need to save on this. my pc was midlevel pc when i bought it more than 3 years ago and it came with 512mb. even back then the pcs sold with only 256 were rare and pcs with 128 practically non existent.

You're both exaggerating a little. Yes, it's true that 128MB is ridiculous, but you're also lying when you say that 256MB PCs were rare 3 years ago, and the worst possible noname RAM is still $70 for 512MB. Three years ago, only the highest-end systems came with more than 256MB. 256MB was common 3 years ago and it's still common today. Go to Dell and you will see that all their standard systems come with 256MB except for the ones at 3.2 GHz and above with DDR2.

That said, if you're building a system, I would absolutely put 512MB in anything but the cheapest system. The minimum system I will actually recommend is a Sempron 2400 on an NF2 IGP board with 512MB. Still, if somebody wants something dirt cheap for mostly office work, there's really nothing at all wrong with building a system with a SiS chipset and 256MB (I mention the SiS chipset because that's the kind of budget you have to be on before 256MB is practical).

Upgrading from 256MB to 512MB isn't going to make a web page load faster. It's not going to make your Microsoft Word experience more satisfying. Some people might as well save the $40.

 

[Gothgar]

Originally posted by: Tostada

Originally posted by: Thermalrock
noone gets 128mb ram that would just be stupid. budget pc 512mb noname ram midlevel 1gb. high end either > 1gb or 1gb high performance ram. 512 mb noname ddr is like what? 60 bucks. theres definitely no need to save on this. my pc was midlevel pc when i bought it more than 3 years ago and it came with 512mb. even back then the pcs sold with only 256 were rare and pcs with 128 practically non existent.

You're both exaggerating a little. Yes, it's true that 128MB is ridiculous, but you're also lying when you say that 256MB PCs were rare 3 years ago, and the worst possible noname RAM is still $70 for 512MB. Three years ago, only the highest-end systems came with more than 256MB. 256MB was common 3 years ago and it's still common today. Go to Dell and you will see that all their standard systems come with 256MB except for the ones at 3.2 GHz and above with DDR2.

That said, if you're building a system, I would absolutely put 512MB in anything but the cheapest system. The minimum system I will actually recommend is a Sempron 2400 on an NF2 IGP board with 512MB. Still, if somebody wants something dirt cheap for mostly office work, there's really nothing at all wrong with building a system with a SiS chipset and 256MB (I mention the SiS chipset because that's the kind of budget you have to be on before 256MB is practical).

Upgrading from 256MB to 512MB isn't going to make a web page load faster. It's not going to make your Microsoft Word experience more satisfying. Some people might as well save the $40.

that 40 bucks will make a nice difference if you plan on running windows xp...

256 ram on WinXP is not fun.

ON 2000< it will be okay...

 

[Tostada]

Originally posted by: Gothgar
that 40 bucks will make a nice difference if you plan on running windows xp...

256 ram on WinXP is not fun.

ON 2000< it will be okay...

Like I said, I wouldn't recommend it, but it's not that bad. I've got an old P2-300 laptop sitting next to me with 256MB (max it can handle) running XP, and it doesn't do a lot of swapping. The CPU makes it unusable for anything but the web and office stuff, but if you only keep one thing open at a time (which is a given for a P2-300 with a 1024x768 screen), the RAM is the least of its problems.

 

[Thermalrock]

well the store i went to had 512 mb for all midrange pcs 3 years ago. i didnt say i bought lowend. i bought midrange and 256mb was what cheap comps came with in the midrange it was rare. im not lying about that. i know 10+ ppl who bought a comp 2-3.5 years ago and they all got 512 xept a girl who got a 256mb one but upgraded to 512 cuz it didnt run that smooth.

theres no pc with 128mb and there hasnt been in a long time period.

 

[Sideswipe001]

Originally posted by: Gothgar

Originally posted by: Tostada

Originally posted by: Thermalrock
noone gets 128mb ram that would just be stupid. budget pc 512mb noname ram midlevel 1gb. high end either > 1gb or 1gb high performance ram. 512 mb noname ddr is like what? 60 bucks. theres definitely no need to save on this. my pc was midlevel pc when i bought it more than 3 years ago and it came with 512mb. even back then the pcs sold with only 256 were rare and pcs with 128 practically non existent.

You're both exaggerating a little. Yes, it's true that 128MB is ridiculous, but you're also lying when you say that 256MB PCs were rare 3 years ago, and the worst possible noname RAM is still $70 for 512MB. Three years ago, only the highest-end systems came with more than 256MB. 256MB was common 3 years ago and it's still common today. Go to Dell and you will see that all their standard systems come with 256MB except for the ones at 3.2 GHz and above with DDR2.

That said, if you're building a system, I would absolutely put 512MB in anything but the cheapest system. The minimum system I will actually recommend is a Sempron 2400 on an NF2 IGP board with 512MB. Still, if somebody wants something dirt cheap for mostly office work, there's really nothing at all wrong with building a system with a SiS chipset and 256MB (I mention the SiS chipset because that's the kind of budget you have to be on before 256MB is practical).

Upgrading from 256MB to 512MB isn't going to make a web page load faster. It's not going to make your Microsoft Word experience more satisfying. Some people might as well save the $40.

that 40 bucks will make a nice difference if you plan on running windows xp...

256 ram on WinXP is not fun.

ON 2000< it will be okay...

I tend to agree. I can tell a difference in desktop usage between 256 MB and 512 MB of RAM.

I believe DrCool is arguing that RAM doesn't affect FPS (which is generally true). If you start a game and stand still with a FPS meter running, you won't see a difference between 512 and 1 GB of RAM. You see the difference when you walk around and the computer loads/switches out textures.

As a note, DrCool has never "rebutted" DAPUNISHERs very good and intelligent arguments from earlier, and I would second all that he said there, as the RAM argument is along the same lines. More RAM does not add more maximum FPS. It helps in the random unpredictable running around and shooting or whatever in games. Nothing FutureMark makes will reflect this.

If you want to see RAM influnce your game play, then play the right games. Microsoft Paint doesn't care if you have 256 MB of RAM, but Adobe Photoshop sure does. The specific program matters a lot when it comes to RAM.

 

[Thermalrock]

anyway im not american i dont really know what your stores sell for what price exactly in what quantities. we buy alil different amd had a 40%+ market share here for a while when not to long ago america was still all intel. but i promise 512 has been standard here for a long long time now and prolly in america too unless you talk the lowest low end. i used to play games back then and all the americans i know had 512 mb. almost noone went 1gb back then tho while now a bunch of ppl do.

 

[ZobarStyl]

I think we should've all let this thread die when we saw that is was started by a 20 year old kid with such a preposterous self-inflating name...I mean, not only is he a doctor, but he's cool! He must rock!

Seriously, it's not like you made a bad guide, it's just mediocre at best. You aren't ripping people off, but anyone who built a 2500 machine like that would expect a lot more performance than that. Go back to the drawing board, and here's a quick hint, go check out Anand's previous guides. That might give you an idea of what's going wrong.