Originally posted by: Freejack2
That's why the first Moller M400's will only be allowed to take off and land from airports. They initially will only be a fancy plane that people will need a pilots license for.
Please take this from someone who is both a fixed-wing and a helicopter pilot and understands what is involved here.
The Moller 400 will *not* happen as they advertise it. Aviation costs just do not fall into line with costs you'd expect everywhere else in life. They have been self-insuring, when they have to go buy liability insurance protection (the FAA is going to require it), it will double the price outright. The cost per hour to fly that thing is something else that isn't included in those figures. Even if they were free the cost per hour will keep it out of the hands of everyone but the uber rich, and they can just buy helicopters and airplanes that are proven designs.
Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see this happen, but it won't. Look at the Eclipse 500 personal jet, they have been trying very hard to make that work for $900,000 purchase price, but it just isn't going to happen there either.
You cannot violate the laws of known materials in the process of creating a wonder aircraft. If you could, you'd make billions selling said materials to the military.
You need about 650HP to do what they claim, you cannot generate 650HP on 15GPH of fuel burn using 8 small engines that have to make something fly. If you could, the military would LOVE to buy them. Why bother with the expensive and risky Moller 400, just sell the rights to the engines to Bell Helicopter for several billion dollars.
$500,000 to $1,000,000 will be a bargain for wealthy people.
Again, it isn't the purchase price, but rather the cost per hour to fly it.
It will burn perhaps 30 gallons per hour of fuel. That is about $60/hr for fuel. Then you'll need insurance which will not be cheap, count on perhaps $500 a month for that if you're already a rated pilot with some experience. Then there is $400 a month for hanger space, $2,000 a year for annual inspections, several thousand more a year for reserves to cover time life limited parts, then of course when the engines reach TBO (time between overhaul), don't be shocked when they cost $15,000 each to replace (times 8 of course).
BTW, that is a good way to give you an idea of costs in aviation. The engine in a Cessna 172 Skyhawk is a basic 4 cyliner carbureted engine that puts out 160hp. To buy a brand new engine from Lycoming costs $23,000. To buy a remanfactured engine costs about $15,000. To field overhual the engine costs about $12,000.
The engine lasts about 2,000 or so. Assuming these new engines last 2,000 hours (that will be figured out in FAA testing), if you have the engines on 3 hours a day (going to work, picking up the kids, etc), that means you'll need new engines every two years. That would be $60,000 a year just for engines (remember it has 8 engines). Even if the cost is half, that is still $30,000 a year for engines. Even if it 1/4 it would still be $15,000 a year for engines.
Sounds absurd, right? Yes, it is, but that is just how the business is.
The engine on the helicopter that blew a few months ago puts out 450hp. It was over $70,000 to replace. That is just what stuff costs in the flying business.
The idea from what I understand is when it is feasible for computers to fly these, we'll be able to drive them from our homes to work or where ever. I imagine it's a good 20 to 40 years away from that.
It isn't really the computers, those could be worked out in 10 years if the resources were put to them.
It is the overall cost. Even if you gave them away, people couldn't afford to own them. Even if you just used it 1 hour a day, it would cost you over $22,000 a year just in fuel alone to fly it. Expect it to cost more like $100,000 a year if you really wanted to use this as daily trasportation.
Again, even if it was free and given away, the ongoing costs are out of the reach of almost everyone. That is really what has to change, but nothing in the Moller 400 really deals with that.
Moller has been working on this for 20 years, good idea, but it won't be happening any time soon.
There is a reason why the Bell 206 JetRanger III costs $500 per hour to fly.
Passengers 4
Maximum speed 380 MPH
Cruise speed 290 MPH
The issues with making anything not turbine powered fly at these speeds are so high it is laughable.
Even the Cessna 421C which uses a pair of 375HP engines (750HP total) only flies at 275mph. Oh, and it burns 54 gallons per hour to do this to boot.
It is one of the fastest and most powerful piston airplanes around. Beyond that you have to go to turbo props and jets to go faster.
This assumes low fuel burn and the above high speeds. I would bet a thousand bucks these numbers are pure fantasy.
Also fantasy, for reasons that would take too long to get into here.
Hopper