Dx10 and Vista only

[Kalmah]

I'm interested in seeing how games are going to look once dx10 has taken over. (not particularly first generation dx10 games.. but games further in the future)

But dx10 only being supported by vista is just ugly man. I'm happy with xp for now and don't wish to fork over ~$300(or whatever it's going to be) for a new OS.

And I caught some info about dx10 games able to be be 100% compatable with xbox without any further altering of code. Nice move on M$'s part if it's true. I wonder how it will affect the console -v- pc market. I don't like the idea though. There is a reason why I like pc games better than console games. I wonder if we'll be forced to plug an x-box controller into our pcs in the future to play them. :disgust:

 

[InlineFive]

By the time that the need for a system to play DX10 is needed the price of Vista will have fallen to a reasonable amount.

And when Microsoft says that DX10 games will be cross-platform, I think they mean it. I bet that when using a PC you could use a keyboard, and on an Xbox, you would use a normal controller. Although those are just my thoughts.

 

[intogamer]

Maybe someone can emulate it on Windows XP

 

[InlineFive]

Originally posted by: intogamer
Maybe someone can emulate it on Windows XP

I don't know very much about the current state of emulation technology but I bet that DX10 on Windows XP would be very slow.

 

[fyleow]

..

 

[aka1nas]

It is mostly the new driver model, which is also neccessary for Aero glass. It would probably be a fairly large effort to add it to XP, and there is little financial reason for them to do so.

 

[Link19]

They should make DX10 available for Windows XP because Windows XP is a quality OS. Is is extremely sad that DX9 was made compatible with POS Windows 98/ME while DX10 won't be made available for Windows XP. :frown:

It should have been the other way around. Future versions of DX should be made compatible with the older good operating systems, while they shouldn't be made compatible with the completely different and crappy low end operating systems.

 

[Kalmah]

Originally posted by: intogamer
Maybe someone can emulate it on Windows XP

Well, as far as I know Open-Gl was able to emulate dx9 pretty well. But it does suck some extra performance because it has to take the dx9 code and change into something that opengl can work with.

I could be wrong on this or have a mis-understanding about it. It is a bit over my head.

 

[Nothinman]

I wonder how it will affect the console -v- pc market. I don't like the idea though.

Probably not much other than making more games available for both. Games that would have been XBox-only or Windows-only in the past will now be able to run on both without much work so any developer with half a brain will release on both.

There is a reason why I like pc games better than console games. I wonder if we'll be forced to plug an x-box controller into our pcs in the future to play them.

I'm not sure what that reason could be though, besides the obvious advantage to using a keyboard+mouse in RTS and FPS games I don't think the PC has any real advantage over consoles. Or at least I don't think PC games are good enough for me to spend my money on any more. And I really doubt you'll be forced to use an XBox controller on your PC, but I'm sure a lot of people would like the option.

They should make DX10 available for Windows XP because Windows XP is a quality OS.

It's called progress, MS has to find some way to make Vista appealing enough for people to buy and their biggest (and only) real weapon is forced obsolescence of their older products. And the fact that you deem one of them a certain quality has absolutely zero bearing on MS' plans.

Is is extremely sad that DX9 was made compatible with POS Windows 98/ME while DX10 won't be made available for Windows XP.

Get over it.

 

[Kalmah]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

I wonder how it will affect the console -v- pc market. I don't like the idea though.

Probably not much other than making more games available for both. Games that would have been XBox-only or Windows-only in the past will now be able to run on both without much work so any developer with half a brain will release on both.

Did you see what Bethesda did to Oblivion to make it work for both pc and xbox? They dumbed it down so that the xbox kiddies could play it. Console and pc are totally different markets in my opinion. Allthough they both have their advantages, for instance sports games are definatly better suited for consoles, but when it comes to complex rpgs and strategy games it's a completely different situation.

 

[MrChad]

This has been discussed on this forum before. DirectX 10 relies heavily on Vista's new driver model. Backporting it to XP would be a significant effort for Microsoft.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1982100,00.asp

ExtremeTech: Part of what you said about making the whole thing more efficient relies on the new driver model in Vista, is that right?

Blythe: That is correct.

ExtremeTech: A lot of people are complaining, "Oh, why won't we have DirectX 10 for Windows XP." There's a good technical explanation for that, where it's really not possible to do what DX10 does in the Windows XP driver model.


Blythe: Definitely in the long term there's a vision in how we think the applications and the runtime and the hardware need to work together. What we've done in Vista was to make some major changes to try to improve that. We've got a number of additional things we wanted to do over the next few years to try to make that even better, and it's just hard to say, "oh well we'll just retrofit all that into Windows XP." That kind of put us in this position of saying, do we really want to get all these big improvements, and what do we have to give up in order to do it?

 

[Nothinman]

Did you see what Bethesda did to Oblivion to make it work for both pc and xbox? They dumbed it down so that the xbox kiddies could play it. Console and pc are totally different markets in my opinion. Allthough they both have their advantages, for instance sports games are definatly better suited for consoles, but when it comes to complex rpgs and strategy games it's a completely different situation.

No, I didn't, I've never seen Oblivion except for the intro level at a friend's house. Obviously not all games translate equally between keyboard/mouse and gamepad, but you can't really blame MS for Bethesda's f' up. And I like how you refer to XBox owners as "kiddies" because anyone not serious enough about gaming to spend $600 on a single video card is obviously a child.

 

[Beev]

He was just generalizing. I generally consider all console-only gamers to be kiddies, but I own all of the current consoles and I'm sure many others do too that aren't kiddy. Consoles are marketed to kids, regardless of what the console companies themselves say. Of course, when I think of kids I think of anyone under 20.

 

[Nothinman]

He was just generalizing.

I realize that and that's not the problem, calling them "kiddies" trying to make PC gamers look more mature is when that's obviously not the case. The people I run into when I do the little bit of online gaming that I do these days seems proof enough that PC gamers are at least just as immature as console owners. And to top it off just about everyone I know that owns an XBox is over 20 so they don't even fall into your definition of kid so his generalization makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[w00t]

console gaming....ewwww

vista.....ewww

this sucks

 

[xylem]

This is pretty disappointing... using DX 10 as leverage to force people to buy thier new OS. I'm still waiting for sound card drivers to upgrade to XP 64. I will be using XP 64, but with less software product options, i guess, unless they create a version to work with XP.

 

[Stumps]

Originally posted by: Link19
They should make DX10 available for Windows XP because Windows XP is a quality OS. Is is extremely sad that DX9 was made compatible with POS Windows 98/ME while DX10 won't be made available for Windows XP. :frown:

It should have been the other way around. Future versions of DX should be made compatible with the older good operating systems, while they shouldn't be made compatible with the completely different and crappy low end operating systems.

not you again!

Your Famous Link19

Lucky you...you made in to the AT-wiki who's who's section

 

[bersl2]

Originally posted by: Kalmah

Originally posted by: intogamer
Maybe someone can emulate it on Windows XP

Well, as far as I know Open-Gl was able to emulate dx9 pretty well. But it does suck some extra performance because it has to take the dx9 code and change into something that opengl can work with.

I could be wrong on this or have a mis-understanding about it. It is a bit over my head.

You're thinking of WINE and/or Cedega. Native OpenGL libraries written for Windows interact with the hardware (almost) exactly like Direct3D, and any changes that have to be made to make code cross-platform is all done compile-side; no run-time translation is done at all.

OpenGL will be able to bring support for the hardware feature set that MS demands of the GPU companies for D3D10 to Windows XP; I don't see any reason why it can't be done, and I hope that game companies start realizing that using OpenGL instead of Direct3D is to their advantage.

 

[doornail]

I think it's funny that you can take a feature-rich OpenGL game like DOOM3 and run it on Voodoo2 from 1998:

http://www.firingsquad.com/media/gallery_index.asp?media_id=244

But "super advanced" DirectX can't fall back gracefully from 10 to 9. Go go forced obsolescence.

Where would you like to go today -- that co-incides with where we want you?

 

[Nothinman]

But "super advanced" DirectX can't fall back gracefully from 10 to 9. Go go forced obsolescence.

That's not totally true, I think you'll be able to run DX9 games in DX10 but you can't run DX10 games in DX9 because of the different hardware support. So while DX10 games can't "fall back" and be able to run with ealier libraries DX10 should provide all of the necessary compatibility to run older games. And that's usually the compatibility direction that most people care about.

 

[n0cmonkey]

If Microsoft can't give you what you want, just go with a different vendor.

 

[JasonCoder]

Some random thread thoughts:

- along with direct access to the hardware for windows games wasn't DX originally a way to abstract away the different sets of hardware and provide one api for the developer? A console has one set of hardware... why would I use DX and not go straight to the hardware? Ergo, why would DX10 availability to a console mean anything?

- Oblivion runs well on a PC and does great on a 360... why the bitching? It's a great game... do you need more than 50fps?

- Why do people on a PC feel the need to snob consoles? I like both but honestly the console is a much better platform for gaming. Cost, one set of hardware for the devs == better perf, parental controls, etc.

- If you don't like DX games, vote with your wallet and only buy OpenGL games.

 

[Nothinman]

why would I use DX and not go straight to the hardware? Ergo, why would DX10 availability to a console mean anything?

Obviously to make porting to Windows or vice versa easier. Chances are that the DX calls on the 360 go directly the hardware as fast as possible anyway so I doubt there would be any noticable overhead to using them.

do you need more than 50fps?

I haven't played Oblivion so I don't know the specifics but the issue probably isn't the max or min FPS but the average, a game that jumps between 50-80 is going to be more difficult to control than one that's steady right around 50 fps.

- Why do people on a PC feel the need to snob consoles?

The probably feel a need to justify the outrageous prices they paid for their PC, when the video card you just bought costs more than the entire console you want the thing to perform better than the console too.

- If you don't like DX games, vote with your wallet and only buy OpenGL games.

That pretty much limits you to id's games, UT (only cause it does both AFAIK) and Linux games.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

- Why do people on a PC feel the need to snob consoles?

The probably feel a need to justify the outrageous prices they paid for their PC, when the video card you just bought costs more than the entire console you want the thing to perform better than the console too.

Ever play on Xbox Live? The community is worse than Counter-Strike and WoW.....


Besides, a $1300 gaming PC is far cheaper than a $400 Xbox 360 and a $2000 HDTV that is needed to make it look as nice as a PC.

 

[w00t]

I am sick of ms windows and there bs......

I want Mac OS X on my PC natively I wish apple would release it to the PC than maybe more game developers would make there games compatible with Mac OS X.