DX10 video cards

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Lifer
Jun 27, 2004
10,233
2
71
Originally posted by: Acanthus
They dropped pretty much every useful feature they were adding to vista over XP.

Its basically windows 2000 3.0 until they add them.

Um, like what?
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Malak... Why do you always treat others with such disrespect? I can't believe you get away with it.

What disrespect? The guy attacked my question and I responded, as kindly as can be. If anything, I was disrespected. You have a very confusing view
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Oh, and for the rest of you, Crysis isn't even on my radar. The game I am looking forward to is already in a playable phase, and will probably be coming out this year. It sounds like they will be updating it for dx10 though, so I want to be prepared. That is why when Vista comes out, I will be getting a dx10 video card with it. Which is why I posed the question. Considering how quickly video cards are snatched up(I was one of only a few that got my video card when it came out), I was hoping we'd see dx10 cards come out before I was going to purchase one so that it'd go through the low-supply phase before I wanted to get one.

DX10 is coming, sooner than you guys realize. If you want to wait 3 years to upgrade, go ahead. You'll be far, far behind.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Malak
Oh, and for the rest of you, Crysis isn't even on my radar. The game I am looking forward to is already in a playable phase, and will probably be coming out this year. It sounds like they will be updating it for dx10 though, so I want to be prepared. That is why when Vista comes out, I will be getting a dx10 video card with it. Which is why I posed the question. Considering how quickly video cards are snatched up(I was one of only a few that got my video card when it came out), I was hoping we'd see dx10 cards come out before I was going to purchase one so that it'd go through the low-supply phase before I wanted to get one.

DX10 is coming, sooner than you guys realize. If you want to wait 3 years to upgrade, go ahead. You'll be far, far behind.

you will NOT need a DX10 card to play Halo2 . . . just Vista . . . and there will likely be ZERO difference between what you actually see when you play it with a DX10 or DX9 card.

There are only likely a few DX10 extensions . . . that'll probably slow your new card to a crawl.

NOT worth it IMO . . . but then some people must have the latest . . .

. . . nVidia/ATi loves you.

Look for the first DX10 cards Q4 this year [maybe a bit sooner or the next Q].
 

stelleg151

Senior member
Sep 2, 2004
822
0
0
I dont think halo will be a crap port and a I do think it will do a good job of showcasing some of DX10's new capabilities. Why? Because M$ needs to sell people on DX10, and thus on Vista.

As for the people who are saying it takes 3 years AFTER a gaming platform has come out to make a decent game?? Sooo, XBox360 was completed and finalized 3 years ago? And playstation 3 was finilazed 2.5 years ago before the Cell existed? Im sorry but they definately start games before finalization and maybe make a few tweaks late in the game as the platform is finished up.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
you will NOT need a DX10 card to play Halo2 . . . just Vista . . . and there will likely be ZERO difference between what you actually see when you play it with a DX10 or DX9 card.There are only likely a few DX10 extensions . . . that'll probably slow your new card to a crawl.

No offense apoppin, but I don't think you have any clue what DX10 is bringing. The entire driver structure in Vista is changing. DX10 will be Vista-only because of that. DX10 games can only be played on Vista because of this. DX10 features can only be used by DX10 video cards, and all of them will support them same features, no more variations of shaders and whatnot. The difference between nvidia and ati will be strictly performance this time around.

And halo has absolutely nothing to do with it, once again. Doesn't anyone here keep up with dx10 and the next wave of gaming? Hell I'm retired from the scene and even I know what's coming.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: stelleg151
I dont think halo will be a crap port and a I do think it will do a good job of showcasing some of DX10's new capabilities. Why? Because M$ needs to sell people on DX10, and thus on Vista.

As for the people who are saying it takes 3 years AFTER a gaming platform has come out to make a decent game?? Sooo, XBox360 was completed and finalized 3 years ago? And playstation 3 was finilazed 2.5 years ago before the Cell existed? Im sorry but they definately start games before finalization and maybe make a few tweaks late in the game as the platform is finished up.
they have been working on the xbox360 games for a couiple of years . . . and haven't begun to tap that platform's capability.

the first FULL DX10 games are gonna take at least a couple of years to produce. . . . still looking at '09.

Halo 2 and other hastily rushed ports won't even [start to] begin to tap into DX10's capability

Heck, we haven't really seen DX9 titles really utilize ANYwhere it's potential . . . . Unreal3 might . . . and look how long DX9 has been out.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Malak
Originally posted by: apoppin
you will NOT need a DX10 card to play Halo2 . . . just Vista . . . and there will likely be ZERO difference between what you actually see when you play it with a DX10 or DX9 card.There are only likely a few DX10 extensions . . . that'll probably slow your new card to a crawl.

No offense apoppin, but I don't think you have any clue what DX10 is bringing. The entire driver structure in Vista is changing. DX10 will be Vista-only because of that. DX10 games can only be played on Vista because of this. DX10 features can only be used by DX10 video cards, and all of them will support them same features, no more variations of shaders and whatnot. The difference between nvidia and ati will be strictly performance this time around.

And halo has absolutely nothing to do with it, once again. Doesn't anyone here keep up with dx10 and the next wave of gaming? Hell I'm retired from the scene and even I know what's coming.

and now that i read your posts i am certain you don't have ANY clue at all about the nonsense you posted above.
:thumbsdown:

i'll let others explain it to you

Vista/DX10 is having no major impact on games . . . for at least a couple of years . . . AFTER that, what you say may apply.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
i'll let others explain it to you

Well I'll explain it one last time. The development team for the game I'm anticipating has already put out a request for a dx10 developer, which tells me they are getting started NOW. Whatever you believe, you can go on believing. Doesn't sound to me like you know anything, you are just riding the bandwagon of thought. I will follow the industry and what they are doing, thank you. I don't know why I bother coming to this forum anymore, the video forum is just as bad as P&N...
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Malak
Originally posted by: apoppin
i'll let others explain it to you

Well I'll explain it one last time. The development team for the game I'm anticipating has already put out a request for a dx10 developer, which tells me they are getting started NOW. Whatever you believe, you can go on believing. Doesn't sound to me like you know anything, you are just riding the bandwagon of thought. I will follow the industry and what they are doing, thank you. I don't know why I bother coming to this forum anymore, the video forum is just as bad as P&N...

well, duh . . . of course they are looking for a DX10 developer . . . they will actually need him pretty soon . . . IF M$ gets the Specs finalized soon.

But the game you are talking about is actually a DX9 game . . . with DX10 extensions . . . unless they are holding back on the actual programming [they are gonna need DX 10 cards, too] . . .

and if they are waiting for the DX10 spec for a "full DX 10 game" [assuming the story is written, the voice acting completed - HIGHly UNlikely] . . . it's STILL gonna be a couple of years . . . and the DX10 card you buy THIS year will be too SLOW to run the damn game when it is finally released.

Your topic is simply premature . . . sorry you don't like hearing the reality.

and with your 'tude, we'll miss you

:roll:
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,955
2,277
136
Malak. Go read my original post in this thread. I didn't go around calling you ignorant. You're the one who started the insults in this thread, which I didn't respond back in kind. I merely said who cares about DX10's release because I don't believe it will have any significant presense as far as game wise goes until 2008. That's two years off. Nothing you have posted has contradicted this. In fact, you post that the game you are interested in (which you never name) is hiring people for development of that game. That means that they are just now starting to do development work. You mention that this mysterious game you are so excited about is now hiring people for development. That means that until a full team is assembled, there is a limited amount that they can do to make the game. Even after a team is fully assembled it is going to take roughly two years or so to get the game finished. This is going by a schedule shorter than the 3 year development cycle for a single game that has been stated by multiple industry insiders from both the console and the PC side of gaming development. This would point to you invalidating your own belief that DX10 will have any impact on the gaming world for at least two more years as most believe.

There is a world of difference between putting out a tech demo as Crytek did and putting out a full fledged game. Even if a games company is developing a DX10 game right now (or let's say Jan'06) on pre-final specs it would still take them until '08 to make any attempt at a decent game or at least one that makes good use of the feature set of DX10 and is not merely a slightly enhanced DX9 game. A tech demo can be whipped up in almost no time, especially if the artwork is already available. A full game is a more difficult beast and takes a long long time in todays gaming industry. We all know a game can be put out in a years time but those are usually sequels or yearly updates (Madden NFL for instance). However, for new games, a 1 year to 1.5 year development cycle would point to either a very simplistic game by todays standard (making it a bad candidate for DX10) or one that is full of bugs and missing features (making it a game you wouldn't want).

For the first generation of DX10 video cards to have any impact it'd the game would have to be out by the first half of 2007. Because I'm sure by roughly mid 2007 we will have another update cycle to our video cards. That means whatever game you're interested in has to be out in the first half of 2007 for the first generation of DX10 cards to have any impact. This is a far fetched scenario. Thus, who cares about DX10 at this time. Anyone who looks at it would figure the late 2007 video card release (likely the 3rd DX10 card releases) will be the ones that would be worth getting as far as looking for DX10 compliance goes.

This topic has been covered many times before in this section of the AT forums and like I said, there have been at least 3 threads covering just this topic in the last couple of months.

Malak, your attitude is as bad or worse than some of the people you're criticising and you say you're explaining things but you're ignoring everything everyone has said about why DX10 will have no impact until 2008. Nothing you have said so far has changed anyone's mind that DX10 will have no significant impact until 2008. The only thing you've done is raised my curiosity about this supposedly mysterious game you keep mentioning but never name. And lastly, you starting the name calling is a good way to present your case about the video forums being as bad as P&N.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,231
117
116
Sorry, I am not trying to hijack this thread or anything, but everyone here seems to have a great deal of knowledge on this subject.

My questions are slightly of-topic, but here it goes: what was the first DX9 capable card and is it still capable of playing the most recent games at decent frame rates?

The reason I am asking is I will be upgrading later this year and I will be stuck with whatever I get for at least a few years. Just trying to figure out whether a G80 or R600 will even be able to play the full-fledged DX10 games when they finally start to come out in a couple years. Of course history is not always an accurate indicator, but I figured it may shed some light on the subject.

Thanks for the help.

Cheers, KT
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

Anyway, check out the roadmap here:

Roadmap

This guy is usually spot on.

Edit: Cole's notes: Vista Nov. 15/06, R600 Oct/06, G80 sometime in the 2nd half of 06 (any time after June). Of course, everything is subject to change.

With the release of the 7900 series a G80 sooner than later can happen. Nvidia took the easy route with the 7900 series and did a basic redesign and die shrink. They probably dont have a lot invested in the design except the initial costs of the G70 design.

I still think it will show up in the fall sometime, like late August or Sept.



 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Sorry, I am not trying to hijack this thread or anything, but everyone here seems to have a great deal of knowledge on this subject.

My questions are slightly of-topic, but here it goes: what was the first DX9 capable card and is it still capable of playing the most recent games at decent frame rates?

The reason I am asking is I will be upgrading later this year and I will be stuck with whatever I get for at least a few years. Just trying to figure out whether a G80 or R600 will even be able to play the full-fledged DX10 games when they finally start to come out in a couple years. Of course history is not always an accurate indicator, but I figured it may shed some light on the subject.

Thanks for the help.

Cheers, KT
Disclaimer: this is from what i remember . . . i am heading to work and don't have tme to check for accuracy]

Late '02 ATi released - what i believe were - the first certified DX9 Drivers, Cat 3.0.

so that would probably be the 9700p as the first DX9 card [and nvidia's competing card - 5800{?} - card also had DX9 . . . but there was some 'controversy' around Computex '03 and DX9 "optimizations" for both companies.

i guess that would be around 3-1/2 years ago . . . i believe '04 saw the first DX9 games [whcih didn't run that well on a 9700p - like DE-IW]

i am sure someone will correct my fading memory


aloha
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Jeffreyg4
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: Jeffreyg4
Noob question, Why wont the newest cards of today (X1900XTX ext) be able to be software updated to DX10

Um... because you can't add hardware features in software (unless you use emulation, which is slow; see GMA900 and anything running vertex shaders).

my Geforce FX5200 (crap card) is running DX 9.0c (or whatever the newest one is called)

Having DX9.0c installed != able to use SM3.0.


But wait, when my card came out dx 9 wasent out, yet i could still upgrade.... so why wouldent a X1900XTX be able to upgrade to dx 10 (wich isent out when its released)

I'm not sure what you're smoking. The FX5200 is a DX9 card, just not DX9.0c (Shader Model 3.0). You can install the latest version of DirectX all you want, but your games still can't use SM3.0 shaders on your card. DirectX is just an API -- a set of standard functions that games can use to render things in a certain way. What the card actually can and cannot do in hardware is pretty much fixed.

I have no doubt you will be able to install Vista/DX10 in your system with most cards, just like you can install DX9.0c even if your card doesn't support SM2.0/3.0. But you won't get access to any new shader features unless ATI or NVIDIA provides drivers that can emulate them (either in hardware or software).
 

Ronin

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2001
4,563
1
0
server.counter-strike.net
DX10 has to be finalized (it's not). MS keeps changing what they want to do with it, putting the hardware manufacturers in a frustrating position, as they can't create something based on variable information.

BTW, you won't see Vista this year.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,231
117
116
Originally posted by: Ronin

BTW, you won't see Vista this year.

Speculation, or do you have a reliable source? Not disputing, just curious.
 

Ronin

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2001
4,563
1
0
server.counter-strike.net
As reliable as nVIDIA, ATi, and MS themselves can be (of course, nVIDIA and ATi are basing the information they have on what MS tells them, so I'm in the same boat).

There are a lot of variables about this launch that MS have to solidify, and they haven't done that. Their ideal launch time is July/August. Why? It's just before the school year starts, when PCs are bought like crazy. Forgoing that, they have the Christmas season, but that's not when they want to put it out there.
 

cockadoodledoo

Junior Member
Mar 11, 2006
2
0
0
To those that say Vista will require a dx10 video card you are wrong. Nvidia released the 7900 series that were built for Windows Vista.
 

jiffylube1024

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
7,430
0
71
Halo 2??? THAT is what everyone is waiting for? Guys Xboxes are cheap enough - do yourselves a favour and just play it on Xbox and quit encouraging the PC market of becoming a place for second-rate ports of 2 year old games!
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
Halo 2??? THAT is what everyone is waiting for? Guys Xboxes are cheap enough - do yourselves a favour and just play it on Xbox and quit encouraging the PC market of becoming a place for second-rate ports of 2 year old games!

naw . . . these guys are just "dreaming" of DX10 . . . when DX9 hasn't been fully utilized . . .

Halo2 is NOT a DX10 game . . . neither will Crysis be . .. .

you gotta wait until '09 for the FIRST full DX10 games . . . and the DX10 card you buy THIS year will be too SLOW to run it, ANYway.

And you do NOT need a DX 10 card to run Vista [which will be likely out NEXT year, anyway].

So . . . who cares?
:roll:
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
you gotta wait until '09 for the FIRST full DX10 games . . . and the DX10 card you buy THIS year will be too SLOW to run it, ANYway.

All false information based on zero experience and knowledge. Quit making things up apoppin.
 

TecHNooB

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
7,458
1
76
Originally posted by: Malak
Originally posted by: apoppin
you gotta wait until '09 for the FIRST full DX10 games . . . and the DX10 card you buy THIS year will be too SLOW to run it, ANYway.

All false information based on zero experience and knowledge. Quit making things up apoppin.

Makes sense to me - -;
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: Malak
Originally posted by: apoppin
you gotta wait until '09 for the FIRST full DX10 games . . . and the DX10 card you buy THIS year will be too SLOW to run it, ANYway.

All false information based on zero experience and knowledge. Quit making things up apoppin.

Yeah because those FX5800s can really crank out the frames in FEAR. Lets see how they do in unreal engine 3.

1st gen cards on a new version of DX ALWAYS do horribly on the new features introduced.

Buying a graphics card based on a game that isnt out is foolish, let alone based on games based on an API that isnt even finalized.
 
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