DX10 video cards

[thecoolnessrune]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Please forgive my ignorance on these matters, but wouldn't Nvidia and ATI be a little more 'in the loop' as far as DX10 requirements go? If the timelines I have seen remain in place, I do not see why the R600 could not be DX10 ready/compliant, though if G80 comes out in June it may be a bit of a stretch.

All I know is I want to be able to play Halo2 as close to max everything as I can, and I am pretty sure I will need DX10 compliance on my video card in order to do so.

I would agree with you except that by the time that is released, You'll be able to get an XBOX for like $50-$75 and a copy of Halo 2 for $20 from the bargain bin. Instead of a $150 copy of Vista and a $700 GPU

 

[GOREGRINDER]

halo2 huh,..lol

i figured anyone who gave a crap about halo prolly would already have an xbox anyway

isnt dx9.1 suppose to be coming out this summer?,... i thought s.t.a.l.k.e.r. used dx9.1 and that was part of the game delays..ill have to go search for teh material again but that would make more sense than dx10 being released in vista this fall at this point in the timeline of things..i think it would be funny if everyone is expecting g80 and such to be dx10 and they get thier 8900 home to see "full dx9.1 support!" on the front of the box

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
1st gen cards on a new version of DX ALWAYS do horribly on the new features introduced.

Buying a graphics card based on a game that isnt out is foolish, let alone based on games based on an API that isnt even finalized.

Radeon 9700 Pro not only did DX9 great, it did great for years. You could run Doom3 on medium-high settings despite it being nvidia biased.

A game can be designed and half coded before DX10 is finalized. The game I'm waiting on is already playable, adjusting it to fit with DX10 isn't going to take 3 years. It's all bogus info in this thread, nobody here knows anything.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: Acanthus
1st gen cards on a new version of DX ALWAYS do horribly on the new features introduced.

Buying a graphics card based on a game that isnt out is foolish, let alone based on games based on an API that isnt even finalized.

Radeon 9700 Pro not only did DX9 great, it did great for years. You could run Doom3 on medium-high settings despite it being nvidia biased.

A game can be designed and half coded before DX10 is finalized. The game I'm waiting on is already playable, adjusting it to fit with DX10 isn't going to take 3 years. It's all bogus info in this thread, nobody here knows anything.

Doom 3 isnt even direct X

Games that fully utilize DX9 features, like FEAR, HL2 lost coast, and others, preform horribly on a R9700. Hell even the next gen Geforce 6000 series struggles.

You know that the number of DX9 effects on Halo for pc you can count on one hand right?

They just toss in a couple extensions, its nowhere near DX9 native, hell you couldnt even tell the difference between DX9 and DX8 save the "invisibility" effect.

 

[LW07]

There will probably be a DX9 mode for these DX10 games coming out for at least 2 years. The Game developers will probably have to do a DX9 mode (I mean like how FEAR has DX 8 shader options and Half Life 2 has DX7 and DX8 modes and COD2 has a DX7 mode) for at least the first year or 2 because not everyone will have the money to buy vista and a DX10 card and anything else they might need the first year it comes out. So don't worry about DX10 right now. If the game developers went DX10 only during the first year or 2, people would probably not buy their games as not everyone has the money to get a good DX10 video card and the vista OS and any other stuff needed. It doesn't make sense to make a game that isn't compatible with most of everyone's systems. It's not going to be like DX10 and that stuff comes out and the next day, DX10 and Vista's already mainstream. It doesn't work that way. So I believe the game developers will continue to support DX9 for at least until 2008 or even 2009.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: apoppin
you gotta wait until '09 for the FIRST full DX10 games . . . and the DX10 card you buy THIS year will be too SLOW to run it, ANYway.

All false information based on zero experience and knowledge. Quit making things up apoppin.

well, everthing you posted here is based on your "wishful thinking".

Sorry for you, "reality" is not your strong point.

and you have not shared ANY of your "special knowledge & experience" because it's OBVIOUS you have NONE.

at least i can back up what i say.

================

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: Acanthus
1st gen cards on a new version of DX ALWAYS do horribly on the new features introduced.

Buying a graphics card based on a game that isnt out is foolish, let alone based on games based on an API that isnt even finalized.

Radeon 9700 Pro not only did DX9 great, it did great for years. You could run Doom3 on medium-high settings despite it being nvidia biased.

A game can be designed and half coded before DX10 is finalized. The game I'm waiting on is already playable, adjusting it to fit with DX10 isn't going to take 3 years. It's all bogus info in this thread, nobody here knows anything.

"half-coded?"
:roll:

what a load of BS . . . the more you say the sillier it looks. . . . but "no offence", Malak

let's see a 9700p run Oblivion . . . a "full DX9 game" . . . it could barely run DE:IW an EARLY DX9 game.

you have ZERO clue abut what you are talking . . . just "wishful thinking".
:thumbsdown:

go ahead and buy that early DX10 card . . . you deserve it.

 

[akugami]

As Acanthus said, and I've been saying it. Any so called DX10 game coming out in 2007 is one where they throw in a few DX10 effects but nothing that big. Anyone remember the really early DX9 games? They were barely any better visually than DX8 games because they were basically DX8 with a few extra DX9 features enabled. There's nothing to suggest this cycle will be any different regardless of the wishful thinking of anyone. Ronin, who works for a games developer, even confirms that DX10 is not complete. Different sources have stated that at the earliest we won't see Vista (hence DX10) until the end of the year or probably not at all this year.

That means that Vista will have a very small installed user base this year and that the earliest someone can develope DX10 games with the final DX10 API's are late 2006. Again, we'll go by the 3 year development cycle that most state they need to make a decent game (stated by both console and PC game developers). That means 2009 would be the release date, or at best 2008, of any games that really make use of DX10. This pretty much follows the path of DX9 which was released late 2002 if memory serves me correct. It wasn't until 2005 that we really saw games take advantage of the extra features in DX9. Not to say that some games didn't make use of a feature or two of DX9 before that, just nothing that was a jump up in quality (visual quality at least, you can have a pretty game that still sucks rocks).

Malak, with all due respect, what game are you waiting on? What is so secretive about this awesome game that you can't mention it's name? Will the developers decide not to further it's development if you mention it's name? What? Curious minds want to know. Or are you afraid we'll throw evidence to show it's either 1) Very early in development and won't be out for a while or 2) Halfway finished meaning it'll mostly be DX9 with a few DX10 features thrown in. So far the only games that are even hinted at using DX10 features are Halo2 and Crysis. Is there a 3rd mysterious game we don't really know about yet?

I stick to my original opinion. Buy what you need when you need it. If your upgrade cycle happens to be now, then by all means, choose either the 7900GTX or the X1900. Both have their positives and negatives. If your upgrade cycle coincides with the release of the first DX10 cards, then get it then. But I wouldn't wait on upgrading specifically for DX10 features at this time. I still say that late 2007 is when one should start looking towards DX10 compliant cards.

Halo and Halo2 didn't impress me at all. If you want real Bungie games, check out Marathon Infinity and Myth. Now those were some games...to this day, Marathon Infinity had some of the most memorable multi-player gaming I have ever experienced. Marathon was open sourced before Bungie was bought by MS so while the graphics may suck, the multi-player fun is there in all it's glory. Funny with all the graphical advances over the years and one of the games I've ever had the most fun on is one that was in pseudo 3D much like Doom. Heck, it was out at the same time as Doom and a much much better game. Alas, it was never that popular in the PC world since it was mainly a Mac game.

 

[aka1nas]

Has anyone seen a more recent whitepaper or feature set for DX10? Most of what I found on google was from 2003ish and I was wondering what MS had cut or added since then.

I also agree that it is a dumb move to wait on first-gen DX hardware. The 9700 Pro might have been a moderate exception, Malak. I did own that card and to be honest, much of that can be attributed to ATI having an excellent design and terrible initial drivers that improved over time. Also, don't confuse a 9700 with a 9800-based card. The 9800s still often hold their own in raw-performance with current budget and midrange cards. The 9700 series is a somewhat weaker beast, though still impressive for it's age.

Pretty much every other first-gen card of a new DX generation was fairly weak. This held true for the Geforce3 and FX series. I never owned an original Geforce card, so I can't state whether it was too weak for fully directX 7 games, but it would not surprise me if this was the case.

Also, I did read recently (I believe it was on the Inquirer, so take this with a fistfull of salt) that G80 will be DX10 compliant but will still have seperate shader logic for vertex and pixel shaders. IOW, it will be compatable with the API, but in hardware at least that feature will be about the same as current DirectX 9 cards.

To be honest, reading the 2003 presentations and whitepapers I didn't really get a firm sense of what other features they intended to bring to the table. They mentioned wanting to make the GPU more generalized, but didn't really explain how they intend to do that.

 

[KeithTalent]

Wow, you guys sure hate Halo PC. The last console I owned, and the last I will probably ever own, was a Playstation (1st one). I have never played Halo or H2 on the Xbox, so H2 coming to PC is exciting news for me since I still play Halo multiplayer all the time. This is why I was concerned abouit being able to play H2PC on my next vid card.

Anyway, when I build my pc this summer I will probably take the advice here and just get the best card I can afford at the time and not worry about DX10. Besides, there will be so many other difficult decisions for me to make when building, the last thing I need to worry about is technology that will not even be out yet.

Thanks for the information/advice everyone.

Cheers, KT.

 

[apoppin]

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30223">
CeBIT 2006This summer features last train for AGP</a>

the first wave of DX10 mainstream parts . . . is currently scheduled to hit the street during CeBIT of 2007

the first DX10 HW parts - according the theInq - are likely a full year away.

. . . and they will be WAAY to slow to really play the first "full DX10" games in '09.

so . . . again . . . who cares?

 

[A554SS1N]

Do you guys reckon I'm better getting a 7600GT in the next couple of months to last a couple of years rather than getting some cheapo 'pass-the-time' card until 8600GT DX10 card comes out?

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: A554SS1N
Do you guys reckon I'm better getting a 7600GT in the next couple of months to last a couple of years rather than getting some cheapo 'pass-the-time' card until 8600GT DX10 card comes out?

Basically, IMO (and in the opinion of many other people in this thread), it's not worth waiting for DX10 at this point. Buy a good card today, enjoy it, and if it turns out you want/need a new DX10 card in a year or two, buy one then. DX10 hasn't even been finalized, so we're almost certainly not going to see DX10 hardware for the next 6 months. Waiting 6+ months to buy anything if you think you need an upgrade now seems a little silly, especially since six months might go by and DX10 could STILL not be out.

Consider that you can still run *almost* anything with a DX8 card (albeit very slowly in some cases), and DX9 has been available for *years*. Odds are today's hardware is not going to be obsoleted overnight, just as with earlier DirectX upgrades.

 

[RussianSensation]

Although I agree with everyone that it doesnt make sense to wait for DX10 cards (ie. G80 and R600) if you need to upgrade now, it's difficult to deny that those DX10 cards will maximize DX9 features by offering improved dynamic branching, far improved HDR performance and SM3.0 performance will be through the roof. HDR+AA will likely be more than a 1024x768 possibility. Even today, sure DX9.0 looks better compared to DX8 but not that much better as when you compare DX8.1 to DX7. Again since fall will bring high end DX10 cards and probably only 3% of gamers will own them, it'll be unlikely that game develops will suddenly turn to DX10. Majority of games today dont use SM3.0 and when they do it's mostly for performance increases. SM3.0 was available with 6800 series in June of 2004.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Jeffreyg4
Noob question, Why wont the newest cards of today (X1900XTX ext) be able to be software updated to DX10, my Geforce FX5200 (crap card) is running DX 9.0c (or whatever the newest one is called)

All the features that aren't done in hardware and rendered in software = the slow.

 

[Golgatha]

I think the point here is that any game which requires a fully hardware compliant DX10 solution, if released this year, would tank due to lack of users with the minimum hardware. I know I'm not buying Vista and a new video card just to play another game.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation
Although I agree with everyone that it doesnt make sense to wait for DX10 cards (ie. G80 and R600) if you need to upgrade now, it's difficult to deny that those DX10 cards will maximize DX9 features by offering improved dynamic branching, far improved HDR performance and SM3.0 performance will be through the roof. HDR+AA will likely be more than a 1024x768 possibility.

Right, but going by that argument, you should never buy anything, since something faster and/or cheaper will always be available in 6-12 months.

Buy for what you're playing today or in the near future. Speculating on what tomorrow's games are going to need, or what hardware a year or more from now may look like, is VERY VERY hard to do accurately, and you are IMO better off just buying something now if you need something now.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: RussianSensation
Although I agree with everyone that it doesnt make sense to wait for DX10 cards (ie. G80 and R600) if you need to upgrade now, it's difficult to deny that those DX10 cards will maximize DX9 features by offering improved dynamic branching, far improved HDR performance and SM3.0 performance will be through the roof. HDR+AA will likely be more than a 1024x768 possibility.

Right, but going by that argument, you should never buy anything, since something faster and/or cheaper will always be available in 6-12 months.

Personal preference for certain... You may not be alive tomorrow. Make plans for the future, but live in the present... So, personally, if I had the money to buy a nice card i'd buy it, unless I knew for certain that a much better card is due out the next week.

Malak, care to share with us this "game" that you are talking about? Unless I didn't see it anywhere in this thread, I don't believe you have told us what it is. Since no one in this thread knows anything except you, then you may want to englighten us with your special knowledge and intelligence...

 

[BassBiggieD]

soooo, if DX10 is only running on windows vista... and that the new 7900 cards are "made for vista"(at least evga's are) would that be saying that there might be a chance that those cards could run dx10 compatibly without a emulator? i mean think about it

 

[aka1nas]

Originally posted by: BassBiggieD
soooo, if DX10 is only running on windows vista... and that the new 7900 cards are "made for vista"(at least evga's are) would that be saying that there might be a chance that those cards could run dx10 compatibly without a emulator? i mean think about it

No, the 7900 series is not DX10 compliant. By "made for vista: they mean that it will run the Aero glass theme, as all DirectX9c cards can.

 

[BenSkywalker]

1st gen cards on a new version of DX ALWAYS do horribly on the new features introduced.

Actually, the original GeForce was smoking for DX7 titles. Since then I would agree with you. I think the x850XT PE made a very good DX8 level board and I think that the NV50/R600 may turn out to be pretty decent DX9 level parts too. The new features utilized in DX10 aren't nearly as important as what they have done to improve performance on existing features IMO.

 

[BassBiggieD]

oh well.... just a thought that went threw my head...

 

[Ronin]

http://video.msn.com/v/us/req.aspx?r=8&...59%26f%3D06/64%26p%3DNews_Top%2520News

For all of you that thought Vista would make it this year.

This also means that DX10 won't, either.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Right, but going by that argument, you should never buy anything, since something faster and/or cheaper will always be available in 6-12 months.

Buy for what you're playing today or in the near future. Speculating on what tomorrow's games are going to need, or what hardware a year or more from now may look like, is VERY VERY hard to do accurately, and you are IMO better off just buying something now if you need something now.

For sure. If improvement in games is needed now, there is no point in waiting. But DX10 cards wont just bring dx10 features is all I was trying to say. They'll improve DX9 performance across all the areas I've mentioned. So from that point they wont be a waste even if DX10 isnt around.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Right, but going by that argument, you should never buy anything, since something faster and/or cheaper will always be available in 6-12 months.

Buy for what you're playing today or in the near future. Speculating on what tomorrow's games are going to need, or what hardware a year or more from now may look like, is VERY VERY hard to do accurately, and you are IMO better off just buying something now if you need something now.

For sure. If improvement in games is needed now, there is no point in waiting. But DX10 cards wont just bring dx10 features is all I was trying to say. They'll improve DX9 performance across all the areas I've mentioned. So from that point they wont be a waste even if DX10 isnt around.

Yes, but you can always make that argument; if you wait 6-12 months, you'll either get today's cards for a lot less money, or faster cards for the same amount of money. Obviously, the longer you can wait, the better the deal you will get, but if you want to play games it helps to actually own a video card.

The general advice I would give is that you should not factor anything into purchasing decisions that doesn't have a firm release date (and preferably that you have some idea of the performance of). Saying "wait for G80/R600" when they have no release date and only vaguely rumored specs is kind of silly. Today's cards are not going to become worthless in six or twelve months. And you might wait six months and the new cards won't even be out! If they hold out on releasing them until DX10 is finalized and Vista is released, they might not be out until at least next January. That's a pretty long time to potentially wait if you need an upgrade now.