DX10 worth killing EAX!!

[ajaidevsingh]

I did note that there was a odd lack of something in my vista setup with 2900Pro and creative xfi Xgamer... On bioshock this was worst as the game had odd shuttering sound when EAX was enabled and then i found that most creative cards dont support EAX on vista!!

I have gone back to XP not only due to this reason but also due to other problems, what do you all think about this DX10 or EAX fiaso!!



The loss of EAX in Vista is an operating system issue, not a DX10 issue.

I have moved the thread to Operating Systems.

Video Mod BFG10K.

 

[Bateluer]

Its because Microsoft removed the DirectSound layer from DX10. Creative sat on their hands and did nothing for several months after Vista's release, then released some half baked drivers with limited functionality.

When Creative gets around to to it, you'll see a new revision of EAX under a new brand of sound card. Likely several months after Windows 7 ships.

 

[geokilla]

Use Daniel_K's drivers. Those are custom Creative drivers that add back a lot of features and stuff.

 

[Sureshot324]

iirc, EAX does work but only with games that use OpenAL. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[loafbred]

Did you try the "ALchemy" convertor from Creative? It converts DirectSound calls to OpenAL. I'm using it and it works well in the games I've tried it with. Link to file

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Did you run ALchemy? All you have to do is add the game from the list, and EAX works fine. If you don't see the game in the list, add it manually. Its worked flawlessly for me in every game I've played in Vista (Crysis, Call of Juarez, FEAR, Medieval Total War II, etc.).

 

[Buck Armstrong]

And if you're asking if DX10 is worth the extra hassle, then the answer is:

- Yes for Call of Juarez; the DX10 version is absolutely stunning, and makes every other game except maybe Crysis look dated and plain.

- Yes for Crysis, unless you enable Color Grading manually. I've read the reviews, but the fact is I can clearly see a large difference in DX9 with color grading off, and screenshots confirm it.

- No for every other game I've played. DX9 is faster even in Vista, especially in Call of Juarez and Crysis. So while they look much better in DX10, you can actually play them with everything maxed in DX9. My solution was to play Crysis in DX9 with some manual tweaks to simulate Very High, and Call of Juarez in DX10 but with shadow maps and shadow res turned down (because there's just no way to tweak DX9 to look like DX10).

Therefore, I'd say DX9 is probably the more practical choice, until you actually see Call of Juarez in DX10...then you just have to upgrade.

 

[ajaidevsingh]

ar ALchemy did not work with all the games..!! Crysis worked great but other than that i had problems with bioshock "With the patch" and Assassin's Creed...

Assassin's Creed was the worst of them all!!

 

[ajaidevsingh]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
iirc, EAX does work but only with games that use OpenAL. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes ALchemy converts DS to openAL to get EAX, etc..

But ALchemy is half baked in my opinion!!

 

[ajaidevsingh]

Originally posted by: geokilla
Use Daniel_K's drivers. Those are custom Creative drivers that add back a lot of features and stuff.

You know i did try that... but it did not help with the eax problem it just added WaveRT!!

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: ajaidevsingh
I did note that there was a odd lack of something in my vista setup with 2900Pro and creative xfi Xgamer... On bioshock this was worst as the game had odd shuttering sound when EAX was enabled and then i found that most creative cards dont support EAX on vista!!

I have gone back to XP not only due to this reason but also due to other problems, what do you all think about this DX10 or EAX fiaso!!

I don't understand why you would have problems running Bioshock in DX10 with EAX insofar as Bioshock is an OpenAL game.

There is a list of Direct Sound 3D games and instructions on how to run them using Alchemy here. Obviously the OpenAL games don't require Alchemy to run in Vista.

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: ajaidevsingh
ar ALchemy did not work with all the games..!! Crysis worked great but other than that i had problems with bioshock "With the patch" and Assassin's Creed...

Assassin's Creed was the worst of them all!!

Why are you using ALchemy in Crysis? Crysis is not a Direct Sound 3D game. Likewise, I don't believe that Assasin's Creed uses Direct Sound 3D. Both games run very well on my system under Vista. In fact, I'm running Assassin's Creed at an average of 60FPS at max settings plus 16x Multisampling gamma correct AA with no sound problems whatsoever.

 

[Pelu]

ALchemy is like some sort of wapper.. that turns the EAX sound (DirectSound) and turns into OpenAL... if your game is new and use directly OpenAL there is no need for alchemy...

microsoft change the sound structure apparently in favor of the OpenAL... (sounds like OpenGL dont you think) to make a more general sound system... capable of running in xbox and ps...

 

[ajaidevsingh]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Originally posted by: ajaidevsingh
I did note that there was a odd lack of something in my vista setup with 2900Pro and creative xfi Xgamer... On bioshock this was worst as the game had odd shuttering sound when EAX was enabled and then i found that most creative cards dont support EAX on vista!!

I have gone back to XP not only due to this reason but also due to other problems, what do you all think about this DX10 or EAX fiaso!!

I don't understand why you would have problems running Bioshock in DX10 with EAX insofar as Bioshock is an OpenAL game.

There is a list of Direct Sound 3D games and instructions on how to run them using Alchemy here. Obviously the OpenAL games don't require Alchemy to run in Vista.

SOrry i should have elaborated.. Surround in crysis is working as for Bioshock as soon as i enable reb. and EAX the sound starts to shutter.... In fact non of the games "i tried" worked with EAX on Vista. Have to say that i did not install vista on a clean drive but upon xp itself "Boot.ini prob. and i had to save my data"

 

[ViRGE]

Bioshock uses the FMOD sound system, which really wasn't designed for use with EAX or hardware acceleration in the first place. It flubs terribly when it comes to reverb and occlusions no matter what OS you're using it on. This isn't really a EAX thing or a Vista thing then, it's just FMOD misbehaving.

And damn, BFG beat me to the moving.

 

[Redox]

Have to say that i did not install vista on a clean drive but upon xp itself "Boot.ini prob. and i had to save my data"

A clean start with Vista might make the difference. I just put together a new build with a clean install of Vista 32. I'm using an Extreme Gamer Fatality edition with the Alchemy package and so far there have been no games that have not worked properly.

 

[Juddog]

I've had some sound issues with Vista x64 as well, but only with some games and not others. I am also using the creative X-fi. For example Marvel Ultimate Alliance - constantly I get crackling and popping noises, tried to use the creative AL on it but get an error message that it was unable to copy files. Used creative AL on world of warcraft, worked like a charm.

Very weird.

On the creative message boards, they mention that it may be an issue with Vista x64 SP1... apparently the SP1 messed up some EAX effects that were working fine before the patch, but supposedly they are "working on a fix".

I'm half tempted to install an XP partition just to play games on. The only major issues I have with Vista x64 right now are:
* Custom drivers not working (non-WHQL certified, such as Rivatuner)
* Some sounds not working right (crack, hiss, pop sounds in some games only)
* HD video stutter, which has perplexed me to no end. Same exact card and video files play flawlessly in XP SP 2 for me.

I love the visual eye candy of Vista, and I love how it handles multithreading; everything with my system is super smooth now, but those three issues listed above have bothered me to no end. I have literally spent about 30 hrs troubleshooting the issues above and not being able to fix them.

 

[imported_FishTaco]

Originally posted by: Juddog

* Custom drivers not working (non-WHQL certified, such as Rivatuner)

Rivatuner comes with a signed driver for Vista x64. When you install Rivatuner, it'll ask if you want to update, select yes and it'll install the signed Vista x64 driver.

 

[BD2003]

Even though it sucks to lose EAX support in older games, its a dead technology that should be put out to pasture. Todays multi-core CPUs are more than powerful enough to create EAX level reverb in software, without having to worry about hardware support and creative's shitty drivers. Good riddance.

 

[Schadenfroh]

If any of you guys are using Audigy cards on Vista and would like to run your old DirectSound games with EAX on them, Creative is releasing Alchemy for free to Audigy owners now. If any of you bought it before it was nonfree, they are giving refunds out as well.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
If any of you guys are using Audigy cards on Vista and would like to run your old DirectSound games with EAX on them, Creative is releasing Alchemy for free to Audigy owners now. If any of you bought it before it was nonfree, they are giving refunds out as well.

Looks like theyre doing everything they can to keep EAX relevant, but its quite simply too late. Its entirely their own fault too. Once they sued aureal out of existence and bought up sensaura, rather than progressing 3d audio like 3d graphics did, they just kept rehashing the same chipset over and over. Its as if nvidia beat ati into the ground in 2000, and last year we finally saw the release of the geforce 1.

I'm positive that had competition remained in the audio arena, we'd have 100% true to life audio by now, indistinguishable from real life, held back only by your headphones/speakers. At this rate itll take another decade or so in software.

 

[pmv]

Have to say I'm not sure why I bothered buying an XFi card for this system. It was either that or spend the money on a slightly better processor, tend to think I made the wrong choice. And that even with XP, I'm still not convinced I'm getting much benefit from it.

Can anyone explain the reason for MS removing hardware sound support from Vista? I read something that seemed to explain there was a good technical reason for doing so, something to do with removing sound from the Kernel, this being good for stability or something, but I don't understand how whatever OS architectural benefits accrue from removing Direct Sound can be compatible with still allowing OpenAL to do what Direct Sound used to do. Why couldn't MS have implemented Direct Sound in the same way that OpenAL is implemented?

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: pmv
Have to say I'm not sure why I bothered buying an XFi card for this system. It was either that or spend the money on a slightly better processor, tend to think I made the wrong choice. And that even with XP, I'm still not convinced I'm getting much benefit from it.

Can anyone explain the reason for MS removing hardware sound support from Vista? I read something that seemed to explain there was a good technical reason for doing so, something to do with removing sound from the Kernel, this being good for stability or something, but I don't understand how whatever OS architectural benefits accrue from removing Direct Sound can be compatible with still allowing OpenAL to do what Direct Sound used to do. Why couldn't MS have implemented Direct Sound in the same way that OpenAL is implemented?

They removed it for stability reasons, doing everything in software, a very reasonable thing to do since modern CPUs can pull of anything an XFi can do without breaking a sweat. If its all done in software, its compatible across the board no matter the hardware, and its overall better for everyone, whether or not theyre gamers.

Microsoft has nothing to do with OpenAL. Its "openness" is a bit of a joke, as the primary driving force behind it is still creative, and theyre doing their best to use it to keep sound blaster relevant and special. Thats exactly what MS doesnt want to happen, but completely locking out hardware access would have caused an even bigger outcry. But by allowing OpenAL to exist the way it does, they basically shift all the responsibility of it onto creative, and wash their hands clean of it.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Looks like theyre doing everything they can to keep EAX relevant, but its quite simply too late. Its entirely their own fault too. Once they sued aureal out of existence and bought up sensaura, rather than progressing 3d audio like 3d graphics did, they just kept rehashing the same chipset over and over. Its as if nvidia beat ati into the ground in 2000, and last year we finally saw the release of the geforce 1.

That's not a very well thought out statement...if Creative really was trying to keep it relevant they'd have made sure to release Alchemy for free to begin with for their cards, with an option to buy it to use for non creative cards...

I'm positive that had competition remained in the audio arena, we'd have 100% true to life audio by now, indistinguishable from real life, held back only by your headphones/speakers. At this rate itll take another decade or so in software.

I seriously doubt it, that might be true about having graphics rendering match real life in real time, why would audio be any better/faster?

 

[HdwGuy]

I play FPS in Vista X64 no problem I use a Razer sound card. Doing just as well as I was in XP LOL. You just don't need hardware acceleration in my opinion. BTW I will put in a plug for the Razer AC-1 a wonderful sound card.