Yes, because the octane numbers on the pumps are just guesses...
The inspectors just smell the fuel...
I think you should reread his whole post before you assume that. He does a good job of explaining how difficult he thinks measuring octane might be. He obviously doesn't know these exist.
Water and ethanol can create an acid in the combustion chamber. Formic acid. So, valve seat wear and bearing damage is not out of the question.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English...obil/Oil_Best_for_Engines_Using_E85_Fuel.aspx
I'm going to go out on a limb and say water and formic acid will do absolutely nothing to your engine that isn't already happening
Sure, take the risk. It's your engine(s). Just don't force the rest of us to take the chance.
Damn, LTC. You couldn't have made a pair of more intellectually dishonest posts if you tried.
I say that because you've managed to pull out of context an answer to a question and try to paint that answer as a one-size-fits-all condemnation of ethanol. (And personally, I hate ethanol in gas but because it's caused food prices to skyrocket as ethanol producers compete with livestock feed suppliers for the same end product.)
The little horror quote you linked to was about a vehicle rated to only use E10 and what could potentially happen if you ran E85 in it. And the answer in the link is don't do it.
Yeah, I guess if anyone's stupid enough to put E85 into a vehicle only made to tolerate E10, problems could happen. But that's not exactly the way you represented it, is it? Hence, my intellectual dishonesty claim. You know engines rated to run E85 are designed differently than the "normal" engines designed to run on E10.....valves and valve seats for one difference. You honestly think the engineers that design car engines are not aware of ethanol's potential problems if not accounted for in the design phase of development? Really?
CRC research completed last year that found E15 could damage valve and valve seat engine parts in vehicles:
Really?!?Yes, because the octane numbers on the pumps are just guesses...
The inspectors just smell the fuel...
Biff, it sounds like you are routinely getting pulled away from reality and practicality by what might be theoretically possible and drawing erroneous conclusions.
Calling a knock sensor or a flex fuel sensor an octane sensor is not accurate. Each sensor by themselves cannot measure a fuel's octane rating. A flex-fuel sensor still needs a temperature sensor's input and an input as to what else is in the fuel (the conservative petrol estimate Wuzup referenced). A knock sensor's output would still need IAT, MAP, RPM, and probably some empirical data about the engine (or a model of the engine). It might be possible to discern a fuel's octane rating using a combination of these inputs, but that doesn't make any of these sensors an octane sensor.
Yes, a voltmeter can, in a round-about way, be used to measure current and resistance, but not by itself; you still need to know other information in order to use a voltmeter to measure values other than volts. This means that it's still a voltmeter.
You call the above argument(s) "pedantic" (I really think you mean to call it "semantic," no small irony there) but it is VERY important to be precise in our choice of language, especially if you're an engineer.
This is similar to you claiming that ethanol creates oxygen when it's combusted. Ethanol doesn't create oxygen, it simply requires less free oxygen to combust. Like the "octane sensor" argument this can be contorted to look true in a very abstract sense, but it belies the true mechanism(s) or phenomena at work and is quite misleading. This is why your comments are being met with such resistance.
Yeah, we doYou really should find out what pedantic means. You are doing a fine display of it right now.
I love it when people get caught up in little terms, rather than the bigger picture. Makes them look so much more intelligent than everyone else. And no, engineers don't get caught in little word games. :\
Yeah, we do
Get your information and terminology straight, it's important
Sorry, engineers argue larger ideas and concepts and don't get stuck on the little things, like terms. At least, that's every engineer I've known, thank God. Maybe that's why I'm not sorry worried about it too. :hmm:
Really?!?
Because I haven't already brought this up twice before......
Sorry, engineers argue larger ideas and concepts and don't get stuck on the little things, like terms. At least, that's every engineer I've known, thank God. Maybe that's why I'm not sorry worried about it too. :hmm:
Every engineer I know would be laughing right now. Are these like sewage engineers or something? Oh, wait, maybe they are British.
Nah man, sewage engineers always have their shit together.
Seriously Biff, engineers always worry about the details. This is the single biggest reason I doubt your claim that you're a ChemE.
I don't know if there is a real point to this or if things have changed in recent years, but inspectors didn't sample volume and octane from every pump. They took samples at random back to a lab where it would be combusted in a special "knock engine."
Where did I ever say they weren't worried about details? I think I said they normally don't get stuck on minor word games. Sorry if my own experience dictates otherwise. Guess that sucks that I'm not living up to your view of what an engineer is. Oh wells.
I don't know if there is a real point to this or if things have changed in recent years, but inspectors didn't sample volume and octane from every pump. They took samples at random back to a lab where it would be combusted in a special "knock engine."
All I know is that E85 gives my speed3 an extra 30hp and tq, so yeah....Im cool with E85.
Well, while I am a Chemical Engineer, you are entitled to your opinions.
Well, it was a long time ago, and I'm not sure why I posted that. But all I said was that it (valve trouble) "was not out of the question".
I didn't say it was going to wreck an engine instantly, or that it was a "horror".
And, it was in reference to E15, not E10.
That's exactly what the article claims, anyway. E15 can damage valves and valve seats. So how am I wrong for posting additional info? Presumably, if E85 is very bad for valves and valve seats, then E15 is just a little bit bad?
And my point about formic acid was that every air breathing engine and any sulfur impurities will lead to nitric and sulfuric acid in small amounts, each of which are about a billion times more acidic than formic acid. So I'm not sure if formic acid is the culprit in anything, especially based on what some guy says on a mobil forum