EA: Dungeon Keeper Failed by "Innovating Too Much"

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PrincessFrosty

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2008
2,301
68
91
www.frostyhacks.blogspot.com
To call the new Dungeon Keeper a game is really to stretch the meaning of the word game. You open the "game", you click a tile to mine or queue a job, and then you close the game for anywhere between 30 minutes and about 1 week.

That's not a game, in any possible way, when all you have to do is click on one tile and then close the app again, you're not actually engaging with a game to any degree, it's just a way for them to extract and uncapped amount of money from people, it's not that they implemented it badly, or that people aren't ready for it, it's just that it's a completely awful idea to begin with.
 

Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,603
9
81
Anyone ever play Ogame? We had an AT clan on it IIRC. Some of the crap in that took days to build... except it was free... and browser based...
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
It's not that he's being incorrect. Just his version of innovation is getting enough suckers to fork over large amounts of cash in small increments that attempt to mask the true amount you're spending plan didn't work.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
46
91
Nailed it in one. From article:-

"It should be noted that EA can no longer legally market the game as free in Europe, due to its crazy amount of in-app purchases"

"But, but, but... It's because gamers weren't ready for it". LOL. They never learn.



I remember reading the same. To those who say "the problem isn't with EA in particular, it's just F2P" - actually yes - the problem genuinely *is* with EA's endless narcissism & 'attitude'...
It isn't just Ea doing this though, it is every free 2 play mobile game. Maybe ea did it worse in this instance but this isn't strictly an ea issue
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
It isn't just Ea doing this though, it is every free 2 play mobile game. Maybe ea did it worse in this instance but this isn't strictly an ea issue

Yeah it's not just EA, there are hundreds of these types of games for iOS and Android, and I hate every single one of them. They give mobile gaming a very poor image. They all play exactly the same way. Minimal effort from the developers, they're just fishing for whales who will happily fork over cash.
 

Kalmah

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2003
3,692
1
76
ughhhhhhh D:

They already put Dungeon Keepers coffin into the ground, and now they are going to take a shit on top of it and then blame me for not being ready for their so called 'innovation'.

I seriously hate these guys. You can call it bandwagoning or whatever you want. This is legitimate.

If they would have just made a new Dungeon Keeper game properly... People are waiting for a Dwarf Fortress-like game to appear and this is a prime candidate. The sad thing is, if they even did do it properly(as in, being an actual pc game), it would still end up as a polished turd with complete lack of depth. No matter how you frame it, if it says EA anywhere on it then it's too late.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
To call the new Dungeon Keeper a game is really to stretch the meaning of the word game. You open the "game", you click a tile to mine or queue a job, and then you close the game for anywhere between 30 minutes and about 1 week.

That's not a game, in any possible way, when all you have to do is click on one tile and then close the app again, you're not actually engaging with a game to any degree, it's just a way for them to extract and uncapped amount of money from people, it's not that they implemented it badly, or that people aren't ready for it, it's just that it's a completely awful idea to begin with.

That was my reaction to Heroes of Might and Magic Online - I was looking forward to that, then quickly saw it would take hours to build a building if I didn't pay... uninstall.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
At least no one called this when EA started buying some of these mobile developers.
 

DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,760
757
136
Have EA just set a new high benchmark for delusional?

They need a new category for games with In App Purchases and it should be called Payware. Maybe make it so anything over $10 ($5?) in game and it can no longer be marketed as a Free Game but only found in the Payware sections which would require proof of age to enter.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
This whole issue is the typical "don't hate the player, hate the game" scenario. Just about every F2P game is like this. EA is not the one and only. Its not like EA came up with this idea which made everybody flip out.

Everybody knows how F2P games work. There is no reason to hate EA alone over it. What brought about the whole F2P thing was mobile users demanding low prices. You have to sell a LOT of copies of a game to make money when you only get a few cents per copy sold.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
What brought about the whole F2P thing was mobile users demanding low prices. You have to sell a LOT of copies of a game to make money when you only get a few cents per copy sold.

From Wikipedia:

The free-to-play model originated in the late 1990s and early 2000s, coming from a series of highly successful MMOs targeted towards children and casual gamers, including Furcadia, Neopets, RuneScape,[9][10] MapleStory, and text-based dungeons such as Achaea, Dreams of Divine Lands.[11] Known for producing innovative titles, small independent developers also continue to release free-to-play games. The Internet has been cited[weasel words] as a primary influence on the increased usage of the free-to-play model, particularly among larger video game companies, and critics point to the ever-increasing need for free content that is available wherever and whenever as causes.

Particularly early on, free-to-play games caught on fastest in South Korea and Russia, where they took over 90% of the gaming market.[citation needed] There are free-to-play, pay-to-connect games where there is no charge for playing, but often the free servers are congested.[citation needed] Access to uncongested servers is reserved for fee-paying members. Free-to-play games are particularly prevalent in countries such as South Korea and the People's Republic of China.[6][12] Microtransaction-based free-to-play mobile games and browser games such as Puzzle & Dragons, Kantai Collection and The Idolmaster: Cinderella Girls also have large player populations in Japan.[13] In particular, the Nikkei Shimbun reported that Cinderella Girls earns over 1 billion yen in revenue monthly from microtransactions.[14] Electronic Arts first adopted the free-to-play concept in one of its games when it released FIFA Online in Korea.[8]

In the late 2000s, many MMOs transitioned to the free-to-play model from subscriptions,[15] including subscription-based games such as The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Dungeons & Dragons Online,[16] Champions Online and Heroes of Newerth.[6] This move from a subscription based model to a free-to-play one has proven very beneficial in some cases. Turbine as of September 10, 2010 has given an F2P with Cash shop option to The Lord of the Rings Online which resulted in a tripling of profit.[17] Sony Online Entertainment's move to transition EverQuest from a subscription model into a hybrid F2P/subscription game was followed by a 125% spike in item sales, a 150% up-tick in unique log-ins, and over three times as many account registrations.[18]

The movement of free-to-play MMOs into the mainstream also coincided with experimentation with other genres as well. The model was picked up by larger developers and more diverse genres, with games such as Battlefield Heroes,[8] Free Realms, Quake Live and Team Fortress 2[7] appearing in the late 2000s. The experimentation was not successful in every genre, however. Traditional real time strategy franchises such as Age of Empires and Command & Conquer both attempted free-to-play titles. Age of Empires Online was shut down in the midst of a tiny player base and stagnant revenue,[19] and Command & Conquer: Generals 2 was shut down in alpha due to negative reactions from players.[20]

In 2011, revenue from free-to-play games overtook revenue from premium games in the top 100 games in Apple's App Store.[21] The number of people that spend money on in-game items in these games ranges from 0.5% to 6%, depending on a game's quality and mechanics. Even though this means that a large number of people will never spend money in a game, it also means that the people that do spend money could amount to a sizeable number due to the fact that the game was given away for free.[21]

As of 2012, free-to-play MOBAs, such as League of Legends, and Dota 2 have become among the most popular PC games.[22] The success in the genre has helped convince many video game publishers to copy the free-to-play MOBA model.[23][24]
 

Reaper_Tech

Member
Jul 10, 2014
35
0
0
EA they have a few good franchises but their ignorance and delusion keeps them spiralling around the edge of the drain in terms of me buying anything from them. I am just thankful they don't have Metal Gear as a franchise. Its sad to think that i am more thankful for the games EA doesn't get their hands on more and more with each passing year.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
3
81
This whole issue is the typical "don't hate the player, hate the game" scenario. Just about every F2P game is like this. EA is not the one and only. Its not like EA came up with this idea which made everybody flip out.

Everybody knows how F2P games work. There is no reason to hate EA alone over it. What brought about the whole F2P thing was mobile users demanding low prices. You have to sell a LOT of copies of a game to make money when you only get a few cents per copy sold.

Have you tried playing a F2P facebook or mobile game? Have you bothered to watch about 3 seconds of video of DK? In terms of timers, it's about 50-1000 time worse (not exaggerating) than what most F2P games are. You could replace every instance of the word "Innovating" with "prison raping" and EA's statement would make much more sense.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
"But, but, but... It's because gamers weren't ready for it". LOL. They never learn.



I remember reading the same. To those who say "the problem isn't with EA in particular, it's just F2P" - actually yes - the problem genuinely *is* with EA's endless narcissism & 'attitude'...

"Dungeon Keeper suffered from a few things," Gibeau told Games Industry. "I think we might have innovated too much or tried some different things that people just weren't ready for... I don't think we did a particularly good job marketing it or talking to fans about their expectations for what Dungeon Keeper was going to be or ultimately should be."

Here is what should scare the holy bejeezus out of you, this quote is EA telling us that the new Dungeon Keeper is how they plan to make games, they just moved too fast. Now they intend to move a little slower and acclimate gamers to the idea that if they want to play a game they need to pay for each click.

How can people argue that EA is not evil, when they flat out tell us their evil plot.
 

Kalmah

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2003
3,692
1
76
Here is what should scare the holy bejeezus out of you, this quote is EA telling us that the new Dungeon Keeper is how they plan to make games, they just moved too fast. Now they intend to move a little slower and acclimate gamers to the idea that if they want to play a game they need to pay for each click.

How can people argue that EA is not evil, when they flat out tell us their evil plot.

I was thinking that as well. We might just have to let the gaming industry swallow itself alive and re-emerge through kickstarters and other similar avenues. (meaning all current IP such a Dungeon keeper will no longer exist) Unless of course there are too many that become indoctrinated and don't know any better. I'm guessing that it's the current generation of young gamers that are fueling the payments on these so called 'free' games right now. Or maybe it's the boomers settling into retirement with nothing better to do other than throw money at candy crush.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
For all the concerns about EA, we have to note they've done quite well at the business. A lot of studios we like have gone under.

Since we want good studios to keep making games, there's probably something to learn from EA.

Some of the lessons might not help though, like if we just learn bad things about consumers' willingness to spend on cash cows like sports franchises.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
For all the concerns about EA, we have to note they've done quite well at the business.

From the perspective of a shareholder, sure they've done well. From the perspective of a gamer with no financial ties to EA? They are evil incarnate.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
Here is what should scare the holy bejeezus out of you, this quote is EA telling us that the new Dungeon Keeper is how they plan to make games, they just moved too fast. Now they intend to move a little slower and acclimate gamers to the idea that if they want to play a game they need to pay for each click.

How can people argue that EA is not evil, when they flat out tell us their evil plot.

This is exactly what I've been saying for a couple years now. And more than once I've been laughed at. Now, you have EA telling you, publicly, to your face, exactly how they plan to make games in the future. Will people finally take notice? Probably not.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
fixed that...

thats complete crap at the end though...

games are 60 dollars. rockstar sold a billion dollars worth of game when they released a COMPLETED PRODUCT THAT WAS A QUALITY PRODUCT.

some publishers care about what customers think of them some just think of us as glorified atm's with eyes... or pinatas full of cash that they can beat repeatedly and get more money.

i think you can find where the f2p group fits.
There's some great imagery, thanks!

I remember reading some news about how EA tried to game the review system. Basically they added a 'low score trap' in their in-game rating button. Instead of directly sending you to Android review screen to enter your score, it pops a nice window that says "Are you going to score this …" two buttons: "1-4" and "5". If you click "1-4" it opens a window where you put a score and it's sent as an email to EA (but no score is recorded), while only '5' opens the real review screen, so if you want to score it 2, you have to click on '5' and then when the real review screen comes, score it 2. That says it all about EA right there.
Holy crap. If one accepts that running reviews is a form of advertising, then that's pure fraud and should be actionable.

To call the new Dungeon Keeper a game is really to stretch the meaning of the word game. You open the "game", you click a tile to mine or queue a job, and then you close the game for anywhere between 30 minutes and about 1 week.

That's not a game, in any possible way, when all you have to do is click on one tile and then close the app again, you're not actually engaging with a game to any degree, it's just a way for them to extract and uncapped amount of money from people, it's not that they implemented it badly, or that people aren't ready for it, it's just that it's a completely awful idea to begin with.
It's like an IQ test that one fails by playing.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
4,089
665
126
Eh, lot of hyperbole in this. The problem is that this is not really a dungeon keeper game, it is a pretty standard base building game with a DK theme. The DK legacy doesn't help it, just makes you want the old game.



Truthfully it is not a terrible game, about on par with all the other base builders.
 

v8envy

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2002
2,720
0
0
Penny Arcade also had one about Real Racing 3 and paying real money for gas (or even more real money for a tow truck if you run out of gas).

That was an ambitious cash grab obvious to all, yet many a white whale bellied up to pay OVER $1000. I kid you not, people on the RR3 forums admitted to paying enough money to buy a car in real life to beat tablet car racing game. A fairly boring and flawed yet pretty tablet racing game.

And that's who EA was targeting with this as well. People willing to spend thousands to play a game on a tablet.
 

Puppies04

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2011
5,909
17
76
This FTP bollocks needs to stop, unfortunately it won't, too many kids out there with mommy or daddies CC linked to their google account.

I would love to ask EA "So if you didn't go FTP on this how much would you have charged for the title"

Pretty much any answer they give would make them look like the jackasses that they truly are. The really sad thing is this isn't the first game with this kind or crazy high in game purchase and it certainly won't be the last.

The only answer I can come up with that the publishers and gamers might both agree on is to force them to offer every game either for free with in game purchases or as a one time cost where everything is unlocked, but that won't happen.
 

maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
14
81
This FTP bollocks needs to stop, unfortunately it won't, too many kids out there with mommy or daddies CC linked to their google account.

I would love to ask EA "So if you didn't go FTP on this how much would you have charged for the title"

Pretty much any answer they give would make them look like the jackasses that they truly are. The really sad thing is this isn't the first game with this kind or crazy high in game purchase and it certainly won't be the last.

The only answer I can come up with that the publishers and gamers might both agree on is to force them to offer every game either for free with in game purchases or as a one time cost where everything is unlocked, but that won't happen.

Whatever it does to single player games or small-player-count multiplayer, F2P is really going to hurt the MMO genre. It could be years before anyone besides SOE tackles the task of making a true MMOFPS due to player unwillingness to pay subscriptions, and the pay2win nature of f2p shooters. It will be interesting to see what happens with EQN being purpose-built as free2play and not a conversion like EQ and EQ2.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
There will be another gaming crash soon. Just watched the new documentary on the 80's game crash, and it really looks like companies are repeating the same mistakes. They are trying to appeal to a "wider" audience, but that audience aren't the gamers that will actually continue to be interested, while at the same time alienating the people who actually will continue to make purchases by offering low quality and draconian agendas to maximize profits.
 
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