"Early humans blamed for mass extinctions"

[bluemax]

But you make a point as well.... we'd have to stop polluting AND consuming resources COMPLETELY for that to happen. We don't want the extinguishing on the human species to be the trigger for Earth's natural cleansing, right?

You know perfectly well we're polluting this place FAR faster than nature can clean. If we continue at this rate, human life could be in severe jeopardy WITHIN your lifetime.
Mark my words.

Now I'm not an extremist, I know we need to consume resources.... I just wish we did so effectively, and cleaned up after ourselves afterwards. The problem is that we're driven by the consumer-based economy that keeps our contries running. If we don't buy a whole lotta' junk and throw it away quickly to buy MORE junk, the economy dies. So the garbage as well as the pollution from creating this "consumer junk" just keeps building up at faster and faster rates. People don't clean them up because it costs money to do so, and again, the economy demands profit. (And so does the Fat Cat C.E.O.) Clean energy is also far into the future because the Oil Barons WANT you to use petroleum. And lots of it! And we definately are... just look at the colour of the sky during rush hour.

Profit is the only thing most people care about... While we might not ever see Earth become Geidi Prime, it certainly won't be the garden paradise is was only a couple hundred years ago. And there WILL be a point where food will become a very serious issue. Even in places like Canada and the US.

 

[Amused]

<< There are other ways of destroying our enviroment than with nuclear bombs. >>



Yes, there are. But none of the polution we output at our present rate today are anywhere close to leaving the earth as a whole a virtual wasteland.

I'm just pointing out base exaggerations.

 

[bluemax]

<< Polution is something that has a negative impact on the environment. Our trash dumps are buried, would be completely unnoticable, and have virtually no impact on the environment. >>


Please, PLEASE don't tell me that you think that once you bury something it's no longer a problem! :Q:Q:Q
You think burying a bunch of toxic &quot;Pampers&quot; in a big hole and covering it with some dirt makes it magically go away?? Toxins from garbage as well as insudtrial and sewage wastes sink into the water table, and continue to affect anything that needs to drink - read: everything alive.
Tell me nuclear waste will go away just because it's underground. (Well, there is the rule of sevens, that radiation does decay; but if it has a halflife of 12,000 years you have radioactive waste for a long, long time.) :|

Please tell me you meant something else..... I beg of you. :Q

 

[Amused]

<< You know perfectly well we're polluting this place FAR faster than nature can clean. If we continue at this rate, human life could be in severe jeopardy WITHIN your lifetime.
Mark my words. >>



Sorry, but I cannot buy this. It's completely ludicrous. Human kinds existence is nowhere NEAR at jeapardy due to pollution.



<< Now I'm not an extremist, >>



Every extremist says this.



<< I know we need to consume resources.... I just wish we did so effectively, and cleaned up after ourselves afterwards. The problem is that we're driven by the consumer-based economy that keeps our contries running. If we don't buy a whole lotta' junk and throw it away quickly to buy MORE junk, the economy dies. So the garbage as well as the pollution from creating this &quot;consumer junk&quot; just keeps building up at faster and faster rates. People don't clean them up because it costs money to do so, and again, the economy demands profit. (And so does the Fat Cat C.E.O.) Clean energy is also far into the future because the Oil Barons WANT you to use petroleum. And lots of it! And we definately are... just look at the colour of the sky during rush hour. >>



Effective and viable &quot;clean&quot; energy --besides nuclear-- just has not been found yet. There's no conspiracy here, as the first person to discover or invent a viable and effective way to produce clean energy would be instantly wealthy. The incentive is there and more than a few people are working on it... the ability just has not been found yet.



<< Profit is the only thing most people care about... While we might not ever see Earth become Geidi Prime, it certainly won't be the garden paradise is was only a couple hundred years ago. And there WILL be a point where food will become a very serious issue. Even in places like Canada and the US. >>



I can't buy this either. It's simply knee-jerk reactionism based on fear. We possess the ability to produce many times the amount of food we produce today. No one is going to go hungry for the lack of producing ability for a LONG time. EVERY TIME I see claims such as this, I ask for proof. In most, if not all cases I'm given dubious &quot;studies&quot; based far more on conjecture and twisted numbers.

I've lived long enough to see chicken littles come and go. In the sixties and seventies, we were told we were headed into a global ice age due to man's polluting. Now it's global warming. Oil was supposed to run out in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s... and every time the deadline passes, they simply move it up 20 years or so.

When Earthday first started back in 70, we were told that the earth would be a vast wasteland of pollution by the turn of the century if we continued on our present course. Guess what? That deadline has been moved up too.

The sky is NOT falling, the earth is NOT dying, and we're doing JUST fine.

A person can only be lied to so many times before he starts calling BS on every activist that crosses his path.

Yet every new generation that comes along reads the claims of these activists, and believes them without question.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< Polution is something that has a negative impact on the environment. Our trash dumps are buried, would be completely unnoticable, and have virtually no impact on the environment. >>


Please, PLEASE don't tell me that you think that once you bury something it's no longer a problem! :Q:Q:Q
You think burying a bunch of toxic &quot;Pampers&quot; in a big hole and covering it with some dirt makes it magically go away?? Toxins from garbage as well as insudtrial and sewage wastes sink into the water table, and continue to affect anything that needs to drink - read: everything alive.
Tell me nuclear waste will go away just because it's underground. (Well, there is the rule of sevens, that radiation does decay; but if it has a halflife of 12,000 years you have radioactive waste for a long, long time.) :|

Please tell me you meant something else..... I beg of you. :Q >>



Beg all you want. I have yet to see an animal sink a well. Toxins in the water table affect HUMANS, because we pull water directly from the water table. The earth is a wonderful filter. In fact, that drink of water you had today has been pissed and sh!t out by millions of animals, insects, fish, and humans before it got to you. ALL water has been, at one time, toxic waste water. The earth cleaned up that without a problem.

Nuclear waste will do the same thing it did before it was dug up and used. It's funny how nuclear waste is baaaaad, but the FAR more dangerous naturally occuring nuclear material emitting radon gas in our homes is okie dokie.

 

[shifrbv]

I think there are solutions to some of today's problems, but industry has a big hand in bringing those solutions to light. The plastics industry is a big offender. Take styrofoam containers and plastic coverings for meat products. Why do these need to be made out of petroleum products which take forever to break down? Natural and fully-recyclable alternatives have been invented and are available. Industry just doesn't want to incorporate them because they might raise the price a few cents. How about the styrofoam packing materials that for years were made from petroleum ingredients until someone decided to make them out of starch, a natural ingredient formed as a byproduct of processed corn. And even though this product is all natural and available right now as a substitute, plastic styrofoam which doesn't break down for many years, is still being used for everything

Alternatives to plastic are available but for some reason, industry has decided to take a stand and use petroleum-based products rather than raise prices by a few cents. As a consumer, I would feel much better knowing that I was buying diapers made from a non-petroleum-based, recyclable resource rather than filling up landfill after landfill with toxic wastes for my kids to deal with in the future.

With as many kids that are being born in the US each year, you would think their parents would think about these things and act responsibly. Instead, they just think &quot;out of sight, out of mind&quot; and go about their merry way. How stupid of them.

 

[GasX]

<< If we continue at this rate, human life could be in severe jeopardy WITHIN your lifetime.
Mark my words.

Now I'm not an extremist, >>



Ummm, yes you are. Just because there is someone crazier than you shouting more loudly than you, it doesn't mean you are a moderate.

Barring Nuclear War - which has little to do with pollution per se, the chance of the Human Race being threatened in our lifetime by anything other than epidemic are basically zero. If an epidemic does it, then that is nature exerting its ability to mix things up at will. Pollution may make New Jersey smell, but it is not going to fvck up the planet for the everyone for a LONG time.

We'll all be driving electric Hondas then anyway.

 

[RossGr]

<< No wonder people get careless about their environment if you grow up in such a world of senseless waste of energy and a hatred against everything which is not 'conquered' and tamed by Humans (read: Americans). >>



Sometimes the truth hurts.

On thing many Americans do not consider, as they fight tooth and nail to preserve there selfish wasteful ways, is that most of the worlds population goes to bed hungary. As time passes there are more and more people with less and less to lose. The more people there are with nothing to lose the more precarious our world becomes. What effect would the distruction of our civilization have on the starving in Africa or the peasants of China? Most of these people live a live style little changed from that of their grandparents. It is mainly the &quot;1st world&quot; countries that garner the benifits of our technology. Meanwhile, Americans, and you Euorpoeans are not far behind, continue to squander resources and live in a fanatsy world that they can continue this way forever.

We MUST make it a high priority to find a clean, cheap source of energy which can be shared with ALL the worlds population. We MUST learn to contain and control our wastes, the worlds rivers, lakes, oceans and our atmosphere can only adsorb so much of our garabage with out suffering. If the evironment suffers WE WILL suffer, anyone who denys this is foolish to say the least.

Do not think for a minute that we can contine to survive without a healty ecosystem.

 

[RossGr]

<< Hmmm, we found the nuclear material in the ground. Right? When we were finshed with it, we put it right back, in a place FAR less likely to be harmful than where we found it. >>



There is a BIG trouble with this thought. We collect TONS of ore with very low concentrations of radioactive materials, process, purify and concentrate to a few pounds of highly radioactive and very toxic material. It is not MUCH more hazardous then when it was dispersed. The only way to truly render this material harmless would be to launch it into the sun. Of course all we would need is a Challenger like accident with a rocket full of radioactive waste.

Pollution can be controlled. As a child growing up in southren Oregon my town (Roseburg) was one of the major lumber centers of the region, there were numerous saw mills, each of them had was was called a Wigwam burner. They had convayer systems rigged to carry the mills wastes, ie saw dust and bark into the top of this huge cone with a screened dome top. Inside there was a tremendous fire burning the flames, sparks and smoke from these fire belching monsters were visible for miles. Well in the 60's some crazy environmentalists forced laws which outlawed the practice. At the time the mills were crying that they would never be able to stay in business without them. Well shortly after they shut down the Wigwams bark mulch lots began to open up around town and trucks began runing carrying sawdust to the papermills. Now these &quot;waste&quot; materials, sawdust and bark mulch are vital parts of the business.

The point is sometimes creating polution is simply the tradition, the easy way. We need inovative thinking and better processes with the goal of mimimizing the effect our industries have on our invironment.

 

[GasX]

I think a few people need to start reading PJ O'Rourke and realize the truth.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< Hmmm, we found the nuclear material in the ground. Right? When we were finshed with it, we put it right back, in a place FAR less likely to be harmful than where we found it. >>



There is a BIG trouble with this thought. We collect TONS of ore with very low concentrations of radioactive materials, process, purify and concentrate to a few pounds of highly radioactive and very toxic material. It is not MUCH more hazardous then when it was dispersed. The only way to truly render this material harmless would be to launch it into the sun. Of course all we would need is a Challenger like accident with a rocket full of radioactive waste.

Pollution can be controlled. As a child growing up in southren Oregon my town (Roseburg) was one of the major lumber centers of the region, there were numerous saw mills, each of them had was was called a Wigwam burner. They had convayer systems rigged to carry the mills wastes, ie saw dust and bark into the top of this huge cone with a screened dome top. Inside there was a tremendous fire burning the flames, sparks and smoke from these fire belching monsters were visible for miles. Well in the 60's some crazy environmentalists forced laws which outlawed the practice. At the time the mills were crying that they would never be able to stay in business without them. Well shortly after they shut down the Wigwams bark mulch lots began to open up around town and trucks began runing carrying sawdust to the papermills. Now these &quot;waste&quot; materials, sawdust and bark mulch are vital parts of the business.

The point is sometimes creating polution is simply the tradition, the easy way. We need inovative thinking and better processes with the goal of mimimizing the effect our industries have on our invironment. >>



Hey, I agree with most of what you say here. The key is storing the nuclear waste until we find a good use for it. Yucca Mountain is good for 10,000 years of leak proof storage (after 10,000 years, emissions from the site are said to be no higher than naturally occurring background and ground radiation).. By then, I'm sure we'll have figured out how to either reuse the stuff, or store it better.

Face it, guys. One of the major producers of carbon monoxide in this country are power plants. Switching to nuclear power would go a long way towards cutting emissions.

 

[b0mbrman]

See? This is why we should all be running around clubbing baby seals...the niche of humans has ALWAYS been to screw the environment up

 

[AHawk]

<< If we continue at this rate, human life could be in severe jeopardy WITHIN your lifetime. >>



Yep, we're not producing greenhouse gases nearly quickly enough to overcome the coming Ice Age that you and the Chicken Little crowd were telling us was coming, until you came up with this latest line of bullsh!t called global warming.

Next time, try giving critical thought and common sense a try first rather than just believing wholesale the latest Malthus inspired guilt trip by the elitist environmentalist movement.

 

[SuperSix]

EXACTLY the way I feel.

I'll continue to recycle, I won't dump my used oil in the side yard, and I'll teach my son to l;ove the environment and animals, but I will live as well. We are but a blip on the radar of the universe, and there's not enough time to think too much about it.

Bravo, Miken, I salute you and your ideals.

SS




<< The Earth is ours. We do what we want, we cannot be controlled. We should not be controlled. The Earth is ours. We eat what we want, we live where we want, we kill what we want. The Earth is ours.

The universe will go on when we die.

I will only live around 70 years.

I'm going to live the way I want.

I don't care about anything except my family, which will go on.

I am not ignorant of the plights of the environment, but I will not be inconvienced by it.

The Earth will heal itself. If it doesn't we will die. We will die anyway. Stop worrying. Death is as natural as birth. Do not have so much fear. >>

 

[SuperSix]

<<

<< No wonder people get careless about their environment if you grow up in such a world of senseless waste of energy and a hatred against everything which is not 'conquered' and tamed by Humans (read: Americans). >>



Sometimes the truth hurts.

On thing many Americans do not consider, as they fight tooth and nail to preserve there selfish wasteful ways, is that most of the worlds population goes to bed hungary. >>



I don't give two sh!ts about the rest of the world, I have my hands full dealing with life here.

We have some of if not the most stringent environmental regulations than any other industrialized nation. WHile I agree there will always be some violator, the MAJORITY of major indutries in the USA conform to a MUCH higher environmental standard than the rest of the word. Proportionately, the USA contributes very LITTLE to global waste, pollution output and general negative environmental impact.

The majority of Europe's rivers are nearly dead, and everyone has something to say about the &quot;selfish&quot; Americans. CLASSIC case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[TripleJ]

Good thread Elledan. There are some absolute losers in here, selfish pricks.

Americans, stop trying to pretend that we shouldn't be worried and you don't waste a lot of resources. My country of Australia is just as bad. I think we use more water per head of population in the world, yet we are the dryest continent on the planet. The mighty Murray River and the legendary Snowy River is suffering for it. In the end, we will be the ones paying for it. If we don't spend big bucks on it the agricultural productivity will go down the gurgler.

Due to vast amounts of clearing the watertable in vast areas of agricultural land is rising, bringing salinity with it. If many billions of dollars aren't spent in countering the problem, it will be lost forever. We are talking about millions of hectares and billions of dollars a year in lost produce and revenue. I have seen land already affected by salinity. I was travelling along a road and on either side were lakes of water from the rising watertable. The dead trees stood in the lake like ghosts, grey, bare and sureal. And this is just the tip of the ice berg.

 

[miken]

So you think we're selfish pricks eh?

So what do you want us to do? Fly to Australia? Fix your Billybong?

We're selfish for living our lives and following the rules, but because we think different and aren't as extreme as you, that makes us selfish? Oh, sure.

I'd sure like to add the environment to my list of worry's, I haven't had a kidney stone or other stress's lately.

 

[bluemax]

For all the people making me out to be some kind of extremist, I'm not. I believe in moderation. What repulses me is the &quot;I couldn't give a rat's @ss about the environment&quot; attitude so many in here are portraying. :|
Anyone who thinks they can rape this world on a continual basis and it will show no effects is only lying to themselves. Those thousand-year-old Pampers in the landfill, or nuclear waste in the bottom of the ocean don't just disappear because they are out of sight. You may think the USA and other developed nations have tough laws on pollution regulation but they're not NEARLY tough enough. Especially since those laws are broken on a regular basis. It's a lot cheaper to send an excursion to northern Canada or desert in Nevada to find a nice dumping spot for toxic gunk, than it is to develop a safe way to destroy the toxins.

I'm proud of the company in my home town of Calgary in Canada, who developed a super-furnace to destroy PCB's instead of just dumping them. Very few companies have any interest in such developments because it's much cheaper to dump, and occasionally bribe an official to &quot;look the other way&quot;.

My view of moderation is far less extreme than the radical acts of these materialistic, impulsive, greedy pigs that are responsible for wanton destruction.

No, the earth is not scarred beyond repair, yes it will still sustain life - BUT NOT INDEFINATELY! If we don't maintain the balance with other forms of life, our OWN life will be in danger. People see themselves at the top of the food chain, but forget that without the ENTIRE chain, they wouldn't have anything left to eat. If one predator is destroyed, a prey animal could breed too rapidly, that prey could then destroy another vital link such as plantlife, without the plantlife the soil loses fertility or even just blows away, the area becomes toxic/arid/barren/desert and useless for human consumption.

Surely you can agree at least to THIS much?

 

[Piano Man]

Wow, I can't believe people can be so apathetic about the earth. Then there are those that only think they have responsability for their children, but not thier children's children and so on? Truly, truly sad. The epitomy of selfishness

 

[TripleJ]

<<So you think we're selfish pricks eh?

So what do you want us to do? Fly to Australia? Fix your Billybong?

We're selfish for living our lives and following the rules, but because we think different and aren't as extreme as you, that makes us selfish? Oh, sure.

I'd sure like to add the environment to my list of worry's, I haven't had a kidney stone or other stress's lately.>>


Hehe, you just keep proving yourself the most selfish, narrow-minded, pathetic individual ever to stumble through these forums. One sad specimen. You don't even try to help or make a difference. How hard can it be to help out a little?

 

[gnoymyguy]

i]<We have some of if not the most stringent environmental regulations than any other industrialized nation. WHile I agree there will always be some violator, the MAJORITY of major indutries in the USA conform to a MUCH higher environmental standard than the rest of the word. Proportionately, the USA contributes very LITTLE to global waste, pollution output and general negative environmental impact>[/i]

That's funny, hehe. So the US and certain European nations didn't pay other countries so they could dump their waste in somebody else's backyard right?

So the US didn't pay/trade with other countries to increase their own quota of maximum pollution allowed? Nice to see that attempts to put a cap on pollution produced is being fully used up, that if say Switzerland only meets 50% of it's maximum pollution allowed, there is a kind nation ready to buy up the remaining 50% so technically they do not infringe on the agreement. NICE ONE

 

[Phunktion]

&quot;Early humans blamed for mass extinctions&quot;

Justice will prevail, something will eventually evolve that will eat us humans like popcorn.. I mean think about it.. 6 billion people is one hell of a food supply

 

[Aihyah]

hehe, yea i read this in time too.. gets you thinking techinically these amercans were the ancestors of the american indians. theres this stereotype that american indians are in tune with nature and always have haha this sticks a big crapper into that image. I can understand it though.. living in primitive conditions i'd love to have a mamoth steak. one of those suckers could probably feed a village for a couple days atleast. those big creatures musta been yummy

i'm just so sad that i'll never get a chance to see or eat a mamoth or giant sloths/bears curse u american indians!!!