Econ Professor Blasts Marines

Dissipate

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Jan 17, 2004
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Why Be Proud of Government Work?

by Christopher Westley

[July 8, 2004]

Recently, when walking home from work, I was passed by one of those red monster pick-up trucks with an oversized bumper sticker on the back window that announced: FORMER MARINE.

It made me wonder why it is that Marines are the only federal employees who feel the urge to proclaim that they once were paid with taxpayer loot. You never see Volkswagens buzzing around town with a sign that says FORMER POSTAL WORKER, or Lexuses chugging down the street with a sticker proclaiming FORMER FEDERAL FISHERIES STAFF ACCOUNTANT.

So, what's with the Marines? Like any other federal employee, they live off of other people's money (acquired via conscription), they operate on a socialist model, they specialize in bullying people, and they are always faithful (semper fi!) to the government bureaucracy, whether or not that bureaucracy is acting in accord with the Constitution (or natural law).

In other words, they are different from federal housing clerks in degree but not in substance.

Normally, I?d sympathize with such individuals. Despite the pay and benefits, no one said that working for the military was easy (although it often is). This is especially true for the troops sweating it out on the streets of Baghdad, many of whom signed up for National Guard service believing that two weekends a month and two weeks a year meant just that. They are, nevertheless, simply another variety of federal workers bearing grenades and guns instead of paper clips and White Out.

Both sets of workers freely chose to pledge their lives in exchange for a share of the stolen goods locked away in the Treasury for the most economic of reasons: that course of action benefited them more than the next best alternative. But while one worker finds himself in the air-conditioned bowels of the Department of Waste building somewhere near the Potomac, the other crosses himself every time he gets on the Baghdad Beltway. It doesn?t seem fair.

But it is predictable. Whether bureaucracies comprise the welfare or warfare states, they must spend their budgets this year in order to justify bigger ones next year. This insight was not accepted into the mainstream of economic thought until the development of the Public Choice school in the 1960s, but long before that, the Austrian school considered the economic analysis of bureaucracies as fair game. For instance, when Mises analyzed bureaucracies in Human Action in 1949, he merely emphasized the main points he raised in his classic 1944 book Bureaucracy.

As recently as 1995, Rothbard noted that

Bureaucracy is necessarily hierarchical . . . because [it] grows by adding more subordinate layers. Since, lacking a market, there is no genuine test of "merit" in government?s service to consumers, in a rule-bound bureaucracy seniority is often blithely adopted as a proxy for merit. Increasing seniority, then, leads to promotion to higher ranks, while expanding budgets take the form of multiplying the levels of ranks under you, and expanding your income and power. Bureaucratic growth occurs, then, by multiplying levels of bureaucracy.

Such layers continue to fester unless constrained by a strict constitution (which is rare) or other institutional constraints (such as a gold standard). The result is hardly congruent with a peaceful and orderly society. A bureaucracy's very existence is based on involuntary trade, implying the introduction of some violence, whether in the form of tax system enforcement or of bullets fired by those federal employees stationed out on the fringes of the American Empire.

The festering explains the general resentment toward government. One can sense it in the total disgust felt toward the two major parties' presidential candidates. One can measure it in the size of record budget deficits and projected inflation. One can see it in the popularity of a recently-released documentary that questions the moral legitimacy of the warfare state and its sycophants. After a certain point, the waste is obvious.

When that happens, shame is the proper reaction on the part of those who helped cause it by participating in a system based on transferred?as opposed to created?wealth. After all, you don?t see the same kind of pride of work on the part of U.S. Department of Agriculture price fixers that you do among Wal-Mart employees. Why is that?

The answer is because a life devoted to fidelity to Leviathan in a government bureaucracy is neither a badge of honor nor the mark of a meaningful life, and most every former federal employee knows it?except, perhaps, the former leathernecks who cruise by during my walk home from work.

People who devote their lives to private enterprise, on the other hand, might be told that they are greedy and selfish but they know in their hearts that they have been serving others within a framework of voluntary exchange all their lives.


Why be proud of government work?

UPDATE: Federal Employee from Iraq sends a letter of praise to the prof!

Chris Westley gets a letter from Kirkuk, Iraq, about his article:

That was a great article on government employees, but perhaps I can add something that may help you understand why Marines (and other elite military) put those stickers on their vehicles.

I'm a former Marine currently in the Army in Special Ops and there are a number of reasons why guys do that stuff, none of them really good.

1) Ignorance and pride. These guys honestly believe that everybody else is impressed and in the case of the truly ignorant, they sometimes are. At Fort Bragg they have their entire 201 (personnel) file displayed on their rear windows, no guessing where they've been or what they've done. The truly ignorant who rattle off phrases to me when in uniform such as "Thank you for fighting for my freedom" as they vote themselves new tyrants to rule them.

2) Brainwashed. Every military branch pumps its members up with the "you are the BEST" phraseology and the Marines can take some sense of satisfaction in their performance, albeit the unquestioning obedience to all orders thing was part of my reason for leaving.

3) Fraternal. Former Marines instantly identify with one another, much the same way as guys in a fraternity would. I have a small tie tac that I wear for this reason (I also have a cross that I wear for the same reason). It instantly identifies me to other former Marines and as we are a small organization, it gives us a chance to touch bases - more often than not I will speak to somebody that knew somebody else that is a good friend.

4) Defensive intimidation. Some guys post these stickers to intimidate other people and if you live in an insane city with belligerent drivers, this is often the case. I drive a tiny little economy pickup truck and have bumper stickers on it for precisely that reason. I drive slowly and courteously and this enrages the psychotic who often drive big red monster trucks to compensate for their lack of courage, compassion, or empathy. I have found that since applying these stickers to my truck, I no longer have enraged/psyshotic drivers attempting to run me over, run me off the road, or following me to my destination to challenge me in the parking lot. I used to put up stickers indicating my firearms preferences but with the hysteria regarding firearms ownership in our formerly free society, these only invited the wrong kind of attention from other government employees.

As to your comments on government employees (including myself) being sponges who are working off of stolen taxpayer money, I have to agree with you completely. This old warhorse is hanging up his shoes when he gets back. Since 1976, as both active and reservist, I have YET to fight in or serve in any operation that was defending the Constitution of the United States and I don't think with our new neo-con empire builders we will do anything but attack other sovereign nations. I'm going back to what I know and do best, being self employed; an honest day's work for an honest day's wages and maybe something left over after our elected tyrant-masters in Washington get done raping and pillaging my wages.

All I can do now in my position of leadership and influence with the younger soldiers is keep them from shooting or abusing innocent civilians here in Iraq, encourage them to get out while the getting is good, and encourage others to not join at all. All that having a large standing army has done in my opinion is to allow tyrants to attack other nations, meddle in foreign affairs, and feel they have a weapon to control their own people with should they defy their un-Constitutional decrees.

Thanks for a great article!

Westley Hears From a Federal Worker in Iraq
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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This man clearly has no idea what he is talking about.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: MadCowDisease
Your title is somewhat misleading.


So, what's with the Marines? Like any other federal employee, they live off of other people's money (acquired via conscription), they operate on a socialist model, they specialize in bullying people, and they are always faithful (semper fi!) to the government bureaucracy, whether or not that bureaucracy is acting in accord with the Constitution (or natural law).
You would consider these positive comments? I can almost see the sneer on his pudgy bespectaled face I think his fattened psychopathic wife beats him within inches of his life every night...
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
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I dunno... I think the whole bullets-flying-at-your-head-risking-your-life-to-serve-your-country thing makes them a bit more than "federal employees"....

-Max
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
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Stupid economists.

Maybe we should buy and sell soldiers and their sacrifices in an open market at competitive prices.

What an idiot.
 

Kipper

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2000
7,366
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: MadCowDisease
Your title is somewhat misleading.


So, what's with the Marines? Like any other federal employee, they live off of other people's money (acquired via conscription), they operate on a socialist model, they specialize in bullying people, and they are always faithful (semper fi!) to the government bureaucracy, whether or not that bureaucracy is acting in accord with the Constitution (or natural law).
You would consider these positive comments? I can almost see the sneer on his pudgy bespectaled face I think his fattened psychopathic wife beats him within inches of his life every night...

Depends how you read it. I read it as an analysis of individuals stuck in bureaucratic systems tied down in paperwork and middle management, illustrating how Marines are in such a situation. You read it as an attack on Marines.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Stupid economists.

Maybe we should buy and sell soldiers and their sacrifices in an open market at competitive prices.

What an idiot.

Stupid Partisan Economists...by nature of their trade, an economist shouldn't be partisan. Of course, he's a college professor which supersedes his trade
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
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hmm... actually this really is the correct 'milton friedman' argument on the military and all other public service. There's no partisanship required for a retarded economist to make a statement like this... But it certainly is absurd; he needs to take his nose out of a book long enough to understand the concept of dying.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Depends how you read it. I read it as an analysis of individuals stuck in bureaucratic systems tied down in paperwork and middle management, illustrating how Marines are in such a situation. You read it as an attack on Marines.
How many ways could you read "they specialize in bullying people"? Actually, they specialize in killing people, specifically the enemy.

I wonder what said professor thinks about the tenure system of state and federally supported universities? lol.
 

Kipper

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2000
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Depends how you read it. I read it as an analysis of individuals stuck in bureaucratic systems tied down in paperwork and middle management, illustrating how Marines are in such a situation. You read it as an attack on Marines.
How many ways could you read "they specialize in bullying people"? Actually, they specialize in killing people, specifically the enemy.

I wonder what said professor thinks about the tenure system of state and federally supported universities? lol.

Sheesh. I mean the ARTICLE in general, not one clause. :roll:
 

Rogue

Banned
Jan 28, 2000
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This guy obviously sits in a glass house and throws stones. He works for, in my opinion, one of the most currently corrupted money making institutions in the United States right now. Professors are writing their own books, getting them published and then forcing students to purchase them! Somehow that just doesn't smell of free market economy to me. More like forced financial gain on people who spend decades to pay off the debt obtained from attending the very types of universities this guy preaches from. He's likely the type that goes before his class and espouses his personal views and rhetoric, all the while reaping the huge salary I'm certain he's pulling down from the state and the school who are using excuses like, "Tax cuts, funding shortages, etc." for increasing tuition while simultaneously purchasing plasma displays to replace wall mounted televisions that have worked fine for years or decades. I don't know about you, but I am sick and tired of the hypocricy spewed forth by most professors at universities today. Being knowledgeable does not make one smart.
 

Kipper

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2000
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Originally posted by: Rogue
This guy obviously sits in a glass house and throws stones. He works for, in my opinion, one of the most currently corrupted money making institutions in the United States right now. Professors are writing their own books, getting them published and then forcing students to purchase them! Somehow that just doesn't smell of free market economy to me. More like forced financial gain on people who spend decades to pay off the debt obtained from attending the very types of universities this guy preaches from. He's likely the type that goes before his class and espouses his personal views and rhetoric, all the while reaping the huge salary I'm certain he's pulling down from the state and the school who are using excuses like, "Tax cuts, funding shortages, etc." for increasing tuition while simultaneously purchasing plasma displays to replace wall mounted televisions that have worked fine for years or decades. I don't know about you, but I am sick and tired of the hypocricy spewed forth by most professors at universities today. Being knowledgeable does not make one smart.

You haven't really elaborated on the hypocrisy of professors...also, it's estimated that undergraduate tuition & fees at JSU are: $3,345.00 for in-state, including room & board, $ 4,040.00 for out-of-state not including room and board. I don't really see anybody paying off $12-14,000 dollars' worth of education for 'decades.':roll: State universities are tremendously cheap for in-state students. My tuition is nearly 30,000 for out of state a year: in-staters pay around $13,000. Also, many professors assign their own work but in my experience this has been restricted to a.) full professors, which usually have something good to say or have a right to, and b.) highly specialized classes for which there are very few textbooks available. The bulk of professors who I've taken classes with and assigned their own material fall into these categories or have outnumbered it with dozens of other handouts, books, etc. Also note that professors don't make all that much from each book they publish - the publisher/bookstore pockets the majority of it.

Also, with respect to technology purchases many times these purchases are funded not only by state money already allocated to such purchases (at my school computers are upgraded every three years, regardless), and some purchases may be funded by private money. It's not as simple as moving money from one area to another. Keep in mind also that universities are trying to market themselves to the best students - it's somewhat like bidding for highly-desirable employees - you're trying to attract students, not drive them away with 1980's-style libraries and old technology. Every bit counts.
 

Lazy8s

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2004
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mmm the only part I agree with i where he says they signed up for "2 weeks per year, one week per month" but got otherwise. I have a LOT of friends who signed up for the armed services before Sept. 11th and thought it was going to be an easy job and chicks would like the uniform. Others did it simply to pay for college. While I do support and respect our troops I always think twice when I see these bumper stickers for many reasons. First because many military people signed up planning on never seeing combat. Secondly a lot of guys I work with who served full-time in the military who NEVER saw combat are now breaking out all of their military stuff and stickers and putting it on their business cards like they are some sort of hero too. Also my g/f's cousin in an F15 flight instructor and everyone in his hometown is treating him like a hero even though he still works a 9-5 and takes all of his vacation every year. He'll never see a day of combat in his career.

I'm not saying that the guys who fight for us aren't heroes or anything like that but I DO think that there are a good portion of the military that will never reach that status of a hero and treating everyone who has ever served as a hero whether they fought or not really takes away from the actual heroes that we do have. Just my opinion though, I don't want to step on any toes here.
 

Kipper

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2000
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Originally posted by: Lazy8s
mmm the only part I agree with i where he says they signed up for "2 weeks per year, one week per month" but got otherwise. I have a LOT of friends who signed up for the armed services before Sept. 11th and thought it was going to be an easy job and chicks would like the uniform. Others did it simply to pay for college. While I do support and respect our troops I always think twice when I see these bumper stickers for many reasons. First because many military people signed up planning on never seeing combat. Secondly a lot of guys I work with who served full-time in the military who NEVER saw combat are now breaking out all of their military stuff and stickers and putting it on their business cards like they are some sort of hero too. Also my g/f's cousin in an F15 flight instructor and everyone in his hometown is treating him like a hero even though he still works a 9-5 and takes all of his vacation every year. He'll never see a day of combat in his career.

I'm not saying that the guys who fight for us aren't heroes or anything like that but I DO think that there are a good portion of the military that will never reach that status of a hero and treating everyone who has ever served as a hero whether they fought or not really takes away from the actual heroes that we do have. Just my opinion though, I don't want to step on any toes here.

Two words: Jessica Lynch.

Edit: Jessica Lynch is not a hero.
 

Dissipate

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Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Lazy8s
Just my opinion though, I don't want to step on any toes here.

Sorry to say, but you have just stepped on my toes. How does seeing combat suddenly make you a hero? What you are fighting for makes all the difference in the world, because under your definition a good portion of the German army in WWII were heroes.
 

Lazy8s

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: Rogue
This guy obviously sits in a glass house and throws stones. He works for, in my opinion, one of the most currently corrupted money making institutions in the United States right now. Professors are writing their own books, getting them published and then forcing students to purchase them! Somehow that just doesn't smell of free market economy to me. More like forced financial gain on people who spend decades to pay off the debt obtained from attending the very types of universities this guy preaches from. He's likely the type that goes before his class and espouses his personal views and rhetoric, all the while reaping the huge salary I'm certain he's pulling down from the state and the school who are using excuses like, "Tax cuts, funding shortages, etc." for increasing tuition while simultaneously purchasing plasma displays to replace wall mounted televisions that have worked fine for years or decades. I don't know about you, but I am sick and tired of the hypocricy spewed forth by most professors at universities today. Being knowledgeable does not make one smart.

Do you go to school? You sound like a middle-aged person disgruntled over taxes more than someone who has been to school in the last decade. Being in college myself I can tell you that state professors are on a national average paid the same as highschool teachers. Now, private school professors are paid a ton, the tuition for private school is high, and they do make you purchase their books just to make profits but who said you had to go? Public schools are a VERY cheap alternative. One of the things I look foreward to most is my teacher's personal view about their subject. Not only does it make the class more interresting but it also makes me think for myself. Any college student who deserves to be there can distinguish a prof's opinion from the facts. And if they can't, like I said they don't deserve to be in college anyways. As far as purchasing plasma televisions my opinion has 2 parts.
1) Most schools do not waste money on useless crap. They are having a hard enough time getting funing from the state they don't have that kind of money.
2) Computers and technology that has "done fine for the past 10 years" doesn't cut it. I'm not paying to be trained how to use technology thats 10 years old, what good does that do me in the work place? The problem with colleges is they can't buy all new stuff every year so that the kids can get the most up-to-date education possible.
 

Kipper

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2000
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Lazy8s
Just my opinion though, I don't want to step on any toes here.

Sorry to say, but you have just stepped on my toes. How does seeing combat suddenly make you a hero? What you are fighting for makes all the difference in the world, because under your definition a good portion of the German army in WWII were heroes.

Vietnam and Korea were bloodbaths and dozens of atrocities were committed by US troops there. That still doesn't stop us from remembering them, perhaps as 'heroes'. Unless I'm incorrect by honoring troops what you are doing is honoring the motivation which drives them to do what they do, and that in itself is universal regardless of what cause you are behind. In that way I suppose every soldier is some sort of 'hero.'
 

Lazy8s

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: MadCowDisease
Originally posted by: Lazy8s
mmm the only part I agree with i where he says they signed up for "2 weeks per year, one week per month" but got otherwise. I have a LOT of friends who signed up for the armed services before Sept. 11th and thought it was going to be an easy job and chicks would like the uniform. Others did it simply to pay for college. While I do support and respect our troops I always think twice when I see these bumper stickers for many reasons. First because many military people signed up planning on never seeing combat. Secondly a lot of guys I work with who served full-time in the military who NEVER saw combat are now breaking out all of their military stuff and stickers and putting it on their business cards like they are some sort of hero too. Also my g/f's cousin in an F15 flight instructor and everyone in his hometown is treating him like a hero even though he still works a 9-5 and takes all of his vacation every year. He'll never see a day of combat in his career.

I'm not saying that the guys who fight for us aren't heroes or anything like that but I DO think that there are a good portion of the military that will never reach that status of a hero and treating everyone who has ever served as a hero whether they fought or not really takes away from the actual heroes that we do have. Just my opinion though, I don't want to step on any toes here.

Two words: Jessica Lynch.

I hate to sound heartless but that was a very unfortunate isolated incident. That is hardly a commonality in war. Jessica suffered a very brutal capture but it you watch the evening news that happens in america to non-combatants every day. Like here:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/07/09/foster.parents.abuse.ap/index.html

How many people do you think live in those conditions every day. We have tens of thousands (at least) of troops and that kind of thing happens to one of them. That doesn't mean war is evil.


Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Lazy8s
Just my opinion though, I don't want to step on any toes here.

Sorry to say, but you have just stepped on my toes. How does seeing combat suddenly make you a hero? What you are fighting for makes all the difference in the world, because under your definition a good portion of the German army in WWII were heroes.


I never said every person who saw combat was a hero. I just said that the people in the military who never saw combat aren't heroes and that glorifying them does nothing but undermine who the real heroes are.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Lazy8s
Originally posted by: MadCowDisease
Originally posted by: Lazy8s
mmm the only part I agree with i where he says they signed up for "2 weeks per year, one week per month" but got otherwise. I have a LOT of friends who signed up for the armed services before Sept. 11th and thought it was going to be an easy job and chicks would like the uniform. Others did it simply to pay for college. While I do support and respect our troops I always think twice when I see these bumper stickers for many reasons. First because many military people signed up planning on never seeing combat. Secondly a lot of guys I work with who served full-time in the military who NEVER saw combat are now breaking out all of their military stuff and stickers and putting it on their business cards like they are some sort of hero too. Also my g/f's cousin in an F15 flight instructor and everyone in his hometown is treating him like a hero even though he still works a 9-5 and takes all of his vacation every year. He'll never see a day of combat in his career.

I'm not saying that the guys who fight for us aren't heroes or anything like that but I DO think that there are a good portion of the military that will never reach that status of a hero and treating everyone who has ever served as a hero whether they fought or not really takes away from the actual heroes that we do have. Just my opinion though, I don't want to step on any toes here.

Two words: Jessica Lynch.

I hate to sound heartless but that was a very unfortunate isolated incident. That is hardly a commonality in war. Jessica suffered a very brutal capture but it you watch the evening news that happens in america to non-combatants every day. Like here:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/07/09/foster.parents.abuse.ap/index.html

How many people do you think live in those conditions every day. We have tens of thousands (at least) of troops and that kind of thing happens to one of them. That doesn't mean war is evil.


Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Lazy8s
Just my opinion though, I don't want to step on any toes here.

Sorry to say, but you have just stepped on my toes. How does seeing combat suddenly make you a hero? What you are fighting for makes all the difference in the world, because under your definition a good portion of the German army in WWII were heroes.


I never said every person who saw combat was a hero. I just said that the people in the military who never saw combat aren't heroes and that glorifying them does nothing but undermine who the real heroes are.

I'd like to quote the guy who sent in the letter from Iraq:

This old warhorse is hanging up his shoes when he gets back. Since 1976, as both active and reservist, I have YET to fight in or serve in any operation that was defending the Constitution of the United States and I don't think with our new neo-con empire builders we will do anything but attack other sovereign nations.

Once again we are back to the cause being fought for, which I believe is in serious question at this point in time. Therefore, even those who see combat in Iraq aren't heroes.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Therefore, even those who see combat in Iraq aren't heroes.
I assume you feel the same about Vietnam and Korean veterans too, right?

Yep. I believe they were pawns in political agendas of politicians, for this I feel sorry for them. But, heroes they are not.

The most recent war in which a true cause was being fought for was WWII, but that was over 50 years ago.
 

Lazy8s

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: alchemize
Therefore, even those who see combat in Iraq aren't heroes.
I assume you feel the same about Vietnam and Korean veterans too, right?

Yep. I believe they were pawns in political agendas of politicians, for this I feel sorry for them. But, heroes they are not.

The most recent war in which a true cause was being fought for was WWII, but that was over 50 years ago.

I think there are many people who fought in all of the wars who saved lives and selflessly made life better for others. In my book that's a hero. My heroes may not be faster than a speeding bullet or leap tall building in single bounds and save the world as your seem to need to do but they sure as heck risk their life for no personal gain.
 

Zephyr106

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
1,309
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So we have confirmation that elitist marines are more more valuable than inferior socialist college professor pansies? Lets just burn all those textbooks.

Zephyr
 
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