Economy:1-1-09 Microsoft planning big layoffs for January?

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I don't see how the SEC can stop a bigger crash than 1929

7-15-2008 SEC issues emergency rules

The emergency rule applies to 19 financial firms:

BNP Paribas Securities Corp (BNPQF.PK) (BNPQY.PK)

* Bank of America Corp (BAC.N)

* Barclays PLC (BCS.N)

* Citigroup Inc (C.N)

* Credit Suisse Group (CS.N)

* Daiwa Securities Group Inc (DSECY.PK)

* Deutsche Bank Group AG (DB.N)

* Allianz SE (AZ.N)

* Goldman Sachs Group Inc (GS.N)

* Royal Bank ADS (RBS.N)

* HSBC Holdings Plc ADS (HBC.N)

* JPMorgan Chase & Co (JPM.N)

* Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc (LEH.N)

* Merrill Lynch & Co Inc (MER.N)

* Mizuho Financial Group Inc (MFG.N)

* Morgan Stanley (MS.N)

* UBS AG (UBS.N)

* Freddie Mac (FRE.N)

* Fannie Mae (FNM.N)

They are doing nothing but enforcing a rule that was in place for a very long time.

 

[BansheeX]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Okay OP and Techs.. we're in a recession, now how would you two bozo's fix it?

Please don't try, that's the problem and that's why it's gotten so large. You know what a recession is? It's when the market needs to correct, when one sector was overvalued and needs its labor and capital purged and reallocated to shortages in other sectors. That hurts, that causes temporary unemployment spikes. And there's no way to avoid that, and if you try, you delay it and make the bubble market bigger for a bigger fall (like we did in 2000). It's analogous to being high on drugs - you have to go with withdrawal, and it hurts, but if you keep shooting up to avoid it, you'll get something even worse.

The problem is, people don't want to accept that pain and will scream at their politicians to "fix" it. What's even worse is that politicians naturally want to try and fix it, because they don't want a recessionary environment to give their opposition the ammunition they need to beat them and take their power away. Doesn't matter if it was or wasn't their fault, because people are too dumb to want anything more than a "shakeup" because they're unable to identify the policies that are causing it. You know... this party isn't working, try the other, that one isn't working, go back to the other.. etc.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: BansheeX

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Okay OP and Techs.. we're in a recession, now how would you two bozo's fix it?

Please don't try, that's the problem and that's why it's gotten so large. You know what a recession is? It's when the market needs to correct, when one sector was overvalued and needs its labor and capital purged and reallocated to shortages in other sectors. That hurts, that causes temporary unemployment spikes. And there's no way to avoid that, and if you try, you delay it and make the bubble market bigger for a bigger fall (like we did in 2000). It's analogous to being high on drugs - you have to go with withdrawal, and it hurts, but if you keep shooting up to avoid it, you'll get something even worse.

The problem is, people don't want to accept that pain and will scream at their politicians to "fix" it. What's even worse is that politicians naturally want to try and fix it, because they don't want a recessionary environment to give their incumbent the ammunition they need to beat them and take their power away. Doesn't matter if it was or wasn't their fault, because people are too dumb to want anything more than a "shakeup." You know... this party isn't working, try the other, that one isn't working, go back to the other.. etc. Rinse and repeat.

Poor central bank planning played a part in the Great Depression, they were in their infancy and didn't know quite what they were doing. Yet without central planning we don't have the greatest 20 year period of domestic and international growth in human history in the late 20th century, and we certainly don't have the lowest inflation in human history during that same time period. If you seriously believe that the superior alternative to central economic planning would be to let banks/institutions fail without exception, you just don't deserve the time of day. Central economic planning is a worldwide phenomenon that has gone fantastically well, better than any other period in human history, since becoming a reality in the 20th century. To rewrite history by stating nonsense like history has "proven" central planning inadequate is something you couldn't defend quantitatively if your life depended on it. Frankly, no 2-bit laymen masquerading as a economic professional is going to change that with cries for "free market" magic. Adam Smith himself wouldn't advocate such lunacy.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: BansheeX

The problem is, people don't want to accept that pain and will scream at their politicians to "fix" it.

Yeah. The very same politicians they want out of their bedroom, school, church, and wallet. Its a convenience thing

 

[dmcowen674]

I admit I catch flack for constantly berating both Corporations and the Politicians they own while not saying that at least some of the blame lies on some of the population in general as well.

There is always bad apples on a tree.

So here (From NPR News) is a perfect example of what is wrong with some of the American apples on the tree.

I'm not saying the majority of the American population is a bad apple, it is not nearly more of the citizenry fault as it is the Corporations and the Government but there are problems:


7-20-2008For Some Ohioans, Even Meat Is Out Of Reach

All Things Considered, July 17, 2008 · A generation ago, the livelihood of Gloria Nunez's family was built on cars.

Her father worked at General Motors for 45 years before retiring. Her mother taught driver's education. Nunez and her six siblings grew up middle class.

Things have changed considerably for this Ohio family.

Nunez's van broke down last fall. Now, her 19-year-old daughter has no reliable transportation out of their subsidized housing complex in Fostoria, 40 miles south of Toledo, to look for a job.

Nunez and most of her siblings and their spouses are unemployed and rely on government assistance and food stamps. Some have part-time jobs, but working is made more difficult with no car or public transportation.

'I Just Can't Get A Job'

Nunez, 40, has never worked and has no high school degree. She says a car accident 17 years ago left her depressed and disabled, incapable of getting a job. Instead, she and her daughter, Angelica Hernandez, survive on a $637 Social Security check and $102 in food stamps.

People tell Nunez her daughter could get more money in public assistance if she had a child.

"A lot of people have told me, 'Why don't your daughter have a kid?'"

The only one with a car is Irma Hernandez, Nunez's mother. Hernandez says that with a teenage son still at home, the cost of feeding him and sending him to school is rising, and she can no longer pay for the car.

She's now two car payments behind.

"I'm about to lose my car," she says on her way to pick up one of her daughters to take her to Toledo. "So then what's going to happen to us?"

So Nunez and her daughter are mostly stuck at home.

The rising cost of food means their money gets them about a third fewer bags of groceries ? $100 used to buy about 12 bags of groceries, but now it's more like seven or eight. So they cut back on expensive items like meat, and they don't buy extras like ice cream anymore. Instead, they eat a lot of starches like potatoes and noodles.


-------------------------------------------------------
Low-income families in Ohio say they are particularly hard-hit by the changes in the economy, according to a new poll conducted by NPR, The Kaiser Family Foundation and Harvard School of Public Health. Two-thirds of lower-income respondents, or 66 percent, say paying for gas is a serious problem because of recent changes in the economy. Nearly half of low-income Ohioans, or 47 percent, say that getting a well-paying job or a raise in pay is also major problem.

 

[Engineer]

There is a large thread about the above story on OT. I don't have much (any) sympathy for the above people.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Engineer
There is a large thread about the above story on OT.

I don't have much (any) sympathy for the above people.

Yes, that is where I saw it but I did not comment in there since my comments would be political in nature.

I try and not post politcal comments in OT as that used to be frowned upon

Honestly I am confused on what is happening over in that forum area.

I of course have no sympathy for that family either.

They are a leach on society and they know it, take advantage of it and obviously looking for even more of a handout. "Oh what will happen to us"?

As a country we all have to decide what will happen to people like them.

They are broken just as much as the system is broken.

Both must be addressed towards a common good goal for them as well as country.

I am going to take the liberty of modifying the late Kennedy's speech who had it right and add to it;

"Ask not what my country can do for me but what I can do for my country as well as myself".

That goes for both individuals as well as Corporations and our elected Government.

 

[Perknose]

I heard that story on NPR and I feel the same damn way. That family was comfortable on public assistance and now they're not. Boo hoo.

 

[neodyn55]

Link to said OT thread?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: neodyn55
Link to said OT thread?

Click me!

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Even a blind squirrel can occassionally find a nut, Dave.

And you were only off by 6 years. No doubt economists will soon be knocking down your door looking for advice.

and SOMEDAY we'll have $5 gas too. Then we'll see the "I TOLD YOU SO!" thread :laugh:

It's been there and done that;

Fuel Tops $5.00 per Gallon in California

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Even a blind squirrel can occassionally find a nut, Dave.

And you were only off by 6 years. No doubt economists will soon be knocking down your door looking for advice.

and SOMEDAY we'll have $5 gas too. Then we'll see the "I TOLD YOU SO!" thread :laugh:

Go ahead and say it;

Fuel Tops $5.00 per Gallon in California

Well, it's $8.55 per gallon in a village in Alaska too!

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Even a blind squirrel can occassionally find a nut, Dave.

And you were only off by 6 years. No doubt economists will soon be knocking down your door looking for advice.

and SOMEDAY we'll have $5 gas too. Then we'll see the "I TOLD YOU SO!" thread :laugh:

Go ahead and say it;

Fuel Tops $5.00 per Gallon in California

Well, it's $8.55 per gallon in a village in Alaska too!

Or back here in reality land - it's dropped ~20 cents in the past couple weeks. "down" to 3.79.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Even a blind squirrel can occassionally find a nut, Dave.

And you were only off by 6 years. No doubt economists will soon be knocking down your door looking for advice.

and SOMEDAY we'll have $5 gas too. Then we'll see the "I TOLD YOU SO!" thread :laugh:

Go ahead and say it;

Fuel Tops $5.00 per Gallon in California

Well, it's $8.55 per gallon in a village in Alaska too!

Or back here in reality land - it's dropped ~20 cents in the past couple weeks. "down" to 3.79.

I know that. I filled up in northern Kentucky yesterday for $3.88. But of course, it's still not "cheap"...it's all relative. The point I was making is that gas is more expensive elsewhere at this time.

 

[GoPackGo]

I bet there is still money for Liquor, Cigarettes and cable TV.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
I bet there is still money for Liquor, Cigarettes and cable TV.

Certain essentials are required.


And where is the children's father in this story?


What is the cost of sending the teenage son to school?
Clothes - already needed for the boy
Books - provided by the school
Food - needed no matter if in school or not - may be cheaper to bring a lunch than a school lunch.
School Functions - many schools will waive charges based on need.
Transportation - either walk or use school provided if distance is to far. I suspect that the kid is taking the public bus rather than walking - possibly may not be able to walk based onthe pics of the family.

Not to slur, but is sounds like what is portrayed as a typical welfare family.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Even a blind squirrel can occassionally find a nut, Dave.

And you were only off by 6 years. No doubt economists will soon be knocking down your door looking for advice.

and SOMEDAY we'll have $5 gas too. Then we'll see the "I TOLD YOU SO!" thread :laugh:

It's been there and done that;

Fuel Tops $5.00 per Gallon in California

I know better than that.

It would have to be "the national average" before you guys would allow me to post "I told you so".

It has a good chance by October if some rigs in the gulf go down due to a storm, that's all the excuse they need to jack up prices even though there would still be no shortage of oil.

 

[dmcowen674]

How may ATers are affected by this?

8=3=2008 Rich begin feeling the pain in down economy

For most Americans, the choice has been whether to give up small indulgences, such as eating out or going to the movies, to help defray the rising cost of food and fuel.

For the wealthy, the choices have been different.

"People are examining, 'Do you keep the yacht, do you go to the classic car auction, do you take the private jet?'" said Joseph Montgomery, managing director of investments at Wachovia Securities.

The 10 percent of households with the highest incomes account for nearly a quarter of all spending, according to data compiled by research firm Moody's Economy.com from a 2006 federal survey.

They are investing more conservatively, spending less on luxury goods and are being more thrifty with their credit cards. Many are asking their personal shoppers and private-jet travel providers to seek the best deals rather than over-the-top extravagances.

That news may produce a shrug from many people who have lost their jobs or homes in this economy. The problem is that when the wealthy get stingy, it trickles down to the rest of us.

 

[Slew Foot]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
How may ATers are affected by this?

8=3=2008 Rich begin feeling the pain in down economy

For most Americans, the choice has been whether to give up small indulgences, such as eating out or going to the movies, to help defray the rising cost of food and fuel.

For the wealthy, the choices have been different.

"People are examining, 'Do you keep the yacht, do you go to the classic car auction, do you take the private jet?'" said Joseph Montgomery, managing director of investments at Wachovia Securities.

The 10 percent of households with the highest incomes account for nearly a quarter of all spending, according to data compiled by research firm Moody's Economy.com from a 2006 federal survey.

They are investing more conservatively, spending less on luxury goods and are being more thrifty with their credit cards. Many are asking their personal shoppers and private-jet travel providers to seek the best deals rather than over-the-top extravagances.

That news may produce a shrug from many people who have lost their jobs or homes in this economy. The problem is that when the wealthy get stingy, it trickles down to the rest of us.

That would imply that trickle down economics works and that big tax cuts to rich people would help stimulate the economy.

I know Ive had to hire an illegal immigrant to do my chauffering and I axed the Dom Perignon in my jet to simply 3 buck chuck. Times are tough, my white tigers now only get USDA choice instead of Kobe steaks.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
How may ATers are affected by this?

8=3=2008 Rich begin feeling the pain in down economy

For most Americans, the choice has been whether to give up small indulgences, such as eating out or going to the movies, to help defray the rising cost of food and fuel.

For the wealthy, the choices have been different.

"People are examining, 'Do you keep the yacht, do you go to the classic car auction, do you take the private jet?'" said Joseph Montgomery, managing director of investments at Wachovia Securities.

The 10 percent of households with the highest incomes account for nearly a quarter of all spending, according to data compiled by research firm Moody's Economy.com from a 2006 federal survey.

They are investing more conservatively, spending less on luxury goods and are being more thrifty with their credit cards. Many are asking their personal shoppers and private-jet travel providers to seek the best deals rather than over-the-top extravagances.

That news may produce a shrug from many people who have lost their jobs or homes in this economy. The problem is that when the wealthy get stingy, it trickles down to the rest of us.

A little. MrsSkoorb said flatly and summarily NO to my garage expansion, which means that I can have no more than five cars ready to go at any one time and the '09 Gallardo I picked up recently as a daily driver is probably going to have to sit on the driveway. I will probably have Manuel cover it when it's parked, but if it's raining we have the old Manuel-carries-my-umbrella-while-I-walk thing and I still get the occasional drop on me

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
How may ATers are affected by this?

8=3=2008 Rich begin feeling the pain in down economy

For most Americans, the choice has been whether to give up small indulgences, such as eating out or going to the movies, to help defray the rising cost of food and fuel.

For the wealthy, the choices have been different.

"People are examining, 'Do you keep the yacht, do you go to the classic car auction, do you take the private jet?'" said Joseph Montgomery, managing director of investments at Wachovia Securities.

The 10 percent of households with the highest incomes account for nearly a quarter of all spending, according to data compiled by research firm Moody's Economy.com from a 2006 federal survey.

They are investing more conservatively, spending less on luxury goods and are being more thrifty with their credit cards. Many are asking their personal shoppers and private-jet travel providers to seek the best deals rather than over-the-top extravagances.

That news may produce a shrug from many people who have lost their jobs or homes in this economy. The problem is that when the wealthy get stingy, it trickles down to the rest of us.

The top 10% of income earners are "rich" or "wealthy" now? Hmm. When I argued recently about this I was told that was not the case and that even the top 1% truly aren't rich. Amazing how those terms are such moving targets.

Anyway, my wife and I are in that top 10%, as are probably a good number of P&N posters. Are we cutting back? Sure. We let the maid go last Friday. But we are tightening our belts for reinvestment purposes, even though we have been increasing our incomes lately. It's a hedge strategy against what may or may not come in the future. Better safe than sorry.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
A little. MrsSkoorb said flatly and summarily NO to my garage expansion, which means that I can have no more than five cars ready to go at any one time and the '09 Gallardo I picked up recently as a daily driver is probably going to have to sit on the driveway. I will probably have Manuel cover it when it's parked, but if it's raining we have the old Manuel-carries-my-umbrella-while-I-walk thing and I still get the occasional drop on me

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Anyway, my wife and I are in that top 10%, as are probably a good number of P&N posters. Are we cutting back? Sure. We let the maid go last Friday. But we are tightening our belts for reinvestment purposes, even though we have been increasing our incomes lately. It's a hedge strategy against what may or may not come in the future. Better safe than sorry.

Well thanks for coming out in the open.

What makes you guys finally admit to being rich while denying it for so many years?

What is different this time?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Skoorb
A little. MrsSkoorb said flatly and summarily NO to my garage expansion, which means that I can have no more than five cars ready to go at any one time and the '09 Gallardo I picked up recently as a daily driver is probably going to have to sit on the driveway. I will probably have Manuel cover it when it's parked, but if it's raining we have the old Manuel-carries-my-umbrella-while-I-walk thing and I still get the occasional drop on me

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Anyway, my wife and I are in that top 10%, as are probably a good number of P&N posters. Are we cutting back? Sure. We let the maid go last Friday. But we are tightening our belts for reinvestment purposes, even though we have been increasing our incomes lately. It's a hedge strategy against what may or may not come in the future. Better safe than sorry.

Well thanks for coming out in the open.

What makes you guys finally admit to being rich while denying it for so many years?

What is different this time?

Why do you despise people who know how to make money, Dave? Is it because it's a skill that generally eludes you?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Skoorb
A little. MrsSkoorb said flatly and summarily NO to my garage expansion, which means that I can have no more than five cars ready to go at any one time and the '09 Gallardo I picked up recently as a daily driver is probably going to have to sit on the driveway. I will probably have Manuel cover it when it's parked, but if it's raining we have the old Manuel-carries-my-umbrella-while-I-walk thing and I still get the occasional drop on me

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Anyway, my wife and I are in that top 10%, as are probably a good number of P&N posters. Are we cutting back? Sure. We let the maid go last Friday. But we are tightening our belts for reinvestment purposes, even though we have been increasing our incomes lately. It's a hedge strategy against what may or may not come in the future. Better safe than sorry.

Well thanks for coming out in the open.

What makes you guys finally admit to being rich while denying it for so many years?

What is different this time?

Why do you despise people who know how to make money, Dave? Is it because it's a skill that generally eludes you?

There is a huge difference between those that work for it Vs those that don't.

Living on interest and funds/stocks != working for it.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
How may ATers are affected by this?

That news may produce a shrug from many people who have lost their jobs or homes in this economy. The problem is that when the wealthy get stingy, it trickles down to the rest of us.

When the majority of Americans are worse off, that trickles up to many wealthy.

This was the point of Henry Ford's famous statement that he was going to pay his workers a lot better because he needed people who could afford to buy his cars. The converse is true, too.

However, it also provides some people the chance to buy real etate/companies cheap.