Edit:22 Update 2: Experts warned Fukushima of tsunami threat 2 years ago.

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futuristicmonkey

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,031
0
76


You'll have to pardon me - I totally misunderstood your point. I thought that you meant that losses were not constant along the line yet somehow concentrated near the end when in fact you were speaking about the distribution circuits dissipating the majority of the loss.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
Techs, you might be the new Dave.

Drive for 5=zomg nuclear power is the devil!
Weeks after the Nuclear Energy Institute, the Japanese government and the owners of Fukushima said there was no problem, nothing to see, its still a critical situation.

The enormous losses Japan is taking due to this disaster certainly wiped out any savings they may have earned over conventional plants.

And to find out they never considered the idea of tsunami for the first thirty years the plant was in operation shows that there really is no concern for safety in the nuclear industry.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
This thread must be a part of


"WHAT DID WE DO WRONG"

"You should have built a really tall wall that would block almost every tsunami ever"
"I believe we did that"
"Hmm, well you should have built an even TALLER wall to block almost ever tsunamis you couldn't ever expect!"
"BRILLIANT, what else?!"

"You should have put the generators on high ground so that they wouldn't get wet"
"We also did that"
"Well you should have put them on even HIGHER ground so they wouldn't get wet"
"ALSO BRILLIANT"

MY WORK HERE IS DONE

"THANK YOU CAPTAIN HINDSIGHT. GOD BLESS YOU."

Yup.
 
Last edited:

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,428
11,758
136
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42359020/from/RSS/

Entomb? Cement pumps flown in to nuke plant
Same company that helped seal in Chernobyl is sending equipment

"TOKYO — Some of the world's largest cement pumps were en route to Japan's stricken nuclear plant on Thursday, initially to help douse areas with water but eventually for cement work — including the possibility of entombing the site as was done in Chernobyl.

Operated via remote control, one of the truck-mounted pumps was already at the Fukushima Dai-ichi site and being used to spray water. Four more will be flown in from Germany and the United States, according to the German-manufacturer Putzmeister. The biggest of the five has an arm that extends well over 200 feet.

"Initially, they will probably pump water," Putzmeister stated. "Later they will be used for any necessary concreting work."

A construction company in Augusta, Ga., was among those redirecting the pumps to Japan. Its owner said he believes building a concrete sarcophagus will follow.

"Our understanding is they are preparing to go to next phase and it will require a lot of concrete," Jerry Ashmore told the Augusta Chronicle.

He did not expect the pump to return. "It will be too hot to come back," Ashmore said.

A cargo plane is expected to fly the truck and pump from Atlanta next week at a cost of $1.4 million.

Putzmeister concrete pumps were among those used to seal in the Chernobyl reactor after it exploded in Ukraine in 1986, and sightings of the first truck at the Dai-ichi complex last week led to media speculation that Japan was planning to do the same in Fukushima.

Meanwhile, the Mainichi newspaper reported Friday that Japan's government plans to take control of Tokyo Electric Power Co., the operator of the stricken nuclear plant, by injecting public funds.

But the government is unlikely to take more than a 50 percent stake in the company, an unnamed government official was quoted by the daily as saying.

"If the stake goes over 50 percent, it will be nationalized. But that's not what we are considering," the official was quoted as saying.

Japanese trade minister Banri Kaieda said the government has yet to debate the possibility of nationalizing or taking control of TEPCO, Kyodo news agency reported.

The government may set up a team to discuss TEPCO-related compensation issues, Kyodo quoted Kaieda, whose ministry oversees nuclear safety, as saying, as the firm faces a huge potential compensation bill.

TEPCO could face compensation claims topping $130 billion if Japan's worst nuclear crisis dragged on, Bank of America-Merrill Lynch estimated this week, further fueling expectations Japan's government will step in to save Asia's largest utility.

Earlier Thursday, TEPCO said that short-lived radioactive contaminants 10,000 times above health standards were found in groundwater below the power plant.

Contaminated water has been pooling at the complex since it was damaged by the devastating earthquake and tsunami. Some was already known to have leaked into the sea and soil, and now groundwater is part of that mix.

The high levels of iodine-131 were measured in groundwater 45 feet beneath the reactor at Unit 1, Tokyo Electric Power spokesman Naoyuki Matsumo told reporters.

Matsumo emphasized that the local drinking water supply was not affected, which is the main way people might be harmed by iodine-131, which decays quickly, with half disappearing in eight days.

Contamination from the plant has also been seeping into the sea, though so far poses no threat to human health. Levels of radioactive iodine rose again Thursday in seawater some 360 yards from the shore to 4,385 times the legal limit.

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said Thursday that consistently high levels found in seawater outside the plant may mean radiation is leaking out continuously.

"That is a possibility," Agency Deputy Director-General Hidehiko Nishiyama told a news conference when asked if there was continuous contamination of the sea.

He added that regulators and engineers did not know where the leaks may be.

On Wednesday, nuclear safety officials said seawater 300 yards outside the plant contained 3,355 times the legal limit of radioactivity.

Japanese officials are increasingly seeking outside help, including experts in eliminating contaminated water from French nuclear giant Areva. Experts and a robot from the U.S. have also arrived in Japan.

"The amount of water is enormous, and we need any wisdom available," nuclear safety agency spokesman Hidehiko Nishiyama said.

Areva CEO Anne Lauvergeon said she appreciated the enormity of the problem. Areva, a large supplier of nuclear fuel, sent staff with expertise in boiling water reactors and disposing of contaminated water and fuel rods.

"There is no precedent (for this kind of problem), and it's very complex," she said at a news conference in Tokyo.

The U.S. has also sent a remote-controlled robot, and officials from TEPCO said they expect to use it within a few days for evaluating areas with high radiation.

In other developments:

* Efforts to recover the bodies of tsunami and quake victims from the evacuation zone have been slowed by debris, but also by fears of radiation. Police dressed in full radiation suits retrieved 19 corpses from the rubble Wednesday, a police official said. Each officer wears a radiation detector and must leave the area whenever an alarm goes off — a frequent occurrence that has often dragged the operation to a halt, the official said. "We want to recover bodies quickly, but also must ensure the safety of police officers against nuclear radiation," he said. Local media have estimated hundreds of bodies remain.
* Hundreds of evacuees from the area around the stricken nuclear plant are being turned away by hospitals and shelters because of fear they may be carrying radiation, a British newspaper reported. The Daily Telegraph said some officials were demanding that evacuees provide certificates proving they have not been exposed to contamination.
* French President Nicolas Sarkozy arrived in Japan Thursday, the first leader to visit since the devastating earthquake and tsunami sparked the worst nuclear crisis since Chernobyl in 1986.
* Japan's health ministry ordered more tests after a cow slaughtered for beef was found to have radioactive contamination slightly higher than the legal limit. Officials stressed that the meat was not ever put on the market. Contamination has already been found in vegetables and raw milk near the plant, which has been leaking radiation since the March 11 earthquake and tsunami. The cesium was found in a cow slaughtered March 15 more than 40 miles from the plant. The cow had a total cesium level of 510 becquerels per kilogram. The limit is 500. A person could eat beef with that level of contamination for decades without getting sick.

As officials seek to bring an end to the nuclear crisis, hundreds of thousands in the northeast are still trying to put their lives back together following the earthquake and tsunami, which killed more than 11,000 people and left over 16,000 missing.

The government said damage is expected to cost $310 billion, making it the most costly natural disaster on record.
Story: NBC's Robert Bazell answers your questions onJapan's nuclear crisis

In the small coastal city of Miyako, many people still have no idea what happened to their relatives. Residents watched intently Thursday as a firefighter in a boat and two tractors cleared the bay of rubble, part of cleanup efforts under way along hundreds of miles of Japan's northeastern seaboard.

Giant tractors and dump trucks cleared roads and sorted debris into giant piles. Huge barges with onboard cranes docked offshore and scooped up wreckage in the shallow bays.

"I lost three grandchildren," says Isamu Aneishi, 69, who sat on a log for hours and watched the men search the bay. "
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,428
11,758
136
That's amazing...


Following a link from that story...I find this"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...a-plant-entombed-concrete-radiation-leak.html

The 100-year battle to make Fukushima safe: Grim prediction as brave workers expect to 'die within weeks'

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 9:34 PM on 1st April 2011

* Workers warned they're facing a 100-year battle to make fuel rods safe
* Those battling to stop nuclear meltdown are expected to die in weeks
* American recruiter asked to hire technicians to help
* World's largest concrete pump is being flown from U.S. to assist
* Evacuation zone refugees won't be able to go home for months, admits Japanese minister
* Joint Japanese-U.S. mission recovers bodies from sea
* Man arrested after crashing car through gate of stricken N-plant
* TEPCO releases video showing damage inside Fukushima's Unit 4
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
That's amazing...


Following a link from that story...I find this"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...a-plant-entombed-concrete-radiation-leak.html

The 100-year battle to make Fukushima safe: Grim prediction as brave workers expect to 'die within weeks'

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 9:34 PM on 1st April 2011

* Workers warned they're facing a 100-year battle to make fuel rods safe
* Those battling to stop nuclear meltdown are expected to die in weeks
* American recruiter asked to hire technicians to help
* World's largest concrete pump is being flown from U.S. to assist
* Evacuation zone refugees won't be able to go home for months, admits Japanese minister
* Joint Japanese-U.S. mission recovers bodies from sea
* Man arrested after crashing car through gate of stricken N-plant
* TEPCO releases video showing damage inside Fukushima's Unit 4

"Those battling to stop nuclear meltdown are expected to die in weeks"

wat

expected = expecting? media hype or is there an actual legitimate source to this?
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
2
0
"Those battling to stop nuclear meltdown are expected to die in weeks"

wat

expected = expecting? media hype or is there an actual legitimate source to this?

i think i found your answer:

One British nuclear expert has warned that it might take a century to make safe the melting fuel rods at the plant.

too bad they couldn't be bothered to give a name to that statement
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,428
11,758
136
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110402/wl_nm/us_japan_quake

Japan nuclear struggle focuses on cracked reactor pit

"TOKYO (Reuters) – Japanese officials grappling on Sunday to end the world's worst nuclear crisis since Chernobyl were focusing on a crack in a concrete pit that was leaking radiation into the ocean from a crippled reactor.

Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) said it had found a crack in the pit at its No.2 reactor in Fukushima, generating readings 1,000 millisieverts of radiation per hour in the air inside the pit.

"With radiation levels rising in the seawater near the plant, we have been trying to confirm the reason why, and in that context, this could be one source," said Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy head of the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA), said on Saturday.

He cautioned, however: "We can't really say for certain until we've studied the results."

Leakage did not stop even after concrete was poured into the pit, and Tokyo Electric is now planning to use water-absorbent polymer to prevent contaminated water from leaking out into the sea.

Officials from the utility said checks of the other five reactors found no cracks.

Nishiyama said that to cool the damaged reactor, NISA was looking at alternatives to pumping in water, including an improvised air conditioning system, spraying the reactor fuel rods with vaporized water or using the plant's cleaning system."




I really have to take my hat off to these folks who continue working in hazardous conditions trying to fix this thing. They've got balls as big as church bells.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110402/wl_nm/us_japan_quake

Japan nuclear struggle focuses on cracked reactor pit

"TOKYO (Reuters) – Japanese officials grappling on Sunday to end the world's worst nuclear crisis since Chernobyl were focusing on a crack in a concrete pit that was leaking radiation into the ocean from a crippled reactor.

Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) said it had found a crack in the pit at its No.2 reactor in Fukushima, generating readings 1,000 millisieverts of radiation per hour in the air inside the pit.

"With radiation levels rising in the seawater near the plant, we have been trying to confirm the reason why, and in that context, this could be one source," said Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy head of the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA), said on Saturday.

He cautioned, however: "We can't really say for certain until we've studied the results."

Leakage did not stop even after concrete was poured into the pit, and Tokyo Electric is now planning to use water-absorbent polymer to prevent contaminated water from leaking out into the sea.

Officials from the utility said checks of the other five reactors found no cracks.

Nishiyama said that to cool the damaged reactor, NISA was looking at alternatives to pumping in water, including an improvised air conditioning system, spraying the reactor fuel rods with vaporized water or using the plant's cleaning system."




I really have to take my hat off to these folks who continue working in hazardous conditions trying to fix this thing. They've got balls as big as church bells.

This, then this.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,428
11,758
136
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42397653/from/RSS/

Missing workers found dead at Japan nuclear plant
Effort to plug up leak of radioactive water into Pacific Ocean fails

RIKUZENTAKATA, Japan — Two missing Fukushima nuclear plant workers were found dead on Sunday as more highly radioactive water spilled into the sea and authorities struggled to seal the leak.

The two workers — a 21-year-old and a 24-year-old — had been missing since a massive March 11 earthquake and tsunami, but their bodies were discovered only last week at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex.

Damage to the plant from the tsunami has spiraled into the world's worst nuclear crisis since the 1986 meltdown at Chernobyl in the former Soviet Union.

"It pains me that these two young workers were trying to protect the power plant while being hit by the earthquake and tsunami," Tokyo Electric Power Co. Chairman Tsunehisa Katsumata said in a statement.

The announcement of the death was delayed out of consideration for the families, said Naoki Tsunoda, a spokesman for TEPCO.

The men sustained multiple external injuries and are believed to have died from blood loss, Tsunoda said. Their bodies had to be decontaminated because radiation has been spewing from the plant over the past three weeks.

The National Police Agency said that 12,009 people were officially reported dead and 15,472 missing in the aftermath of the magnitude-9.0 earthquake and tsunami.

On Saturday, workers discovered an 8-inch-long crack in a maintenance pit at the Fukushima plant that they said was believed to have been caused by the earthquake. Water containing levels of radioactive iodine far above the legal limit spilled from it into the Pacific, said Hidehiko Nishiyama of Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.

A picture released by TEPCO shows water shooting some distance away from a wall and splashing into the sea, though the amount of water was not clear. The contaminated water was expected to quickly dissipate in the ocean but could pose a danger to workers at the plant.

Pooling water at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex — which is believed to come from the reactor cores — has repeatedly forced technicians to pull back and suspend their work.

Word of the leak came Saturday as Prime Minister Naoto Kan toured the town of Rikuzentakata, his first trip to survey damage in one of the dozens of villages, towns and cities slammed by the tsunami.

"The government has been too focused on the Fukushima power plant rather than the tsunami victims. Both deserve attention," said 35-year-old Megumi Shimanuki, who was visiting her family at a community center converted into a shelter in hard-hit Natori, about 100 miles from Rikuzentakata.

More than 165,000 are still living in shelters, and tens of thousands more still do not have electricity or running water.

Although the government had rushed to provide relief, its attention has been divided by the efforts at the Fuskushima plant.

The plant's reactors overheated to dangerous levels after electrical pumps — deprived of power — failed to circulate water to keep them cool. A series of almost daily problems have led to substantial amounts of radiation leaking into the atmosphere, ground and sea. Huge hydrogen explosions destroyed the buildings surrounding two of the reactors.

Over the past 10 days, pools of contaminated water have been found throughout the plant and high levels of radioactivity have been measured in the ocean, but this marks the first time authorities said they had found a spot where the water was directly entering the sea.

A search of the plant found no other similar leaks leading directly to the ocean. "We believe that's the only crack," said Tsunoda, the TEPCO spokesman.

Soon after the discovery, workers tried to seal the crack but could not get the concrete to dry. Next, they will try injecting polymer, according to Tsunoda.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110403/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake

Engineers fail to seal leak at Japan nuke plant

TOKYO – Engineers failed to seal a crack where highly radioactive water was spilling into the Pacific from a Japanese nuclear power plant incapacitated by last month's earthquake-spawned tsunami but said a search of the site found no other leaks Sunday.

The wave has carved a path of destruction up and down the coast and is believed to have killed 25,000 people. The first deaths at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant itself, though, were confirmed Sunday by the operator. A 21-year-old and a 24-year-old were believed to be conducting regular checks at the complex when the 9.0-magnitude earthquake hit March 11.

"It pains me that these two young workers were trying to protect the power plant while being hit by the earthquake and tsunami," Tokyo Electric Power Co. Chairman Tsunehisa Katsumata said in a statement.

It was unclear why the men did not evacuate when the quake hit.

The bodies were not discovered until Wednesday and had to be decontaminated. The announcement was delayed out of respect for the victims' families, TEPCO spokesman Naoki Tsunoda said.

Radiation has been spewing from the plant, leaking into the air, ground and sea. On Saturday, authorities discovered a crack from which radioactive water was spilling into the Pacific — the first time they identified a direct source of sea contamination.

A picture released by TEPCO shows water shooting some distance away from a wall and splashing into the sea, though the amount of water was not clear. The contaminated water will quickly dissipate in the ocean but could pose a danger to workers at the plant.

Pooling water at the nuclear complex — which is believed to ultimately come from the reactor cores — has repeatedly forced technicians to pull back and suspend their work.

After the massive tsunami knocked out power to the plant three weeks ago, cooling systems failed, and the reactors have been dangerously overheating since. A series of almost daily problems has led to substantial amounts of radiation leaking into the atmosphere, ground and sea in the world's worst nuclear crisis since the 1986 meltdown at Chernobyl in the former Soviet Union.

The 8-inch- (20-centimeter-) long crack in a maintenance pit at the Fukushima plant is believed to have been caused by the 9.0-magnitude earthquake that generated the wave. Water containing levels of radioactive iodine far above the legal limit spilled from it into the Pacific, said Hidehiko Nishiyama of Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.

Workers flooded the pit with concrete in an effort to seal the crack but couldn't get it to dry.

Next, they plan to inject polymer into a pipe that connects the pit to the rest of the system. Polymer can absorb enormous amounts of water and expands 50 times its original size.

Over the past 10 days, pools of contaminated water have been found throughout the plant and high levels of radioactivity have been measured in the ocean.

A search of the plant found no other similar leaks leading directly to the ocean. "We believe that's the only crack," said Tsunoda.

People living within 12 miles (20 kilometers) of the plant have been evacuated, but, as with previous leaks, it could pose a danger to workers.

A nuclear plant worker who fell into the ocean Friday while trying to board a barge carrying water to help cool the plant did not show any immediate signs of being exposed to unsafe levels of radiation, nuclear safety officials said Saturday, but they were waiting for test results to be sure.

Workers have been reluctant to talk to the media about what they are experiencing, but one who spent several days at the plant described difficult conditions in an anonymous interview published Saturday in the national Mainichi newspaper.

When he was called in mid-March to help restore power at the plant, he said he did not tell his family because he didn't want them to worry. But he did tell a friend to notify his parents if he did not return in two weeks.

"I feel very strongly that there is nobody but us to do this job, and we cannot go home until we finish the work," he said.

Early on, the company ran out of full radiation suits, forcing workers to create improvised versions of items such as nylon booties they were supposed to pull over their shoes.

Radiation worries have compounded the misery for people trying to recover from the tsunami. So far, 12,000 deaths have been confirmed, and another 15,400 people are missing.

Sunday marks the last day of an all-out joint search by the U.S. and Japanese militaries for bodies in coastal waters. The effort is probably the final hope for retrieving the dead.
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
2
0
and the alternative solution would be?

continue efforts to stabilize the plant, then disassemble, decontaminate the land and dispose of radioactive materials. i think a thorough cleanup and autopsy is a much better option to the nightmare that is the chernobyl sarcophagus.
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,281
43
91
continue efforts to stabilize the plant, then disassemble, decontaminate the land and dispose of radioactive materials. i think a thorough cleanup and autopsy is a much better option to the nightmare that is the chernobyl sarcophagus.


It really does depend though on how much contamination there is at the scene. Undamaged they can dispose of the fuel rods easily. If the site is heavily contaminated over a large area though it will take many years to clean it up. I agree this is STILL the best option but they may think it too expensive and decide just to take the cheap and quick route.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
Let's focus the 'war effort' on a global scale to stopping this later day issue.

Everyone wins.

I keep reading references to war in this thread by you, in relation to Fukushima problem. Maybe I am being dense, but I don't get the correlation. Care to expand on this post?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
cheap and quick always wins sadly, because those making the decisions can move away and directly profit from that decision.

Meanwhile the sheep will brey at me.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
I keep reading references to war in this thread by you, in relation to Fukushima problem. Maybe I am being dense, but I don't get the correlation. Care to expand on this post?

First, do you agree this problem is a WORLD problem?

if not, carry on.

Second, do you agree that much of the world is spending a ton on war efforts that will really not win anything except cashflow?

if not, carry on.

So, why not drop the swords and direct that cashflow at a real global issue?
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
First, do you agree this problem is a WORLD problem?

if not, carry on.

Second, do you agree that much of the world is spending a ton on war efforts that will really not win anything except cashflow?

if not, carry on.

So, why not drop the swords and direct that cashflow at a real global issue?

It is a world problem in the sense that the radiation leakage has the potential to produce global problems, yes. Also the impact on Japans economy will have global implications.

So if I understand you correctly, you are arguing that the problem will be fixed better/more quickly if the current conflicts and wars were to stop, and the money being spent on those was given to Japan. Is that what you are driving at?

I am trying to understand your point, not brey at you. Why not just say what you mean instead of answering my question with more questions? If you are simply antiwar, I can respect that but I don't get the correlation.

EDIT: what solution exists for the Fukishima problem that simply needs more money to be enacted?
 
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