Educate me on the roadmap for Core M *** and U series now *** esp. Kaby Lake and later

[SAAA]

Outside of CPU speed per watt, is there any point in holding off for Cannonlake? IOW, are there killer must-have features that are in Cannonlake?

Aside from 10nm awesomeness? None. Yeah I know there's the usual slightly higher IPC, better IGP, probably new decoders, a few new instructions and maaybe AVX512 too but that's about it.

Coming soon, third to fourth quarter 2017, same as Kaby that's officially out now if you look weel enough. I'd call it 2018 to have a decent amount of devices to choose from though.

 

[imported_bman]

I own an Asus 305CA which is Skylake-Y and it is by far the best laptop I have owned, Kaby-Y with the frequency boost and VP9 hardware decode are really nice improvements.

As for speculating on Cannonlake I am guessing improved graphics will be the closest thing to a killer feature. Gen 10 graphics should get a significant performance improvements from both the move to 10nm and architecture. I think that Intel is supposed to start supporting Freesync with Gen 10 graphics (whether or not manufacturers enabled it is another question though). Multimedia capabilities will likely be the same as Kaby, I doubt we will see true hardware decode for the upcoming AV1 codec till 2018. CPU performance will get a boost from 10nm, but not to the point that it will enable Core M to be useful for workloads that it is currently unsuited for. Also battery life should get a nice boost from 10nm and hopefully more if Intel enables DDR4/LPDDR4/LPDDR4x on the Y-series with Cannonlake.

 

[MarkizSchnitzel]

Buy something with tax benefit now, sell with profit, leave the money towards your 2018 purchase. Not a lot of people have that kind of budgetary discipline, but you seem like you might

Though, you raised an interesting topic, which is bugging me now.
Currently I have a vastly underutilized desktop + an atom 2-in-1 Asus t100.
I'd really want to get a coreM (or now again Y series) convertible/2-in-1, but seems like cannonlake will be the biggest advancement in years.
Sure, there is ALWAYS something around the corner, but this one seems big, with new graphics AND process, considering that Civ6 is the upper limit on req that I have.

 

[Eug]

Buy something with tax benefit now, sell with profit, leave the money towards your 2018 purchase. Not a lot of people have that kind of budgetary discipline, but you seem like you might

Though, you raised an interesting topic, which is bugging me now.
Currently I have a vastly underutilized desktop + an atom 2-in-1 Asus t100.
I'd really want to get a coreM (or now again Y series) convertible/2-in-1, but seems like cannonlake will be the biggest advancement in years.
Sure, there is ALWAYS something around the corner, but this one seems big, with new graphics AND process, considering that Civ6 is the upper limit on req that I have.

Does Cannonlake seem like a bigger deal than Kaby Lake? Sure Cannonlake has more, but features wise Kaby Lake seems like a big deal to me. Or are you talking about 10 nm?

I haven't decided what I'll do yet, but maybe I'll just buy whatever comes out soon, if it's decent. Sure I may not have full hardware HEVC decode but in truth the only HEVC I play right now is 1080p. Even my iPad can (usually) play it, although it does get stressed out somewhat from it. On a few year old desktop machine though it's less stressful. Still uses a lot of CPU, but for occasional use it's not too bad. And Skylake does have 8-bit HEVC hardware support.

But what really bugs me is the lack of HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 support. I would only use this occasionally, but I always hate buying hardware without specific hardware support like this when it's already mainstream. It'd be like buying a machine with USB 3 only back in 2012.

BTW, I came across this 10-bit HEVC Skylake decode test:

http://wp.xin.at/archives/3561

I own an Asus 305CA which is Skylake-Y and it is by far the best laptop I have owned, Kaby-Y with the frequency boost and VP9 hardware decode are really nice improvements.

As for speculating on Cannonlake I am guessing improved graphics will be the closest thing to a killer feature. Gen 10 graphics should get a significant performance improvements from both the move to 10nm and architecture. I think that Intel is supposed to start supporting Freesync with Gen 10 graphics (whether or not manufacturers enabled it is another question though). Multimedia capabilities will likely be the same as Kaby, I doubt we will see true hardware decode for the upcoming AV1 codec till 2018. CPU performance will get a boost from 10nm, but not to the point that it will enable Core M to be useful for workloads that it is currently unsuited for. Also battery life should get a nice boost from 10nm and hopefully more if Intel enables DDR4/LPDDR4/LPDDR4x on the Y-series with Cannonlake.

Forgot about AV1. 2018, but on what chip? Will Cannonlake support it in hardware?

 

[imported_bman]

I would guess that Intel won't have an AV1 hardware solution till Icelake or later. Intel is on the board for the alliance for open media so maybe they be much faster this time around implementing AV1 hardware decoder than VP9 or HEVC. It will take a while for AV1 to catch on outside of Youtube, even on Youtube the VP9 fallback won't have the short comings of the H264 fallback (4k/1440p 60fps). I don't think Kaby has USB 3.1 or HDMI 2.0, thought you can probably just use a Thunderbolt to HDMI adapter to get HDCP 2.2 and 4k@60FPS+HDR.

 

[Eug]

I would guess that Intel won't have an AV1 hardware solution till Icelake or later. Intel is on the board for the alliance for open media so maybe they be much faster this time around implementing AV1 hardware decoder than VP9 or HEVC. It will take a while for AV1 to catch on outside of Youtube, even on Youtube the VP9 fallback won't have the short comings of the H264 fallback (4k/1440p 60fps). I don't think Kaby has USB 3.1 or HDMI 2.0, thought you can probably just use a Thunderbolt to HDMI adapter to get HDCP 2.2 and 4k@60FPS+HDR.

I just read this article which states that while Kaby Lake does bring USB 3.1, it's only for the desktop. It won't be there on mobile. However, this probably won't matter for Macs, since all the Macs will likely support 3.1 anyway, even if an external chip is needed.

And AnandTech confirms what you said about HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. It is STILL absent for Kaby Lake U and Kaby Lake Y.

WTF. But yeah, a Thunderbolt adapter would work (for a MacBook Pro), assuming HDCP 2.2 is also supported.

No 5K monitor support though.

 

[Eug]

Skylake vs Kaby Lake video playback on U.

http://gizmodo.com/intels-new-kaby-lake-processors-what-you-need-to-know-1785889498/amp

 

[jpiniero]

And AnandTech confirms what you said about HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. It is STILL absent for Kaby Lake U and Kaby Lake Y.

I believe there was a rumor that there will be a second wave of Kaby U and Y models that do have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 that will be released later.

 

[Eug]

Intel Kaby Lake Review: What optimization can do for a 14nm CPU

"With hardware acceleration of 10-bit HEVC video, the 7th-gen Kaby Lake Core i5-7200U is buttery-smooth playing both 1080p and 4K video."

"This 1080p HEVC file encoded with 10-bit color depth will drag a Skylake Core i5-6200U to the ground."

 

[nvgpu]

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Kaby-Lake-Core-i7-7500U-Review-Skylake-on-Steroids.172692.0.html

Our demanding 4K trailer (HEVC Main10, 50 Mbps, 60 fps) is handled smoothly by the i7-7500U at an average power consumption of just 3.2 Watts (CPU Package Power), while the video stuttered noticeably on the i7-6600U despite a consumption of 16.5 Watts.

Definitely skip Skylake, while I don't think HEVC is relevant in streaming because AV1 will be very widely adopted in the Internet streaming space because of the onerous licensing & royalties terms from greedy HEVC patent pools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOMedia_Video_1

 

[mikk]

"Kaby Lake processor lineup which includes the H, S, U, Y series chips, ... These chips will feature the GT2 graphics chip and feature integrated HDCP 2.2 support"

http://wccftech.com/intel-kaby-lake-200-series-chipset-processor-platform/

All current available U/Y Kabylake models don't support HDMI 2.0, there is a new stepping coming, possibly early next year. This is all known since ages.

 

[Eug]

All current available U/Y Kabylake models don't support HDMI 2.0, there is a new stepping coming, possibly early next year. This is all known since ages.

I've decided I may be willing to forego the HDMI 2.0 as long as 4K DRM is supported on the built-in screen.

And today's Apple MacBook Pro launch was not very impressive, esp. since as expected they are all Skylake, and they're going to be adopting the MacBook keyboard or something very similar.

So, I'll probably just end up getting a Kaby Lake Core i7-Y or Core i5-Y 12" MacBook in the spring, assuming Apple updates the MacBook 12" Retina with that then. That timing would work out well for me, in terms of the tax man. And the form factor rocks.

 

[nikoli1978]

I've decided I may be willing to forego the HDMI 2.0 as long as 4K DRM is supported on the built-in screen.

And today's Apple MacBook Pro launch was not very impressive, esp. since as expected they are all Skylake, and they're going to be adopting the MacBook keyboard or something very similar.

So, I'll probably just end up getting a Kaby Lake Core i7-Y or Core i5-Y 12" MacBook in the spring, assuming Apple updates the MacBook 12" Retina with that then. That timing would work out well for me, in terms of the tax man. And the form factor rocks.

All I want to know is what, if anything, am I missing out on if I buy an 27" iMac Retina w/ the i7 option (6700k) now... and skip out on a similar Kaby Lake model that'll likely be offered at some point in 2017? I mean, what is that Kaby Lake equivalent going to offer that the current Skylake iMac can't do? They both are capable of Thunderbolt 3 operation right?

 

[Eug]

All I want to know is what, if anything, am I missing out on if I buy an 27" iMac Retina w/ the i7 option (6700k) now... and skip out on a similar Kaby Lake model that'll likely be offered at some point in 2017? I mean, what is that Kaby Lake equivalent going to offer that the current Skylake iMac can't do? They both are capable of Thunderbolt 3 operation right?

My understanding is the Skylake iMac does not support 4K streaming DRM, but the Kaby Lake iMac may support 4K streaming DRM.

 

[nikoli1978]

My understanding is the Skylake iMac does not support 4K streaming DRM, but the Kaby Lake iMac may support 4K streaming DRM.

Thanks for the reply. You'll have to forgive my ignorance but do you mean digital rights management?

Like I couldn't watch a movie I purchased from iTunes on an external monitor?

 

[Eug]

Thanks for the reply. You'll have to forgive my ignorance but do you mean digital rights management?

Like I couldn't watch a movie I purchased from iTunes on an external monitor?

Yes, digital rights management.

But I was specifically referring to 4K. As in you can't watch ANY DRM'd 4K on a Skylake iMac, even on its built-in screen.

It's moot for iTunes though, since they don't have 4K at all anyway.

My main concern here is Netflix. However, we don't know for sure if Netflix 4K will come to the Kaby Lake iMac. But there is a good chance it could. As evidence, Sony's 4K streaming service only works on Kaby Lake (or later) on Windows PCs. No Sony 4K streaming on Skylake.

http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/9/1/12748702/intel-kaby-lake-sony-ultra-streaming

 

[nikoli1978]

Yes, digital rights management.

But I was specifically referring to 4K. As in you can't watch ANY DRM'd 4K on a Skylake iMac, even on its built-in screen.

It's moot for iTunes though, since they don't have 4K at all anyway.

My main concern here is Netflix. However, we don't know for sure if Netflix 4K will come to the Kaby Lake iMac. But there is a good chance it could. As evidence, Sony's 4K streaming service only works on Kaby Lake (or later) on Windows PCs. No Sony 4K streaming on Skylake.

http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/9/1/12748702/intel-kaby-lake-sony-ultra-streaming

That's interesting... and somewhat disappointing. Though probably not a deal breaker for me since I don't do much consuming of media on my iMac anyway. It's more of an Apple Logic X machine for me.

I'm mostly interested in the throughput of thunderbolt 3. The only difference I see there between Skylake and Kaby is that Skylake requires an external TB3 controller, while KL has it integrated within the chip itself. Is there any advantage or disadvantage there that you know of?

 

[Eug]

Are there benchmarks out there comparing Kaby Lake Y m3 vs i5 on the same platform? I can't seem to find any.

My assessment based on specs though is that Kaby Lake Y m3 should compete well against Skylake Y m5, and Kaby Lake Y i5 is significantly faster than most. (Plus Kaby Lake gets the video decoder upgrades, etc.)

I'm not sure at this point for my future purchase, if I should get m3 or i5. My needs are light, but nonetheless I've come to appreciate zippy CPUs, even just for surfing.

 

[Eug]

All current available U/Y Kabylake models don't support HDMI 2.0, there is a new stepping coming, possibly early next year. This is all known since ages.

Thanks for the info on the stepping. Glad to see they followed through.

It would seem the new MacBooks likely support HDCP 2.2 now. From this report:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-615.174029.0.html

The revised video engine now supports H.265/HEVC Main10 profile in hardware with 10 bit colors. Furthermore, Googles VP9 codec can also be hardware decoded. The first models do not support HDCP 2.2 and therefore Netflix 4K. This was added with the new models in 2017 and beginning of May 2017 also the older CPU models like the m3-7Y30 are now shipped with a new S-Spec Code that supports HDCP 2.2. HDMI 2.0 however is still only supported with an external converter chip (LSPCon).