Educate me on the roadmap for Core M *** and U series now *** esp. Kaby Lake and later

[Eug]

I'm getting lost in the conjecture and the rumours, as well as the actual info that's for other CPU classes of each generation.

Specifically, does anyone have any reliable information as to the Core M lines of the coming generations of Intel CPUs?

For example:

Should I expect Core M Kaby Lake to have full 10-bit H.265 HEVC hardware decoding, and will it work fine with 4K sources?
Should I expect Core M Kaby Lake to be able output 4K 60 Hz?
Will most Core M Kaby Lake ultrabooks include full HDCP 2.2 support?
Will most Core M Kaby Lake ultrabooks include HDMI 2.0 support?
Will Core M Kaby Lake include USB 3.1 standard?

I know most of this stuff is supposed to be there for the higher power Kaby lake classes, but I'm finding it difficult to know if this all trickles down to the Core M parts. Also, even if it does come to Core M, would be on all versions of Core M, or would it just be on top-of-the-line parts?

Outside of CPU speed per watt, is there any point in holding off for Cannonlake? IOW, are there killer must-have features that are in Cannonlake?

 

[bhtooefr]

Based on Skylake, where the -Y (Core mx-6Yxx) SKUs were the same silicon as the -U (Core ix-6xxxU) SKUs, I'd be surprised if Kaby Lake doesn't follow that trend.

 

[jpiniero]

Feature-wise I would expect Core M to be similar to the high power models. I believe there were rumors that the early Kabylake models (U and Y) would not support HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 though. You can do 4K @ 60 Hz today on Skylake but only using DP.

 

[dbcoopernz]

According to DigiTimes:

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20160302PD204.html

Intel's Kaby Lake-series processors, which are scheduled to launch in the third quarter, but will not begin volume production until the end of 2016, while AMD is set to release its Zen architecture-based processors at the end of the fourth quarter. The two CPU products families are expected to enter fierce competition by the end of the year, according to sources from the upstream supply chain.

Intel originally planned to have the 10nm Cannon Lake succeed its 14nm Skylake architecture in mid-2016, but has changed its plan to push the 14nm Kaby Lake as the successor, allowing its 10nm process more time to increase yield rates.

Intel's Kaby Lake-series will begin with the U-series which will start small volume production in mid-June, with mass production to start in November or December. The corresponding chipsets including the Z270 and H270-series will be announced in October at the earliest.

AMD plans to release AM4 socket-based eight-core high-end Summit Ridge and Raven Ridge-series processors both using its Zen architecture and manufactured on Samsung Electronics' and Globalfoundries' 14nm processes in the first quarter of 2017. Several motherboard players expect the new platform's improved performance and strong price competitiveness to give AMD some competitive advantages.

 

[Eug]

OK thanks guys.

I was not aware that Skylake -Y was essentially the same silicon as Skylake -U. Interesting, and encouraging.

Although I won't actually truly need HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 soon, I like to future proof my laptop purchases with key features like that. If Core M Kaby Lake doesn't include it, maybe I'll wait until Cannonlake.

Even if Cannonlake Core M laptops aren't out until 2018, I can wait. If I wait until 2018, that will mean my primary laptop is a decade old when I upgrade it. I'm currently still using a 2008 Core 2 Duo, but it's mated to a GPU which provides full H.264 AVC 1080p decode support from a video point of view even with the explosion of HD video on the net, I haven't needed to upgrade just yet (aside from SSD and more RAM).

I don't think I've ever used a computer for that long as my primary machine before. Even my Asus P2B with Celeron 366 --> Pentium III Tualatin doesn't compare in terms of life span.

 

[Eug]

It seems the Core m5 6Y54 and m7 6Y75 Skylake reviews are trickling out now. So same time frame in 2017 for Kaby Lake Y assuming production does start in late 2016?

 

[Sweepr]

It seems the Core m5 6Y54 and m7 6Y75 Skylake reviews are trickling out now. So same time frame in 2017 for Kaby Lake Y assuming production does start in late 2016?

Kabylake-Y GT2 is up and running right now, will possibly be one of the first SKUs introduced in Q3-2016. Late 2016 / early 2017 is for desktops and Iris Pro models.

 

[Eug]

Ok, thanks. That's encouraging.

However, can we believe GFXBench submissions, and their comparative performance results?

 

[Eug]

Feature-wise I would expect Core M to be similar to the high power models. I believe there were rumors that the early Kabylake models (U and Y) would not support HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 though. You can do 4K @ 60 Hz today on Skylake but only using DP.

Do you have a source for this? I can't seem to find it.

If early Kaby Lake U and Y do not have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, I will most definitely wait. I actually don't absolutely need this today, but if it just means waiting 8 months or whatever for Cannonlake, I will do that for futureproofing.

I keep my laptops a very long time these days, and hope to hold onto my next one for at least 5 years.

 

[Burpo]

"Kaby Lake processor lineup which includes the H, S, U, Y series chips, ... These chips will feature the GT2 graphics chip and feature integrated HDCP 2.2 support"

http://wccftech.com/intel-kaby-lake-200-series-chipset-processor-platform/

 

[Eug]

"Kaby Lake processor lineup which includes the H, S, U, Y series chips, ... These chips will feature the GT2 graphics chip and feature integrated HDCP 2.2 support"

http://wccftech.com/intel-kaby-lake-200-series-chipset-processor-platform/

Well, here is the full quote:

As for the specific SKUs, we will see Kaby Lake-S (4+2) and Kaby Lake-S (2+2) SKUs. These chips will feature the GT2 graphics chip and feature integrated HDCP 2.2 support.

They don't specifically mention U and Y, although both do have GT2 as well, according to the posted table.

 

[ksec]

With all these rumors Kaby Lake not getting every features, i start to question why Kaby Lake exist in the first place, only the HEVC 10bit, USB 3.1 and HDMI support? ( And Optane )

This is like Intel trying to milk every god damn juice left in the PC industry, and that means Apple likely move to their own SoC on Mac in 2018.

 

[ShintaiDK]

So you can lack the same features on your Mac. Brilliant move.

The only PC product with the support is GM206. Nothing else!

And most of the SoCs that even support it tends to only do it at 30FPS@4K. Actually I dint even find one with 60, so feel free to link one.

 

[Eug]

I just ordered an HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2 receiver. These features are now entry level for some brands. Picked up a Denon AVR-S710W for CAD$400, which is about US$300. This one isn't entry level, but its entry level little brother also has it.

Now I just need the 4K display and 4K sources. One of those 4K sources will (occasionally) be my new Y or U Kaby Lake or Cannonlake computer.

 

[Eug]

With all these rumors Kaby Lake not getting every features, i start to question why Kaby Lake exist in the first place, only the HEVC 10bit, USB 3.1 and HDMI support? ( And Optane )

GPU?

 

[ksec]

GPU?

there arent any rumors that kaby will get an update on GPU. even the leaked bench doesn't shown any GPU improvement.

 

[Roland00Address]

With all these rumors Kaby Lake not getting every features, i start to question why Kaby Lake exist in the first place, only the HEVC 10bit, USB 3.1 and HDMI support? ( And Optane )

This is like Intel trying to milk every god damn juice left in the PC industry, and that means Apple likely move to their own SoC on Mac in 2018.

To make OEMs happy such as Dell, HP, Lenovo, Apple etc.

Anything that is new features, or higher processor numbers, or new architectures help them increase turn over and keep average selling prices higher. This is the same reason why new car models come out every year even if the chassis and engine is the same for 4 to 8 years.

New means shiney, shiney means markup, without shiney the customer is in a better position to demand price discounts and has more leverage. Shiney means you are acting more with your "emotional automatic brain" instead of the two emotional control networks which can generate their own emotions, but are more "emotional control / channeling" networks since whenever you gain new information the emotional automatic brain always process the information first prior to the two control networks. After these 3 emotion related networks, there is a motor "sequencing" network and then the motor "action network." And depending on your emotional state your brain does A->D->E or it can do A->B->C->D->E or A->C->D->E.

There is a science to this, Dr. Daniel Kahneman got the nobel memorial prize in economics based off his research in this field, he later on wrote a best seller a few years ago called "Thinking Fast and Slow" for each of these brain networks have different reaction speeds and different time scales and based off how you make a person emotional you can influence their decision making and thus their consumer choice at the site of the intended sale. Aka it is the social science that explains things such as the art of selling and the art of marketing. In other words people are not always perfectly rational and perfectly logical and Dr. Daniel Kahneman demonstrated lots of research on how you can change a person's decision making and they do not even realize it for lots of decision making is maded off things that people are not consciously aware of that influence their decision.

 

[ShintaiDK]

HEVC 12 and 16bit is on the way, and VP9(YouTube HTML5) 10bit and upwards too.

So its just a matter before these will be new mandatory features too and make older hardware obsolete for that reason only and nothing else.

 

[Eug]

HEVC 12 and 16bit is on the way, and VP9(YouTube HTML5) 10bit and upwards too.

So its just a matter before these will be new mandatory features too and make older hardware obsolete for that reason only and nothing else.

For all intents and purposes, HEVC 12 and HEVC 16 are completely irrelevant to the mainstream market.

Not completely sure about VP9 10-bit, but then again I'm not worried about its support at all.

Right now and for the foreseeable future, what you need is HEVC 10-bit and VP9 8-bit. And at least by Cannonlake for sure, all SKUs will support both in hardware, along with HDCP 2.2. Maybe even by Kaby Lake... which is why I created this thread. IMO you will be very, very well future-proofed with HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2, HEVC 10-bit, and VP9 8-bit.

I avoided buying new hardware until now for these reasons. As mentioned, I ordered my new HDMI 2.0 + HDCP 2.2 receiver, and I have started looking at new 4K Ultra HD HDR TVs, with intent to buy in the next year or two, depending on price. I will also get a new laptop in the next year or two, and hope to keep it a long time.

 

[VirtualLarry]

HEVC 12 and 16bit is on the way, and VP9(YouTube HTML5) 10bit and upwards too.

So its just a matter before these will be new mandatory features too and make older hardware obsolete for that reason only and nothing else.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the processor mfgs are colluding with the codec developers, in a sneaky, cheeky, way, to do this.

It would essentially force anyone that wants to watch advanced web video (probably a good portion of the people that use any PC faster than a P4 these days), to upgrade every generation for proper hardware-accelerated codec support, or they will be left behind and stuck with software decoding, which, for even more advanced codecs, is going to take more and more CPU grunt, which basically means HEDT platform (or maybe Zen-class 8C/16T APUs?).

So, no more of this, "oh, I'll only upgrade every 5-10 years, CPU performance has stagnated". Now, it's not CPU performance improvements that you have to upgrade for, but hardware iGPU codec support.

Edit: There's a bright spot in all of this though. Intel is combining FPGAs with Xeon CPU cores. If that tech ever trickles down to the mainstream Intel CPU platform, then perhaps the CPU or iGPU will have an FPGA block, that can be re-configured to handle various new codecs that come out, even after the CPU has been designed and produced. That would be ideal for me, with the caveat, that you would only be able to play one type of FPGA accelerated codec at one time.

 

[NTMBK]

An FPGA decoder would be less power efficient than a hardware block.

 

[Eug]

Furthermore, while the codec developers sometimes work in conjunction with the chip developers, they don't dictate what web developers use.

The last hardware video standard that was necessary was 1080 H.264 8-bit. It didn't matter that there were all sorts of other codecs or codec improvements available because nobody used them. Same goes for HEVC 10-bit. That's all that is going to be needed for the foreseeable future. HEVC 12-bit is totally irrelevant.

 

[VirtualLarry]

An FPGA decoder would be less power efficient than a hardware block.

But hardware blocks aren't as future-proof.

I'm not suggesting replacing existing and future hardware codec blocks with an FPGA block, but additionally including an FPGA block for "whatever", which could be used to implement accelerated support for codecs not envisioned or implemented at the time the processor was designed.

 

[Eug]

But hardware blocks aren't as future-proof.

I'm not suggesting replacing existing and future hardware codec blocks with an FPGA block, but additionally including an FPGA block for "whatever", which could be used to implement accelerated support for codecs not envisioned or implemented at the time the processor was designed.

I'm not sure I'd want this on a low power lower cost mobile chip.

 

[Eug]

I said earlier in this thread that I can wait for Cannonlake in 2018, if necessary. Well, now it seems like that won't be the case. For financial reasons, I may be forced to buy in the current fiscal year, which ends mid-2017. I can currently buy this stuff with pre-tax dollars, but I may no longer be able to do that past the current fiscal year.

Thus, it looks like I may have to buy my stuff by summer 2017, so that means purchasing a new laptop (MacBook/MBP) and new desktop (iMac) within the next 9 months.

I'm hoping for Kaby Lake.

I've been checking out the MacBooks, and it turns out I hate the keyboard. Furthermore, the machines just aren't that peppy. Actually they're fine for what I do, but you can still feel that they could be faster. That alone wouldn't be a deal killer, but the fact that I don't like the keyboard at all, and that I'm not enamoured with its trackpad either, means that the 12" MacBook probably won't be cards. That's too bad, since I otherwise adore its form factor.

So, now I'm looking more toward the MacBook Pro revamp, possibly coming as soon as fall 2016. I could theoretically wait until spring for a 12" MacBook refresh, but I suspect I'll still hate the keyboard then. Will the MBP have Kaby Lake this fall? My reading of the rumour mill is that the answer is no, it will have Skylake. If that's the case, I probably won't buy that either. But despite the rumours saying that Kaby Lake for the MBP won't happen this year, I'm also reading that Kaby Lake U is coming very soon, so it's got me confused. I'm looking at getting a 13" MacBook Pro BTW.

What I'm most afraid of is Apple releasing a Skylake 13" MacBook Pro this month, and then skipping the late 2016/early 2017 Kaby Lake U launch, and then only releasing a Kaby Lake MacBook Pro in fall 2017, which wouldn't work with my timing. If that's the case I might just wait until 2018 after all, and eat the extra cost (since in 2018 I would not get any tax benefit buying then).