Educational Politics

[Corn]

Well Robert, I understand your concern about the cost of University.......but let me ask you a serious question: Why do you feel compelled to cover the entire cost of this education to your (then) adult daughter?

As a youngster, my parents sent me to a private non-denominational Christian junior and high school. They offered to pay for my college educaiton, but with one caveat; that I must attend a private Christian college.

I declined their offer.

Both my wife and I funded our own college educations, albeit using slightly different strategies: My wife qualified for several aid grants which I did not (due to my parents income) and supplemented the rest of her educational costs via student loans and went to a state university full time. I, on the other hand, funded the entire cost of my education up front without financing any of it. I moved out of the family home at 18, got my own place, took a full time job, and attended community college until I had saved enough $$ to attend a state university full time to earn my degree.

While I would, and do, plan on assisting in the educational endeavours of any offspring (that I hope to have, still trying...) I don't feel it necessary to provide a car and "incidentals"--ain't gonna happen. Hopefully my kid(s?) follow my example and own their own cars before graduating HS if they want a car in college. Funny, when I attended university I was the only one of my roommates who had his own car, yet I was the only one of my roommates who paid for his own education......

As far as "incidentals" goes, well that's why part-time employment was created.

My kid is probably gonna hate me. Alas, I wasn't all too thrilled with my parent's requisite either......but 20 years later I've come to the realization that I've always been somewhat independent, this just helped cement the success of defining and understanding who I am. Hey, my mid-life crisis was over at 23, life's been gravy ever since.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: ElKevbo

Originally posted by: alchemize
Blame yourself for poor planning.

Poor answer (no pun intended). I can't speak for private schools, but most public schools have been raising tuition to account for lower levels of state funding. Our current legislators do not believe in funding higher education at the same levels as their predecessors. Whether that is good or bad is a separate discussion.

How many years between a child being born and going to college? These increases didn't all happen in the last few years. Why'd he retire before his child's educations were fully funded, with room to spare? Why is he invested in the stock market if he has upcoming withdrawls planned? Poor planning.

 

[Stunt]

Hell yeah for being canadian!!!

my friend's cousin was applying here from the states and my school is "ivy league", one of the best schools in north america.

i pay $7000 canadian for engineering
it's $4000 for arts students (english, economics, history, all that good stuff)

But...if you are not a canadian citizen, you have to pay well over $20,000

The funny thing is there are huge complaints about tuition fees in our country, so the fees will be dropping with government subsidies.

My whole university education will cost $60,000 including room, board, alcohol, entertainment, books, tuition = $44,000 US$

 

[chess9]

Stunt:

My daughter has mentioned McGill as a possibility. I"m assuming that would be about as difficult to get into as an American Ivy League school, no? It's also pretty expensive for foreign students. Right now, we think she can get into Brandeis, but probably won't score high enough for the Ivy League.

Corn:

Just call me old fashioned. Furthermore, my wife would kill me if I didn't support our last kid through college. Good for you, though. I like those kinds of stories-kids who know what they want and go out and get it. Keep up the good work.

Alky:

You don't have enough information to make that kind of comment. You are jumping to conclusions. But thanks for sharing. Anyway, I have two years before I have to start paying. Plenty of time. I can go back to work if I have to. I never expected tuition to rise this fast and this far. We have cushion, but not as much as I would like. I've been saving since I was 9 years old, by the way. I bought my first bike with the proceeds from my paper route. That's why I train so hard-I identify a bike with hard work.

Geecee:

Excellent posts. Mucho gracias, senor.

Dissipate: I put that into my documents file and will read it later. Is that THE Andrew Young, or just some run of the mill Andrew Young?


Regarding public vs. private school educations I'd generally agree that you CAN get as good an education at a public university as you can at one of the toney private schools, IF you don't mind taking Freshman English with 200 other people, by way of example. For my daughter, who is very much a one on one kind of kid, I don't think she'd be happy with such large classes. (She's very shy and introspective and does better in small settings.) And, there are other perks. For instance, graduate school is much more likely after a private school education, and we have no doubt our daughter is headed that way. And, then there are the special people one meets at private schools, both in terms of faculty and students. Say what you will, but having rich and connected friends is not a liability. (I put very little emphasis on this, but not my wife who has been well-connected for 30 years and thinks it might be the most important reason for a private education.)

-Robert

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Siddhartha

Originally posted by: alchemize
Blame yourself for poor planning.

Affordable education that is available to all is a liberal ideal. The liberals are not in power.

then why do the liberal elitists that run the colleges keep raising tuition?

Yeah, and why do those liberal elitists keep raising gas prices, raping my grandmother and toliet papering my house? God damn liberals.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Hell yeah for being canadian!!!

my friend's cousin was applying here from the states and my school is "ivy league", one of the best schools in north america.

i pay $7000 canadian for engineering
it's $4000 for arts students (english, economics, history, all that good stuff)

But...if you are not a canadian citizen, you have to pay well over $20,000

The funny thing is there are huge complaints about tuition fees in our country, so the fees will be dropping with government subsidies.

My whole university education will cost $60,000 including room, board, alcohol, entertainment, books, tuition = $44,000 US$

I'm pretty sure that if you go to a public school in the US, you wouldn't be paying $44k... $44k for a public school is a lot. I paid much less than that and went to an extremely expensive top 20 private school. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's really expensive for a public school.

 

[Corn]

I bought my first bike with the proceeds from my paper route.

That's how I bought my first car. Well, I think a few mowed lawns also went into the car fund as well.

Funny story about that car. It was a 1973 Buick Riviera that I bought from my Dad's best friend when I was 15. My pops was quite upset when he found out his friend sold this car as he also fancied it. My dad's friend didn't let on that I had bought it, and I stored it for nearly a year at a friends house whose dad was quite handy with the wrenches. When my 16th birthday finally arrived and I was able to drive legally, I brought the car home much to the suprise of my mom, who told me my dad was planning on giving me the family car (a rusted out 1971 Ford Galaxie 500) as a birthday present.

My dad wasn't amused (I think he's still angry about that car).

That car was waaaaay too cool for a dork like me. That was back in 1982, damn I miss that car (and my teenage years).........

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: lozina
Not exactly, Mr. Bias.

Was it a liberal who created a new bureau for homeland security?

historically speaking, which party has created more useless and bloated bureaucracy? Hint: go back in time about 70 years.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: Corn

I bought my first bike with the proceeds from my paper route.

That's how I bought my first car. Well, I think a few mowed lawns also went into the car fund as well.

Funny story about that car. It was a 1973 Buick Riviera that I bought from my Dad's best friend when I was 15. My pops was quite upset when he found out his friend sold this car as he also fancied it. My dad's friend didn't let on that I had bought it, and I stored it for nearly a year at a friends house whose dad was quite handy with the wrenches. When my 16th birthday finally arrived and I was able to drive legally, I brought the car home much to the suprise of my mom, who told me my dad was planning on giving me the family car (a rusted out 1971 Ford Galaxie 500) as a birthday present.

My dad wasn't amused (I think he's still angry about that car).

That car was waaaaay too cool for a dork like me. That was back in 1982, damn I miss that car (and my teenage years).........

the riviera was the one that looked like it had a mind '60s Corvette's ass, right?

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: lozina
Not exactly, Mr. Bias.

Was it a liberal who created a new bureau for homeland security?

historically speaking, which party has created more useless and bloated bureaucracy? Hint: go back in time about 70 years.

What, you talking about social security? 75% of Republican Senators voted yes, 81% of House Republicans voted yes.

But yeah you're right on that one, sure is a bloated and useless to me. My Libertarian side would like to see SS go to the dumpster finally. However I'm sure you will find quite a vocal group who will defend their SS with their teeth and nails.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Corn

I bought my first bike with the proceeds from my paper route.

That's how I bought my first car. Well, I think a few mowed lawns also went into the car fund as well.

Funny story about that car. It was a 1973 Buick Riviera that I bought from my Dad's best friend when I was 15. My pops was quite upset when he found out his friend sold this car as he also fancied it. My dad's friend didn't let on that I had bought it, and I stored it for nearly a year at a friends house whose dad was quite handy with the wrenches. When my 16th birthday finally arrived and I was able to drive legally, I brought the car home much to the suprise of my mom, who told me my dad was planning on giving me the family car (a rusted out 1971 Ford Galaxie 500) as a birthday present.

My dad wasn't amused (I think he's still angry about that car).

That car was waaaaay too cool for a dork like me. That was back in 1982, damn I miss that car (and my teenage years).........

the riviera was the one that looked like it had a mind '60s Corvette's ass, right?

Sorta in a round about way. It was referred to as the "boat tail".
A pic of an example.

 

[sMiLeYz]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Edge3D
You must understand that President Bush has had to deal with the recession Clinton left us with (thanks, pal

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

It's all Clinton's fault!!!



Wow.


And the dot-com bust had nothing to do with it? The fiscal surpluses in the last 4 years of Clinton's term were bad things?

there was no Clinton recession, it's just a flat-out lie

 

[chess9]

Corn:

Bwuahahahaha! Well, at least your dad had planned on giving you something!

My dad told me if I was going to have a car, then I was buying it. I bought a 1953 Ford with my savings from working at Pic-n-Pay Supermarkets. It wasn't fancy, but it did the job. I wanted a 1957 Chevy Bel-Aire (the bronze one) but it was about $1600 and my old man didn't believe in financing ANYTHING, so I didn't get it. I think I"m still mad about that. Maybe I'll throw tomatos on his grave the next time I go.

-Robert

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Edge3D
You must understand that President Bush has had to deal with the recession Clinton left us with (thanks, pal

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

It's all Clinton's fault!!!



Wow.


And the dot-com bust had nothing to do with it? The fiscal surpluses in the last 4 years of Clinton's term were bad things?

there was no Clinton recession, it's just a flat-out lie

Instead of using the accepted start date of March 2001, the CEA announced that the recession really started in the fourth quarter of 2000 ? a shift that would make it much more credible for the Bush administration to term it the "Clinton Recession."

ouch, thanks for the link

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: chess9
Corn:

Bwuahahahaha! Well, at least your dad had planned on giving you something!

My dad told me if I was going to have a car, then I was buying it. I bought a 1953 Ford with my savings from working at Pic-n-Pay Supermarkets. It wasn't fancy, but it did the job. I wanted a 1957 Chevy Bel-Aire (the bronze one) but it was about $1600 and my old man didn't believe in financing ANYTHING, so I didn't get it. I think I"m still mad about that. Maybe I'll throw tomatos on his grave the next time I go.

-Robert

My dad asked to borrower my car at least a dozen times for "date night" with my mom. I only had one rule: no parking!!!! ewwwww!!!! :Q

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Stunt
Hell yeah for being canadian!!!

my friend's cousin was applying here from the states and my school is "ivy league", one of the best schools in north america.

i pay $7000 canadian for engineering
it's $4000 for arts students (english, economics, history, all that good stuff)

But...if you are not a canadian citizen, you have to pay well over $20,000

The funny thing is there are huge complaints about tuition fees in our country, so the fees will be dropping with government subsidies.

My whole university education will cost $60,000 including room, board, alcohol, entertainment, books, tuition = $44,000 US$

I'm pretty sure that if you go to a public school in the US, you wouldn't be paying $44k... $44k for a public school is a lot. I paid much less than that and went to an extremely expensive top 20 private school. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's really expensive for a public school.

Ugh...i am talking about UNIVERSITY, post secondary education.
a bachelors of mechanical engineering

My tuition is $7000 can$ per year.
$44000 was for 4 YEARS of <room, board, alcohol, entertainment, books, tuition>

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Stunt
Hell yeah for being canadian!!!

my friend's cousin was applying here from the states and my school is "ivy league", one of the best schools in north america.

i pay $7000 canadian for engineering
it's $4000 for arts students (english, economics, history, all that good stuff)

But...if you are not a canadian citizen, you have to pay well over $20,000

The funny thing is there are huge complaints about tuition fees in our country, so the fees will be dropping with government subsidies.

My whole university education will cost $60,000 including room, board, alcohol, entertainment, books, tuition = $44,000 US$

I'm pretty sure that if you go to a public school in the US, you wouldn't be paying $44k... $44k for a public school is a lot. I paid much less than that and went to an extremely expensive top 20 private school. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's really expensive for a public school.

Ugh...i am talking about UNIVERSITY, post secondary education.
a bachelors of mechanical engineering

My tuition is $7000 can$ per year.
$44000 was for 4 YEARS of <room, board, alcohol, entertainment, books, tuition>

Um, same here. What did you think I was talking about?

These $30-$40k figures quoted are for private schools, some of the top institutions in the world. Most public schools don't even get close to $30k+ a year (probably none of them)

 

[Stunt]

My daughter has mentioned McGill as a possibility. I"m assuming that would be about as difficult to get into as an American Ivy League school, no? It's also pretty expensive for foreign students. Right now, we think she can get into Brandeis, but probably won't score high enough for the Ivy League.

McGill has a great US reputation, but in terms of business education quality it would rank behind:
1) Queen's University : Ranked number one in the country for 3 years now?
2) University of Western Ontario (aka 'Western'): Richard Ivy School of Business is here.
3) University of Toronto: Huge money to spend on profs/facilities

McGill is a great school though, Montreal is a great city.
My point is the reputation is overrated, well... actually the other schools are underrated in the US.

My school is Queen's University, and i take Queen's School of Business classes in my program, well organized and challenging.

Again, Commerce here is $20,000+ just for tuition. Great Education though, if you can get in.
Our university has rankigns for all the highschools it accepts from.
They track what the acceptance mark is of past applicants and how they fair in university.

ie. If i apply with a 95% and i have an 80% average now, and my classmate had a 90% to get in and has an 80% now, his high school was better than mine.

There are some situations where an 80% student will get in over a 85%+ student out of university.
Most of the programs at Queen's u need a 90-95% to get in.

The averages out of highschool are mid 60's. So that'll give you a benchmark.

My dad's boss in texas who's daughter went to some wicked private school came out of highschool with a 100%+ average (one of the top marks in her school). Came up here looked at my grade 11 math and didnt have a clue about it after taking the most advanced classes at the school. No idea where she went to school down there but her dad made $400+ US ... so it must have been good.

They'll probably make your daughter take some standardizing tests. The Canadian School system is competitive at the high end which your daughter is looking into but is pretty flexable.

It is cheaper than US schools but scholarships here are really hard to come by. Max $1000 a year, unless you are a genius, like smartest person in the country.

I actually heard that there was a 15 yr old accepted to my school this past year. Not bad considering his classmates were 19...doogie howser anyone?....heh

 

[Stunt]

Um, same here. What did you think I was talking about?

These $30-$40k figures quoted are for private schools, some of the top institutions in the world. Most public schools don't even get close to $30k+ a year (probably none of them)

What makes a school private?
Because anyone is allowed to apply to any post secondary school in the country.
Our schools are competitive with all american institutions...Here this report shows how competitive canada's public schools are.

For Eng Phys:
1 Princeton 4.82
2 Cornell 4.77
3 QUEEN'S 4.70 Canadian!
4 McMASTER 4.65 Canadian!

For Elec Eng
1 M.I.T. 4.92
2 Stanford 4.91
3 California-Berkeley 4.88
4 Illinois 4.86
4 TORONTO 4.86 Canadian!
5 UCLA 4.82
5 McGill 4.82 Canadian!
6 Cornell 4.81
6 British Columbia 4.81 Canadian!
7 McMASTER 4.80 Canadian!

You get the idea...

 

[Stunt]

FYI the Gourman Report is highly respected and

"Jack Gourman, Ph.D., has been preparing assessments of education for over thirty years. He is a former professor of political science and is now an educational consultant to several major corporations, institutions, and government agencies."Gourman Report

 

[RabidMongoose]

Stunt, can you post the link to the report? I don't think that you linked it correctly. I want to see the criteria since a school like Caltech isn't ranked in EE for the top ten when I consider it better than some of these schools.

Anyone can apply to a private or public school. UCLA, UC Berkeley, Illinois, GA Tech, etc. are public schools. You pay less if you're in-state because the state also funds them. Harvard, MIT, Stanford, etc. are private schools.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Um, same here. What did you think I was talking about?

These $30-$40k figures quoted are for private schools, some of the top institutions in the world. Most public schools don't even get close to $30k+ a year (probably none of them)

What makes a school private?
Because anyone is allowed to apply to any post secondary school in the country.
Our schools are competitive with all american institutions...<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://Um, same here. What did you think I was talking about?">Here]http://<blockquot">quote:
[HR</a> this report shows how competitive canada's public schools are.

For Eng Phys:
1 Princeton 4.82
2 Cornell 4.77
3 QUEEN'S 4.70 Canadian!
4 McMASTER 4.65 Canadian!

For Elec Eng
1 M.I.T. 4.92
2 Stanford 4.91
3 California-Berkeley 4.88
4 Illinois 4.86
4 TORONTO 4.86 Canadian!
5 UCLA 4.82
5 McGill 4.82 Canadian!
6 Cornell 4.81
6 British Columbia 4.81 Canadian!
7 McMASTER 4.80 Canadian!

You get the idea...

I'm not bashing Canadian schools. Even though I highly doubt those rankings. can you fix your link? Are they from the Grouman report? If so, that's pretty controversial because of its bias towards large schools and its refusal to reveal ranking methodology. That's like picking the EU commissioned survey performed by the Chinese which found that the US completely dominates the top 100 worldwide rankings (the top Canadian school was Univ. of Toronto @ 23). Even US news has some supposed bias.

Anyone can apply to a private school.

 

[Stunt]

Link fixed...but to remind you, it is a published report with much research, and only snippits of the report are available online as it is copyright material.

It is the best ranking system produced to date, and the criteria are not well known but widely accepted by academia in the US.
It is a US produced report.

 

[Stunt]

Also, remember that these are for selected programs. Overall U of T at number 23 is low i think, but even if true, it is the average of all offered programs.
That's why you much look at a per program basis. It is very well knownt that different institution are better in different areas.
ie. you wouldnt go to MIT for english.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Link fixed...but to remind you, it is a published report with much research, and only snippits of the report are available online as it is copyright material.

It is the best ranking system produced to date, and the criteria are not well known but widely accepted by academia in the US.
It is a US produced report.

Well, I don't agree with all of it. Where's Caltlech? It's one of the most elite univeresities in the world, but it's small and tiny. Most private schools are small, but public schools are large. I don't think it's the best ranking system if its ranking criteria is not known. I have a problem with this Gourman report because of the lack of Caltech, Georgia Tech (which is large), etc.

Where it is produced shouldn't matter. Even US News which ranks US institutions is biased because it considers overall research spending, so small schools are at a disadvantage, but Caltech still manages to rank well but deserves better.