EETimes: TSMC starts FinFETs in 2013, tries EUV at 10 nm

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
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TSMC starts FinFETs in 2013, tries EUV at 10 nm

Facing heated competition from Globalfoundries and Samsung, TSMC pulled in plans for initial production of its 16-nm FinFET process to the end of 2013. In addition, it hopes to adopt extreme ultraviolet lithography to make 10-nm chips starting in late 2015 but is still researching e-beam as an alternative.

It is a huge article by EETimes standards, 6pages. Lots of cool tidbits released in there including talk of 10nm and 7nm.

Also take a look at this person holding a 450mm wafer, it dwarfs the 300mm wafer (which itself is a huge wafer in its own right).

 

Homeles

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2011
2,580
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Wake me up when we get 675mm wafers.

Just kidding.

I like how it states "heated competition" from GloFo and Samsung. GloFo is a total joke, and Samsung just had Apple jump over to TSMC.

Competition won't be heating up -- it's cooling down.
 

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
275
126
Wake me up when we get 675mm wafers.

Just kidding.

I like how it states "heated competition" from GloFo and Samsung. GloFo is a total joke, and Samsung just had Apple jump over to TSMC.

Competition won't be heating up -- it's cooling down.

intel wants more consumers too
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
High volume 20nm in 2014, but FinFET in 2013?

What are these guys smoking?

You have to pay attention to just what Sun says. The silly nonsense stuff comes from anonymous TSMC marketing heads, but Sun talks sense and he is quoted often in the article. Ignore the PR, look at what Sun says the timeline is. His is believable.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
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High volume 20nm in 2014, but FinFET in 2013?

What are these guys smoking?

The title just says starts FinFETs. I don't know what that implies to you, but to me the recently taped out Cortex-A57 should already qualify as passing the starting point. There is of course a tremendous gap between first tape-outs and high volume production..
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
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It is a huge article by EETimes standards, 6pages. Lots of cool tidbits released in there including talk of 10nm and 7nm.

Nice article IDC. The first thing that caught my attention is the remark from Chang about the Moore's law:

“Moore’s Law is going to go on and we will be there -- if anyone pursues it, we will pursue it”

It's a stark contrast with a subpar company we know, isn't it?

And this:

"By 2017 he predicts the Taiwan foundry will be making as many 20-nm chips as it 28-nm ones. He claims the node will offer a 1.9x increase in gate-level density over the high-performance 28-nm node, although some speculate rival Globalfoundries will only deliver a 16 percent density increase at 20 nm."

Globalfoundries did screw their 20nm process. Screwed big time. No wonder AMD wants to stay out of the bleeding edge. GLF bleeding edge is rusty.

=====================================

What was really unexpected to me, is that it seems that they got a virtual monopoly of 28nm parts. Even when preparing to ramp up 20nm and get a huge customer like Apple, they are still aggressively adding 28nm capacity. And they expect 20nm to take over 28nm only in 2017.

It will be interesting to follow the small boys in the node business, UMC, SMIC, it doesn't seem that they will have an easy time in getting 28nm leftovers, as there isn't any leftovers to get in the first place.

TSMC balance sheet is essentially clean, they financed their current expansion so far with cash flows and cash reserves, but given the new commitments they announced, 9 billion, they should get some debt by the end of the year.
 

SocketF

Senior member
Jun 2, 2006
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The title just says starts FinFETs. I don't know what that implies to you, but to me the recently taped out Cortex-A57 should already qualify as passing the starting point. There is of course a tremendous gap between first tape-outs and high volume production..
The original meaning of tape-out is that the design for a specific process is finished and that was sent on magnetic tapes to the FABs, hence the name "tape out".
Nowadays however, that word is used in all various contexts, the worst thing I red was, that TSMC "taped out" a manufacturing process. So there are (to my knowledge) the following meanings:

a) traditional tape out (design is ready for a specific process aka "implementation")

b) first chips come back from a fab (a better word for that would be something like "wafer out", but of course that word is not existing)

c) A specific manufacturing process is ready for production.

Lots of room for confusion imo. 3 people may talk about tape out and mean 3 different things without recognizing it.

In the current discussion, I would say that A57's tapeout mean case a). The implementation is ready now. But it doesnt say anything about the state of the manufacturing process. Sun now stated in the EETimes article that they will start End of 2013, that is then the date for case c). "Tape out" according to case b) will be sometime in the beginning of 2014.

@IDC:
Please correct me, if I got something wrong, or if you know even more meanings of "tape out" :hmm:

"By 2017 he predicts the Taiwan foundry will be making as many 20-nm chips as it 28-nm ones. He claims the node will offer a 1.9x increase in gate-level density over the high-performance 28-nm node, although some speculate rival Globalfoundries will only deliver a 16 percent density increase at 20 nm."

Globalfoundries did screw their 20nm process. Screwed big time. No wonder AMD wants to stay out of the bleeding edge. GLF bleeding edge is rusty.
Hmm well ... These numbers seem huge, but still I want to know their current desities. All I know is that GF advertised their 28nm gate-first process to save ~20% of die-space compared to TSMC's gate-last. So if both foundries switch to 20nm, it would be only natural, that GF's scaling would be worse.

However, I agree that 1.9x and 1.16x is a rather huge difference. Even if we include the 20% GLast<>GFirst difference, TSMC would still have a big advantage at 20nm. I really wonder if this information is true. Maybe GF's founder would say the same just the other way round?

But I agree that bad news of GF are mostly also the real news :twisted:
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
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Most probably its 1.6x times and not 16%. At 16% higher density for a full node process you don&#8217;t even consider that node and you jump to the next. [FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]
 

lagokc

Senior member
Mar 27, 2013
808
1
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...and I thought 4" wafers were a pain in the ass to work with. It's like my nightmares involving a giant vacuum wand have come real.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
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Most probably its 1.6x times and not 16%. At 16% higher density for a full node process you don&#8217;t even consider that node and you jump to the next. [FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]

No, it is certainly not 1.6x. GloFo didn't get a reduction in gate contact pitch with their 20nm process. It's really not a shrink at all, more of a tuning of 28nm.
 
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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
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91
What was really unexpected to me, is that it seems that they got a virtual monopoly of 28nm parts. Even when preparing to ramp up 20nm and get a huge customer like Apple, they are still aggressively adding 28nm capacity. And they expect 20nm to take over 28nm only in 2017.

It will be interesting to follow the small boys in the node business, UMC, SMIC, it doesn't seem that they will have an easy time in getting 28nm leftovers, as there isn't any leftovers to get in the first place.

TSMC balance sheet is essentially clean, they financed their current expansion so far with cash flows and cash reserves, but given the new commitments they announced, 9 billion, they should get some debt by the end of the year.

I believe it is still too true this day, but I remember reading some 4 or 5 yrs ago that if you summed up all the profits ever made (as an entire industry) by foundries in the foundry business then you would find that TSMC's financials account for 100% of those profits. That every single other foundry that has ever come (and gone) into existence has only lost money overall trying to be a foundry.

The wild card there is that I don't know if Samsung finally broke that mold, if their recent foundry profits have finally overwhelmed their outstanding losses in the foundry division.

As for the little guys, they all fell behind at the exact same time for the exact same reason IMO. See up through the 65nm node we had a operating environment at TI in which we internally developed our nodes while simultaneously working hand-in-hand with three separate foundries to make sure there was ample capacity around the world for us to "launch with volume" on our mobile products.

This policy started sometime around the 0.18um node. What it meant was that the little guys, UMC, SMIC, Chartered, got to benefit from a behind the scenes push to get their nodes ready in a reasonably timely fashion. We'd intentionally transfer (our) technology to the lagging foundries to help them along when and as needed, TSMC included.

That model disintegrated at 45nm because that was the same node in which TI abandoned internal CMOS development (so we had no 45nm technology of our own to transfer to multiple foundries at will) and eliminated our policy of working with multiple foundries at the same node.

And what you saw with the foundries, all of them including TSMC, at 45nm was everyone took one big stumble. From my perspective it was expected because I knew for years how much TI was subsidizing the foundry world's node-development model. Kinda like welfare, it helped TI but prevented the foundries from every truly developing an independence.

TSMC grew up, so to speak, with 40nm (ergo all their ramp-to-volume teething issues) and are now fully independent for all the right reasons at 28nm (and it shows).

So what are the little guys doing now? Essentially theft, ala industrial espionage. Poaching key employees from TSMC for the purposes of extracting process knowledge. They do the same with vendors, they will buy a vendor's tool and process if the vendor can assure them it is similar to TSMC's BKM (best known method).

Samsung is the other foundry that has been rocking their process development efforts, they will give TSMC a run for its money.

@IDC:
Please correct me, if I got something wrong, or if you know even more meanings of "tape out" :hmm:

Close enough, you got the gist of it.

Technically speaking tape-out was the event in which the tapes were finished and were ready to be shipped to the mask shop (to make the reticles for the litho tools), a step that preceded anything being sent to the fab.

But your point still stands which is that taping out has little to do with process technology readiness. And the reality is so-called "sampling" also has little to do with process technology readiness because sampling just means you throw wafers at an existing mask set and pray you get one or two functioning chips out of the lot (24 wafers).

And it doesn't mean the lifetime reliability aspects are anywhere close to being finished. The two chips you get from the fab might have an expected lifetime of 30 days depending on the health of the node still under development at the time.

Hmm well ... These numbers seem huge, but still I want to know their current desities. All I know is that GF advertised their 28nm gate-first process to save ~20% of die-space compared to TSMC's gate-last. So if both foundries switch to 20nm, it would be only natural, that GF's scaling would be worse.

However, I agree that 1.9x and 1.16x is a rather huge difference. Even if we include the 20% GLast<>GFirst difference, TSMC would still have a big advantage at 20nm. I really wonder if this information is true. Maybe GF's founder would say the same just the other way round?
Yeah you have to be wary of news being brought to you by the competitor.

There is no way GloFo is targeting such poor density increases for 20nm over 28nm unless they are in crisis mode to do something about the growing timeline gap between them and TSMC.

What is more likely is that GloFo will work to deliver entitlement density increases but their 20nm won't be volume-ready until 18months after TSMC, same as 28nm.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
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No, it is certainly not 1.6x. GloFo didn't get a reduction in gate contact pitch with their 20nm process. It's really not a shrink at all, more of a tuning of 28nm.

The fact that GLF isn't advertising 20nm but going straight to 14XM, and AMD silence about 20nm SKUs are consistently coherent with this 1.16x screw up.
 

SocketF

Senior member
Jun 2, 2006
236
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@IDC:
Thanks.

TO the density discussion, I could only find this from GF:
What are the details and status of your 20nm technology?
We have a very competitive 20nm offering following right on the heels of 32/28nm. It has been well endorsed by the marketplace because it is the most comprehensive, cost-effective platform in the industry, delivering up to 40% performance improvement and twice the gate density of 28nm. Technology development is well underway and our Fab 8 in New York began running full-loop 20nm silicon in January. We have multiple active customer design activities with silicon delivery expected by 2H 2012.
http://www.globalfoundries.com/technology/14XM-FAQ.aspx

So we have one claim with 200% from the manufacturer and one with 116% from the competitor. I guess the truth is in between, probably around 160%
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
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Samsung is the other foundry that has been rocking their process development efforts, they will give TSMC a run for its money.

IDC, thanks for the detailed post.

I didn't know that TI such an impact in the foundry world, being essentially the R&D department of everybody out of the common platform and Intel. It's amazing that this alliance got much more consistent results but much less press releases than the IBM vaporware.

I can see now what STM was so desperately trying to do by licensing FDSOI process to GLF. With every single relevant player out there developing their own process node, GLF is their last chance in staying relevant in R&D node, because the rest of the guys isn't worth the effort. It also explains SOITEC grim statements on their financial results. All the relevant guys aren't going SOI and the rest cannot afford SOI.

But, about Samsung, do you think any of the relevant MPU companies will give Samsung a shot in manufacturing chips with them? After the Apple snafu, I doubt that anyone in the bleeding edge will put their designs there, and TSMC will have plenty of capacity for the lagging edge.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
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But, about Samsung, do you think any of the relevant MPU companies will give Samsung a shot in manufacturing chips with them? After the Apple snafu, I doubt that anyone in the bleeding edge will put their designs there, and TSMC will have plenty of capacity for the lagging edge.

Samsung will become what GloFo can only hope - "near" leading edge capacity on the cheap.

GloFo can only hope to become that because right now they have no credibility in being able to deliver their nodes on a competitive timeline.

Samsung will become this because they can deliver the nodes on a competitive timeline but they will only attract the kinds of customers that are standing on their last legs already - the customers who need very low prices and figure so what if Samsung liberally "borrows" from their IP because it is "do or die" for themselves anyways. Those customers have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

(wait a minute, did I just accidentally describe AMD? )
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
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Samsung will become this because they can deliver the nodes on a competitive timeline but they will only attract the kinds of customers that are standing on their last legs already - the customers who need very low prices and figure so what if Samsung liberally "borrows" from their IP because it is "do or die" for themselves anyways. Those customers have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Oh, I see what you are saying here. Regardless of Samsung reputation on the market, it is clear that they will be there with a node. You don't poach an entire MPU design team from AMD to manufacture processors at TSMC, and it wouldn't fit Samsung strategy of vertical integration. And open this node to unwilling sources of new IP wouldn't be anything bad at all. So while the bleeding edge will be TSMC's, the the sinking ships of the lagging edge might go for Samsung.

I cannot fail to notice the size of the opportunity GLF lost by screwing up their 28nm node. The market is longing for a competent competitor for TSMC, and one that won't steal your IP like Samsung, and yet nobody

(wait a minute, did I just accidentally describe AMD? )

No, you didn't. If you were to describe AMD, it would be " customers who need very low prices figure and tied to take-or-pay contracts with subpar foundries, ..."

 

Imouto

Golden Member
Jul 6, 2011
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The main difference here for Samsung is that it is a IDM while every other top 10 (except IBM at pos 10 and Samsung sales are 10 times higher) is a Pure-play.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,193
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The one thing I have never understood about the AMD/GloFo exclusivity contract is, at what point does GloFo failing to deliver on promises excuse AMD from the contractual obligation?

It must be a very good contract because they haven't gotten to tear it up yet. I see that contract as a major hurdle that is severely hindering AMD's efforts at a comeback.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
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The one thing I have never understood about the AMD/GloFo exclusivity contract is, at what point does GloFo failing to deliver on promises excuse AMD from the contractual obligation?

It must be a very good contract because they haven't gotten to tear it up yet. I see that contract as a major hurdle that is severely hindering AMD's efforts at a comeback.

I can't believe they would have signed a contract that did not have "out" clauses like that...but the reality is that they must not have a contract with any such clauses given that AMD invested 3 yrs (3 years!!!!) of R&D monies into developing Wichita (bobcat shrink for 28nm GloFo process) and they scrapped it entirely because GloFo was so far behind schedule for 28nm...only to then have to pay GloFo for an exclusivity waiver to be able to produce Hondo (40nm bobcat 2.0, crisis-design) at TSMC.

And I also cannot imagine, truly cannot imagine, how frustrated and aghast Rory must have been when he was fully informed of all that AMD had set itself up for with the contracts with GloFo...and obviously even we outsiders (and shareholders alike) have no idea how much of the secretive contracts are still hidden from us.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
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Technically speaking tape-out was the event in which the tapes were finished and were ready to be shipped to the mask shop (to make the reticles for the litho tools), a step that preceded anything being sent to the fab.

But your point still stands which is that taping out has little to do with process technology readiness. And the reality is so-called "sampling" also has little to do with process technology readiness because sampling just means you throw wafers at an existing mask set and pray you get one or two functioning chips out of the lot (24 wafers).

And it doesn't mean the lifetime reliability aspects are anywhere close to being finished. The two chips you get from the fab might have an expected lifetime of 30 days depending on the health of the node still under development at the time.

All of that is clear to me too, but at what point can you call someone a liar for saying that the fab has merely started a process? If the word tape-out is vague these days then "started" is even more vague..

I agree the press release by ARM and TSMC makes it sound like the design is ready for completion (scenario a), not that any wafers have been received. First wafers for sometime in 2013 does sound realistic, and no I don't take that to mean anything more than a very low yield, very sub-nominal operating conditions, chips not working for long, etc. And that none of this contradicts the statement made.
 
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