Electoral College - Why do we need it?

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Last night on the news "they are aiming for the 10% undecided voters in 14 key states".

So the rest of us are chopped liver? How about "one man, one vote"?

We might see more interest and voter turn out if we, in the non-battleground states, felt our vote counted. I might campaign, I might go door to door, but I won't because my state doesn't matter.

Does anyone want to see their canidate get more votes and still lose?
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
There use to be a good reason, WAY before TV, radio, etc...

But you are right to a degree. Bush will not show up in Mass. juts like Kerry will not show up in Texas. So if 50.1% vote for A and 49.9% vote for B, then ALL the 49.9% people's votes are tossed away as they don;t REALLY count now.


We need to just go to a straight 1 person = 1 vote. Bush would show up in CA way more just as kerry would show up in Texas a lot more.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
We need it because if we don't have it then Bush would probably not win the election.

What are you guys, Communists?
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There use to be a good reason, WAY before TV, radio, etc...

That argument works both ways. If we did away with the electoral college system then the candidates could stop focusing on 14 states and instead focus on 5 or 6 and let technology do the rest.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
It was a question - not a total condemnation.

It makes sense with slow communication, and the sheer difficulty of counting millions of ballots all by hand, to split things up and essentially create block voting.

It *could* be done differently today, and maybe it should be, but the question was 'why do we need it' and the answer is 'because at the time it was hte best way to do things'.
 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
3,176
0
0
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There use to be a good reason, WAY before TV, radio, etc...

That argument works both ways. If we did away with the electoral college system then the candidates could stop focusing on 14 states and instead focus on 5 or 6 and let technology do the rest.

Right, they would focus on the 5 or 6 states WHERE ALL THE FVCKING PEOPLE LIVE!
 

InfectedMushroom

Golden Member
Aug 15, 2001
1,064
0
0
I put the same question up for discussion more than a year ago and was met with shouts of "why change something that has worked for 200 years".

My view is that change is needed and should be encouraged. Today, we all have access to much better sources of information than 200+ years ago.
I would give the candidates free air time (no more need to raise funds for add campaigns) and get rid of the electoral college. That way each vote will really count.
 

ParStyles

Member
Aug 28, 2001
79
1
66
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There use to be a good reason, WAY before TV, radio, etc...

But you are right to a degree. Bush will not show up in Mass. juts like Kerry will not show up in Texas. So if 50.1% vote for A and 49.9% vote for B, then ALL the 49.9% people's votes are tossed away as they don;t REALLY count now.

by that logic it seems to me that all votes all the losing side are tossed away
 

joshw10

Senior member
Feb 16, 2004
806
0
0
What's wrong with "focusing on 5 or 6 states". With no electoral college you dont have to focus on "states". You just go whereever you can get a big audience, have a rally, and it gets on TV and in the papers. Voters no longer have to see you or know you were in their state to vote for you.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
This really has nothing to do with anyone's ability to gain access to candidate info. It is a states' rights issue. Nothing more or less.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Originally posted by: ParStyles
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There use to be a good reason, WAY before TV, radio, etc...

But you are right to a degree. Bush will not show up in Mass. juts like Kerry will not show up in Texas. So if 50.1% vote for A and 49.9% vote for B, then ALL the 49.9% people's votes are tossed away as they don;t REALLY count now.

by that logic it seems to me that all votes all the losing side are tossed away



For the election they are.


The votes in Texas, when bush wins texas, will not help Kerry win. Juts like the votes in Mass., when kerry wins Mass., will not help Bush win.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Electoral College - Why do we need it?

We don't, but then again it's not hurting anything either. It's a moot point to me, so long as we have a system for determining who wins it doesn't really matter to me what system that is. A good comparison would be determining the winner of a sports event. In the NFL, it doesn't matter how many yards of offense you generate more than the other team, if you don't score more points you lose. Likewise, total popular votes don't matter in direct way, because that's not how we keep score.

Now admittedly, the electoral college is a strange system. To use our NFL example above, it's as if the final score doesn't count, only that you outscore your opponent in a majority of the playing periods. You score 40 points in the first quarter and none thereafter, but your opponent kicks a field goal in each of the other 3 quarters, he wins. That's a bit of an odd way to run a railroad, but that's the current rules. If you want to change the rules (in this case, it would require a Constitutional amendment) so that the popular vote is what counts, that's fine with me. As long as the rules are clear and decided in advance I think we can accomodate whatever system you care to dream up.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: joshw10
What's wrong with "focusing on 5 or 6 states". With no electoral college you dont have to focus on "states". You just go whereever you can get a big audience, have a rally, and it gets on TV and in the papers. Voters no longer have to see you or know you were in their state to vote for you.
What's the current ratio of urban to rural population?
 

1cito

Senior member
May 26, 2001
324
0
76
Originally posted by: glenn1
Electoral College - Why do we need it?

We don't, but then again it's not hurting anything either. It's a moot point to me, so long as we have a system for determining who wins it doesn't really matter to me what system that is. A good comparison would be determining the winner of a sports event. In the NFL, it doesn't matter how many yards of offense you generate more than the other team, if you don't score more points you lose. Likewise, total popular votes don't matter in direct way, because that's not how we keep score.

Now admittedly, the electoral college is a strange system. To use our NFL example above, it's as if the final score doesn't count, only that you outscore your opponent in a majority of the playing periods. You score 40 points in the first quarter and none thereafter, but your opponent kicks a field goal in each of the other 3 quarters, he wins. That's a bit of an odd way to run a railroad, but that's the current rules. If you want to change the rules (in this case, it would require a Constitutional amendment) so that the popular vote is what counts, that's fine with me. As long as the rules are clear and decided in advance I think we can accomodate whatever system you care to dream up.

Very nicely put. :beer: People will always find something to bitch at. Its a fair system (not perfect) and it works. We need to concentrate matters on other important things.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
The wisdom was and is appropriate. We are a Republic of States. IF most all the folks lived in New York then the president would be a New Yorker whether by popular or state selection. The House is this way too - proportional. But, that ain't where the folks live.
Consider this..
NY with lets say 5 million voting people vs Cal with 6 million... NY with 35 electors (based on population not voters) and Cal 40 and a third state... Confusion has 6 electors with 1.5 million voting.

NY and Confusion can elect the president with 3.25 million plus 2 votes while Cal where everyone loves the opposite party would have cast all 6 million votes and 40 electors to the loser.
The loser would have gotten 9.25 million less 2 votes and the winner only 3.25 million plus 2.

Of course my example has only 3 states... but, I think the theory holds..

Hope my math is right.. hehehehehe
 

csf

Banned
Aug 5, 2001
319
0
0
If it were abolished, only a handful of urban areas would decide the outcome for the entire nation. It's interesting to check out a map of how the nation's different regions as a whole voted; while Gore won the popular vote, Bush won a solid majority of states for instance. Obviously geographical distribution alone should not decide an election, but calling for the abolition of the electoral college expresses a total misunderstanding of how the country was designed as a republic of individual states rather than a single, centrally ruled landmass. It's the same reason we have the Senate.

People complain about the value of their individual votes, but as a whole it balances out. A person in Wyoming may have his vote count more than a person from California, but then again the person from Wyoming only really has 3 electoral votes at stake on the outcome of his state's vote. The person from California may not make as much of a statistical difference within his own state, but he does have influence over where 55 electoral votes go, which balances the difference in the individual worth of a vote cast by a resident of a smaller state.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Do you really want people in LA and NYC areas determining your fate for the next 4 years at time.

CA accounts for 10% of US population - LA county is 35% of that (10 Mil)
NY accounts for 8% of US population
FL accounts for 8% of US population - South Fla is 33% of that (5 Mil)
TX accounts for 9% of US population

The Rust Belt States (PA/OH/MI/IL) account for about 5% each => 20%


8 States control half the available votes

Without the electoral college, the candidates could ignore 75% of the states and concentrate on these states


Census 2000 has an 80/20 split for urban vs rual
 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
3,176
0
0
Why does it matter where people live? It seems to me Republicans are the most supportive of the Electoral College, rural areas tend to vote republican and urban areas democrat, and the argument for the Electoral College is urban voters would determine every election. Do Republicans think without the Electoral College they would have no hope of winning the Presidency? I don't think that is true. Just look at how close the popular vote was in 2000. Also, wouldn't every vote actually counting mean more people would feel empowered and vote, so the true wishes of the people would be fulfilled.
 
Jul 23, 2004
42
0
0
The electoral college was designed by Hamilton as a way to make sure that the masses would never get the ability to elect the president. That the "informed" people of the country would pick a president who is good for the country as opposed to a popular one, afraid that you would get the "bread and circus" effect if people were able to directly vote. That was sound logic back in the early 1800's, but not now in my opinion.

CSF: Why not then do what I believe Maine does, as well as a few other states, and divide up the electoral college votes based on the percentage of voters for each candidate. If State X is worth 10 votes, kerry gets 60% and bush gets 40%, then kerry gets 6 votes and bush gets 4 votes. The "campaigning" towards urban areas doesn't quite work in practicality as well as it does in theory, because a great majority of people will vote for their "side" regardless, and, you can't please everyone. There will be plenty of urban people who vote for Bush, and plenty of country people who'll vote for Kerry, regardless of campaigning. They say 87% of the population already has their mind made up over who they want to vote for in this current election.

Bush won more states because he campaigned towards the rural areas, doing PRECISELY what you are arguing against. In the end, campaigning towards rural areas and urban areas will always happen. You don't see Bush going near many urban areas, do you? Or Kerry hitting many rural areas?

I say, popular vote should decide. Electoral college is, by the definition of the creator, a way to make sure that a true democracy is never created, that we, the people, will never actually be able to elect our president.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Do you really want people in LA and NYC areas determining your fate for the next 4 years at time.

CA accounts for 10% of US population - LA county is 35% of that (10 Mil)
NY accounts for 8% of US population
FL accounts for 8% of US population - South Fla is 33% of that (5 Mil)
TX accounts for 9% of US population

The Rust Belt States (PA/OH/MI/IL) account for about 5% each => 20%


8 States control half the available votes

Without the electoral college, the candidates could ignore 75% of the states and concentrate on these states


Census 2000 has an 80/20 split for urban vs rual
You assume that everybody in those states would vote the same.
 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
3,176
0
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Do you really want people in LA and NYC areas determining your fate for the next 4 years at time.

CA accounts for 10% of US population - LA county is 35% of that (10 Mil)
NY accounts for 8% of US population
FL accounts for 8% of US population - South Fla is 33% of that (5 Mil)
TX accounts for 9% of US population

The Rust Belt States (PA/OH/MI/IL) account for about 5% each => 20%


8 States control half the available votes

Without the electoral college, the candidates could ignore 75% of the states and concentrate on these states


Census 2000 has an 80/20 split for urban vs rual

Why would a candidate ignore any state? That is the beauty of a popular vote, EVERYONE ACTUALLY MATTERS. If there was a popular vote, would Bush spend all his time in the inner cities because that is where the population density is high? Of course not, he would concentrate on the where he could win, knowing that a lot of city folk will vote for him anyways.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
If it were abolished, only a handful of urban areas would decide the outcome for the entire nation.

You mean a majority would decide the outcome? What difference does where we live matter, we should all get an eqaully weighted vote. I'm sorry, a guy at a farm in small state is not more important than a guy in NYC. One man, one vote. What are you scared of?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Do you really want people in LA and NYC areas determining your fate for the next 4 years at time.

CA accounts for 10% of US population - LA county is 35% of that (10 Mil)
NY accounts for 8% of US population
FL accounts for 8% of US population - South Fla is 33% of that (5 Mil)
TX accounts for 9% of US population

The Rust Belt States (PA/OH/MI/IL) account for about 5% each => 20%


8 States control half the available votes

Without the electoral college, the candidates could ignore 75% of the states and concentrate on these states


Census 2000 has an 80/20 split for urban vs rual

The basis of our Nation was State Rights... each having its own rights under the US Constitution. That has eroded with the 14th and another but, as it did erode the other aspects did not.. Folks argue that the erosion that has occured to States Rights is a myth and only that which is Human Rights have been insured. Perhaps!
But, yes. If the voting by the States is such that the winner (Presidential) garners the majority of State's votes then those States should control.... LA, NYC, Chicago etc. have population centers and lots of folks. But, they live in different States... The entire issue is the way we have developed this Nation. States vs one giant State. We'd have no need for State Law etc... NO State rights... No.. I like it as is.
 
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