Electric car + solar panels FTW?

[disappoint]

Lifespan too short?

They don't last forever. The older technology panels used to last about 20 years. Newer ones maybe closer to 40 years before they have to be replaced.

 

[tortillasoup]

Sounds totally unrealistic.

To put this into perspective, 1 horsepower is 746 watts.
Newegg has a solar panel for sale that is $95 and charges at a rate of 15W.
Redlining a piece of shit 100HP Prius for 1 second consumes as much energy as that solar panel collects in 4973 seconds (that's more than an hour!). Even if you covered the entire car in solar panels and it cost more than a house to do it, the car would still suck. You'd need to charge it for hours before you could even go up your driveway.

Some of this is true and some of it is not.. Power is not just P=I*R.. it's also time.. A device may well consume 1000 watts but if it you run it for one minute (toaster), over the course of an hour, you'll have only consumed 16.66 watt hours.. Solar panels, most electric devices, your power meter (electric bill) are measured in watt hours. Nobody drives a Prius or any other vehicle at full tilt for hours at a time so the point about 100hp=lots of energy is moot. That 100hp in power usage is typically for a brief period of time. Let's try to remove any confusion of the whole HP = wattage thing.

What you really should be saying is how long will it take to charge the batteries in an electric car? Well the batteries in the leaf are rated at 24 kW·h. That's 24,000 watt hours. You can use 24 kilowatts for up to an hour or you can use 12 kilowatts for up to 2 hours, or 6 kilowatts for 4 hours, etc. etc. it all depends on how quickly you consume that power.. So anyway to the point about using solar panels to charge a solar powered car... To charge the batteries in a Nissan Leaf from dead to full charge on a typical home solar installation of 4kw, you would have to have 6 hours of perfect sun at the optimum angle (tracking) and with an ambient air temperature of 25C. A 4kw solar array is pretty expensive and so it is not economically feasible to use a solar array to charge your electric car.. However what you can do is get a special electric rate for your electric car which will give you discounted electric rates when you charge the car at night (off peak) and then with a solar array, give electricity back to the grid during peak hours. This arrangement is far more economical and beneficial than the scenario of using solar panels to charge your electric car. The worst time people could be charging their electric cars is during the day when energy demand is at its highest.

 

[Apex]

They don't last forever. The older technology panels used to last about 20 years. Newer ones maybe closer to 40 years before they have to be replaced.

In terms of an energy technology within the reach of consumers, that seems pretty long to me.

 

[halik]

Has anyone researched the numbers behind installing a solar panel system for the home and an electric car? Is this a recipe for never having to pay for fuel again?

a) Won't generate enough current to charge it up
b) Won't pay itself back for centuries

The problem with electric cars isn't the cost of the electricity, it's expensive batteries with low energy density and long charge times.

 

[disappoint]

In terms of an energy technology within the reach of consumers, that seems pretty long to me.

It's still cheaper to burn fossil fuels. By far.

 

[Engineer]

Solar panels are a non-starter. They are too costly, too inefficient, and their lifespan is too short. They are not feasible as an actual green technology, especially if you consider the energy cost to build them, which few people do.

Maybe something like this will eventually hit in mass production and be more of the ticket.

 

[DominionSeraph]

It's still cheaper to burn fossil fuels. By far.

Apex is looking at a 5 year break-even. Taking out his rebates and considering he's paying twice the national average for electricity, it would be 20 years to break even over using fossil fuel power, which is within the lifetime of these systems.

Considering gasoline now costs $0.12 per kWh, and electric cars are far more efficient, I think we're pretty close to the point where it would make economic sense for much of the sun belt to transition to solar/plug-in hybrid.

 

[Budmantom]

Apex is looking at a 5 year break-even. Taking out his rebates and considering he's paying twice the national average for electricity, it would be 20 years to break even over using fossil fuel power, which is within the lifetime of these systems.

Considering gasoline now costs $0.12 per kWh, and electric cars are far more efficient, I think we're pretty close to the point where it would make economic sense for much of the sun belt to transition to solar/plug-in hybrid.

I have a feeling that Apex and most others wouldn't have solar panels on their homes if the tax payers didn't pay for half.

20 years for a break even is way too long, most people buy a new home every 7 years.

 

[tortillasoup]

I have a feeling that Apex and most others wouldn't have solar panels on their homes if the tax payers didn't pay for half.

20 years for a break even is way too long, most people buy a new home every 7 years.

People with Solar PV systems typically are not paid $0.12 a kilowatt for their electricity they produce unless they're dumb and elect to go with flat rate electricity. Therefore the 20 year break even period that was mentioned is not correct.. Those with grid tied PV systems are usually placed on Time Of Use which either charges them or PAYS them far higher than the $0.12 per kilowatt that was quoted per kilowatt hour. Most people are only aware of flat rate electricity where you pay the same per kilowatt regardless of time of day. However to the power company, time of use is a far better indicator of the true cost of electricity and the ultimate goal of power companies is to have everyone on time of use. Since PV panels make the most electricity when demand is at its highest, they're a lot bigger help than they initially appear and so instead of them being worth only $0.12 a kilowatt, they can be worth up to $0.60 per kilowatt hour. The payback time with PV panels when used with Time of Use electric service and NO tax incentives is around 10 years. This is a major improvement over the payback period of these panels compared to 10 years ago.

 

[Pulsar]

If you don't mind numbers, look here to understand the efficiencies and inefficiencies of solar panels and their effect on the environment.
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/03/the-ugly-side-o.html

 

[Murloc]

Is this a recipe for never having to pay for fuel again?

no.
Even if you go solar, you'll have to buy electricity.

If you want to be green for real, start with a solar water-heating system combined with a heat pump or pellet or raw wood furnace (if you need to heat the house during the winter) and insulate your house if it isn't already.
Gas prices are still too low even in europe (where we pay more than twice the US price) to induce big changes.

 

[Apex]

Maybe something like this will eventually hit in mass production and be more of the ticket.

This, among other more recent technologies.

Perhaps the soonest to market product which will change solar costs is solar shingles. They are more expensive than normal roof shingles, but substantially cheaper than your traditional panels:

http://www.dowsolar.com/

Realistically, I should have waited for that. Those would have pushed the break even point well below the 5 year mark.

As mentioned above, whether something like this is worthwhile or not depends heavily on where you reside. Some places (ie. Texas) would be ideal for electricity production from solar panels, but the cost of electricity is very low. Other places (ie. NY) have very high electricity costs, but between the snow and the reduced hours of sunlight, production would be relatively low.

It's definitely not a solution for every situation.

Like every energy product, it's subsidized (either directly or indirectly). Yes, coal, natural gas, and oil are all subsidized. On the other hand, they're all pretty much taxed and restricted too. Yes, we pay the world price for a barrel of crude, but with no refineries built in the US since about 1976, much of the cost of a gallon of gas lies not with the producers.

In terms of solar cell aging, manufacturers tend to warranty cell performance for 20-30 years. However, the actual rate of degredation seems to be relatively low. There are a lot of folks with pretty old cells that test well:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/testing-thirty-year-old-photovoltaic-module

I'm honestly not too worried about the lifespan past 10-15 years or so, since it will have more than paid for itself by then and there should be newer, cheaper products out.

 

[DominionSeraph]

If you don't mind numbers, look here to understand the efficiencies and inefficiencies of solar panels and their effect on the environment.
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/03/the-ugly-side-o.html

Doesn't pass the sniff test.

Businesses pay a higher electrical rate than residential. Their other energy costs (transportation, etc) are going to be higher than electrical. Also, not all of the electrical generation comes from fossil fuel burning sources.
So, if the panel pays for itself within its lifespan at residential rates, how could its manufacture release near the same CO2?
For a $37k set of panels, I somehow doubt you're going to see that it cost the business $37k in energy to produce them. There's probably, you know, some labor in there as well. As well as room for profit.

Also they complain that in the future solar cells will be better for cheaper. Not if someone doesn't pay for that research and infrastructure.
Advancement is primarily driven by economics.

And they try to argue that it will make economic sense to replace functional panels that have already been paid for with new ones. They overlook that even if panels are replaced at one location, the old panels are still valuable. The market will set a price such that they are purchased. Non-solar homes will be able to get the cast-offs for cheap to become solar homes.
Functional panels are going to have a buyer as long as electricity costs money.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

People need to change their thinking. Solar power for commuting IS doable. You dont replace your current car, you keep it and get a cheap, light weight, solar powered vehicle (think golf cart) to drive to work.

Obviously, there are some people who cannot get to work without using a highway. That is where government steps in. Can't be done you say? Look at all the businesses that had to make themselves handicap accessible.

We have workable technology right now. It's not perfect and some folks live in places that solar wouldn't be feasible if it was 100% efficient. I haven't seen any auto maker who gets it. They all are trying to replace gas powered cars. It just isn't going to happen in our lifetimes.

 

[ShawnD1]

People need to change their thinking. Solar power for commuting IS doable. You dont replace your current car, you keep it and get a cheap, light weight, solar powered vehicle (think golf cart) to drive to work.

Where do I store this shit? Do I need to buy 2 parking spaces? Should a family of 3 or 4 people have a total of 3 vehicles instead of 2? Most of the people I know have 1 vehicle. My brother has a second parking space and I think he said it cost something like $5,000. The golf cart would be another $10,000 on top of that, so we're already down 15k just to have this extra vehicle.

Even in Britain where gasoline is $8/gallon, it's not worth buying a second car just to save fuel.

 

[A5]

People need to change their thinking. Solar power for commuting IS doable. You dont replace your current car, you keep it and get a cheap, light weight, solar powered vehicle (think golf cart) to drive to work.

Obviously, there are some people who cannot get to work without using a highway. That is where government steps in. Can't be done you say? Look at all the businesses that had to make themselves handicap accessible.

We have workable technology right now. It's not perfect and some folks live in places that solar wouldn't be feasible if it was 100% efficient. I haven't seen any auto maker who gets it. They all are trying to replace gas powered cars. It just isn't going to happen in our lifetimes.

This would require a massive shift in population from the suburbs to urban cores. Electric vehicles quickly lose the cheap and light parts of the equation once you need to get a decent range and the creature comforts that people are used to having. My commute is about 14 miles each way, and I'd bet that I live closer than 80% of the people working here.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Where do I store this shit? Do I need to buy 2 parking spaces? Should a family of 3 or 4 people have a total of 3 vehicles instead of 2? Most of the people I know have 1 vehicle. My brother has a second parking space and I think he said it cost something like $5,000. The golf cart would be another $10,000 on top of that, so we're already down 15k just to have this extra vehicle.

Even in Britain where gasoline is $8/gallon, it's not worth buying a second car just to save fuel.

So, it would not work for you. However, you have to realize that the majority of Americans do not pay the exorbitant costs for parking that you and your brother do.

This would require a massive shift in population from the suburbs to urban cores. Electric vehicles quickly lose the cheap and light parts of the equation once you need to get a decent range and the creature comforts that people are used to having. My commute is about 14 miles each way, and I'd bet that I live closer than 80% of the people working here.

Small lightweight vehicles with a 40 mile range are doable now. Creature comforts, read air conditioning, aren't going to happen. Still, most motorcycle riders don't seem to mind.

 

[A5]

Small lightweight vehicles with a 40 mile range are doable now. Creature comforts, read air conditioning, aren't going to happen. Still, most motorcycle riders don't seem to mind.

Air conditioning isn't an option here. In the summer it's in the mid-80s (F) when I leave in the morning and damn near 100 when I leave at night - temps in the car after sitting all day are even higher than that. One of the many reasons I don't ride a motorcycle

 

[ShawnD1]

Air conditioning isn't an option here. In the summer it's in the mid-80s (F) when I leave in the morning and damn near 100 when I leave at night - temps in the car after sitting all day are even higher than that. One of the many reasons I don't ride a motorcycle

TRUF. Even up in Canada it gets crazy hot in summer. It must suck ass to be in one of the dryer parts of Texas when the sun is shining down at full power with no clouds and your car golf cart is black.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Air conditioning isn't an option here. In the summer it's in the mid-80s (F) when I leave in the morning and damn near 100 when I leave at night - temps in the car after sitting all day are even higher than that. One of the many reasons I don't ride a motorcycle

TRUF. Even up in Canada it gets crazy hot in summer. It must suck ass to be in one of the dryer parts of Texas when the sun is shining down at full power with no clouds and your car golf cart is black.

Gotcha. So, you're all for solar power as long as it doesn't inconvenience you or, make you sweat (or, affect your car color choices).

 

[Malak]

Solar panels are a non-starter. They are too costly, too inefficient, and their lifespan is too short. They are not feasible as an actual green technology, especially if you consider the energy cost to build them, which few people do.

Everything you said is incorrect.

People that oppose solar power aren't paying attention to the market or tech advances at all. Even the middle east is getting into solar.

 

[A5]

Gotcha. So, you're all for solar power as long as it doesn't inconvenience you or, make you sweat (or, affect your car color choices).

Yes? I can't show up to work drenched in sweat - we don't have showers.

 

[desy]

EV's are still way too much of a compromise in driving range and solar? I pay 8c KWH for normal electricity and in Canada one of the sunnier parts but . . . .
Still many yrs for this to be viable

 

[ShawnD1]

Yes? I can't show up to work drenched in sweat - we don't have showers.

That and hundreds of children and pets die every year because they are in a hot car with no AC.

Just picture it now. You're in LA, it's July. Chillin in gridlock traffic because there's an accident up ahead. You're sweating your balls off in your golf cart with no AC. God damn it's hot. Wish there was something to drink, but you can't leave your car while it's on the road like that.

 

[SonicIce]

That and hundreds of children and pets die every year because they are in a hot car with no AC.

Just picture it now. You're in LA, it's July. Chillin in gridlock traffic because there's an accident up ahead. You're sweating your balls off in your golf cart with no AC. God damn it's hot. Wish there was something to drink, but you can't leave your car while it's on the road like that.

I guess you couldn't escape from LA