Electric Vehicle tipping point soon?

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heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
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False dilemma fallacy.

EV's, unlike an Internal Combustion vehicle, can be filled full of energy from an electric plug. The voltage and amperage of the plug determine the rate of charging. The majority of EV charging will be done at a person's residence via L-2 charging overnight. 75M owner-occupied units with 80% having a garage or carport equal about 60M potential "filling" stations for EV's. Before I installed my L14-50 plug at my house, I simply used an adapter to plug my 6.6kw EV charger into my dryer outlet. Before I purchased an EV charger, I simply plugged the charger that came with the car into a 110 outlet. It really is that easy. It was a difficult concept at first, not having to go and get gas every week at a filling station. However, we quickly found not having to swing by Costco every week and wait in line to fill up was kind of nice.

This leaves Public L3 charging for use during times of travel for those that do have home charging and those that don't have home charging. Which leaves us with a considerably smaller amount of vehicles that would be using these charging stations.

EV charging unlike a gas station and be fairly easily fit into areas that a traditional gas station would never fit in. For example, Tesla supercharging for cities - https://www.tesla.com/blog/supercharging-cities
Tesla even located one of there Supercharging stations at a Gas Station.

Tesla also has a program that it provides free to business, destination chargers. https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/chargers/United+States
You are traveling and you stop at a hotel with a destination charger. You plug in your car and it charges overnight and is ready to go in the morning with a full charge.

It is a false metric. I have a garage, with no power approved for charging. My parents have a carport with no power. The house I'm looking at has a garage with no power (no lights, manual door etc). I've never stayed at a hotel provided by my company that had more than one charger. I couldn't even find a place to plug in my damn block heater so I could start my truck at -30F the next morning. Talk about fairy world numbers. The USA is not California. The Midwest and Deep South are full of high mileage power deserts. Hell part of the smoky mountain range was an issue when I only had 180 miles of gas in the Jeep, there was no where to fuel that wasn't off course. But I guess if all you do is use the interstate, things are great.


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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
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It seems that some EV people are extremely out of touch in terms of how much infrastructure enhancements are needed far dense areas that were developed 50-60 years ago. An area like Prince George's County is full of tight, narrow roads filled to the brim with cars, lots of old construction from the 70s, and lots of multifamily complexes, not to mention railroads, rivers, and highways serving as barriers between areas living. Heck, even some single family homes having street parking only.

Electrical work will almost always require a permit, so folks will just live with extension cords going out to their parking space and thus either making the neighborhood look unattractive or be an open invitation for someone else to steal your house's electricity.

EVs are partially the bourgeois dream child of people living in their nice single family homes in some recently developed, affluent suburb who don't drive around except to go to their 9-5 job.

I live in a 110 year old building, in the railroad capital of the US, a block from a river, amongst several major highways, and the city is usually in the top 5 of places considered "most congested" for traffic....and drive a PHEV that super rarely has to use any fuel.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
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Seriously? That is 500 gallons of gas, or ~15,000 miles of driving in a typical sedan, just for the cost of install at someone else's house. I think that would firmly put the EV in the toy category as opposed to "economical tool" category.

I think EVs make a lot of since for commuting in town, but for the majority of people they are non-starter for a single car house. I'm not going to waste hours on my vacation going out of my way to find a charging station and then sit there for .5-2 hours per refill.

That $1000 potentially buys you a charger that can span multiple cars and in the future can attract certain buyers to the house.

Yeah, the infrastructure isn't quite there for apartment dwellers, etc, but my next house will be built with an EV charger/charger circuit already there from day1.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,815
136
It is a false metric. I have a garage, with no power approved for charging. My parents have a carport with no power. The house I'm looking at has a garage with no power (no lights, manual door etc). I've never stayed at a hotel provided by my company that had more than one charger. I couldn't even find a place to plug in my damn block heater so I could start my truck at -30F the next morning. Talk about fairy world numbers. The USA is not California. The Midwest and Deep South are full of high mileage power deserts. Hell part of the smoky mountain range was an issue when I only had 180 miles of gas in the Jeep, there was no where to fuel that wasn't off course. But I guess if all you do is use the interstate, things are great.


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I believe I've found your next vehicle:



 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
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It seems that some EV people are extremely out of touch in terms of how much infrastructure enhancements are needed far dense areas that were developed 50-60 years ago. An area like Prince George's County is full of tight, narrow roads filled to the brim with cars, lots of old construction from the 70s, and lots of multifamily complexes, not to mention railroads, rivers, and highways serving as barriers between areas living. Heck, even some single family homes having street parking only.

Electrical work will almost always require a permit, so folks will just live with extension cords going out to their parking space and thus either making the neighborhood look unattractive or be an open invitation for someone else to steal your house's electricity.

EVs are partially the bourgeois dream child of people living in their nice single family homes in some recently developed, affluent suburb who don't drive around except to go to their 9-5 job.

Its seems like some anti-EV people don't realize that statistics are more important than anecdotes.

Most Homes in the USA are single family detached, most US households are multi-car, which means their huge amount of EV.

There is are Large Percentage of the population that could very easily switch one of their cars to and EV. It could be close to 50% of the market for a next car, that could go EV, if the right EV was available for the right price.

No doubt their is also a large percentage that aren't suitable to switch to to EVs as well, which could also be close to 50%, it could be 60/40 or 40/60.

So basically there are large percentages on both sides of EV working and EV not working for people.

Highlighting anecdotes on either side changes nothing, and is just a waste of time/energy.

What matters is, that there is huge potential market for EVs, when the right EV arrives.

We all know EV's won't work for everyone, but there are huge numbers that it will work for, and that is a large potential that you address first.

You can sell millions of EVs before getting to anyone that doesn't have a place to charge, or who drives 1000 miles every weekend.

So the real question is what will sell EVs to those that they would work just fine for, because they represent a huge market.

IMO that is all about price. If someone is going to buy a Honda Civic Hatchback to commute, it can be had for ~$20K, but you pay >$30K for a Chevy Bolt.

The tipping point as I see it is when I can get something like a Bolt for the same Price as a Civic Hatchback.
 
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tweakmonkey

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Mar 11, 2013
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Why should the Bolt be the same price as the Civic, when it's faster, quieter, doesn't require regular maintenance and costs 1/3 to 1/2 approx as much to operate? I think the economics will lean more toward evs as more become available and people see the numbers over 100k miles etc. I've driven a Bolt and it's a magical experience compared to a buzzy Civic.

Granted Evs are a niche and expensive currently but they drive very nice and that's why so many MB/BMW guys are getting Teslas. And you do spend less per mile so the more you drive, the more you save. And time when you factor in gas stops, especially for commuters.

We're in a weird place now. Evs are getting much better year by year. I'm wondering what will change for demand and price as all these 150-200+ cars become available and even cheaper.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
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Why should the Bolt be the same price as the Civic, when it's faster, quieter, doesn't require regular maintenance and costs 1/3 to 1/2 approx as much to operate? I think the economics will lean more toward evs as more become available and people see the numbers over 100k miles etc. I've driven a Bolt and it's a magical experience compared to a buzzy Civic.

Granted Evs are a niche and expensive currently but they drive very nice and that's why so many MB/BMW guys are getting Teslas. And you do spend less per mile so the more you drive, the more you save. And time when you factor in gas stops, especially for commuters.

It won't for the totally practical buyer who uses Total Cost of Ownership spreadsheet as a major factor in choosing cars.

But for the average buyer who tends to compare things based on sticker price first, you have to be closer to enter into the selection process.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
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It is a false metric. I have a garage, with no power approved for charging. My parents have a carport with no power. The house I'm looking at has a garage with no power (no lights, manual door etc). I've never stayed at a hotel provided by my company that had more than one charger. I couldn't even find a place to plug in my damn block heater so I could start my truck at -30F the next morning. Talk about fairy world numbers. The USA is not California. The Midwest and Deep South are full of high mileage power deserts. Hell part of the smoky mountain range was an issue when I only had 180 miles of gas in the Jeep, there was no where to fuel that wasn't off course. But I guess if all you do is use the interstate, things are great.


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We can exchange anecdotal bits all day long. Should I tell you about the number of garages in just my track that can support EV charging?
 
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heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
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We can exchange anecdotal bits all day long. Should I tell you about the number of garages in just my track that can support EV charging?

Sure, cause it's all that anyone has at this point. We don't take a census on powered garages. We don't take a census on who can afford to install charging stations for 1000-4000$. We don't we don't take census on households that can have two cars to have a backup ICE. I said before, this thread is all opinion on known data.

This thread is laughably off course. The question was is the tipping point soon. I said no, with data to backup my opinion. The other side of the fence is "omg it's sooooon". Which I guess is the problem of the thread, the timeline is left to opinion. Soon is defined as a short period of time. If a decade is soon in automobile age (a little less than 100 years) then by the same math a person saying something will be doing something soon is an acceptable term for 6-7 years. Man is my boss in for a surprise on those reports. Regardless of whether or not it CAN be done, soon (even 10 years) won't happen because of the current socioeconomic atmosphere. If you want to beat the drum that it could happen because the technology is there, you can do that. But a real look at the real world makes it clear that business and government meddling changes that course drastically and in an unpredictable way.


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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
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EVs are partially the bourgeois dream child of people living in their nice single family homes in some recently developed, affluent suburb who don't drive around except to go to their 9-5 job.

I doubt most 'affluent' people work 9-5, otherwise, I agree. When I was making good money, it was more like 8:30a-7:00p - not including the commute.
 

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
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Sure, cause it's all that anyone has at this point. We don't take a census on powered garages. We don't take a census on who can afford to install charging stations for 1000-4000$. We don't we don't take census on households that can have two cars to have a backup ICE. I said before, this thread is all opinion on known data.

This thread is laughably off course. The question was is the tipping point soon. I said no, with data to backup my opinion. The other side of the fence is "omg it's sooooon". Which I guess is the problem of the thread, the timeline is left to opinion. Soon is defined as a short period of time. If a decade is soon in automobile age (a little less than 100 years) then by the same math a person saying something will be doing something soon is an acceptable term for 6-7 years. Man is my boss in for a surprise on those reports. Regardless of whether or not it CAN be done, soon (even 10 years) won't happen because of the current socioeconomic atmosphere. If you want to beat the drum that it could happen because the technology is there, you can do that. But a real look at the real world makes it clear that business and government meddling changes that course drastically and in an unpredictable way.

First, you're quite simply wrong on some of those points - We have a very good idea of how many vehicles US households have, and we have a very good idea how much households spend on transportation annually. We also know how many miles individuals travel to work, how many miles households drive in a year, etc.

http://nhts.ornl.gov/
https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/...portation_statistics_annual_report/index.html

Secondly, you need to stop thinking of the chargers as a prohibitive stand alone cost. It's part of the TCO for the vehicle (thus fits into what households spend annually on transportation), it can be financed (with the vehicle even), and (most importantly) this is currently largely borne by the people buying new cars. People buying $35k (and way, way up) vehicles can come up with a way to buy a charger. When they buy new houses they'll probably install chargers there as well, leaving the buyer of their old house a 'free' charger. Charger cost is a non issue, seriously get over it.

Viper GTS
 
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heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
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First, you're quite simply wrong on some of those points - We have a very good idea of how many vehicles US households have, and we have a very good idea how much households spend on transportation annually. We also know how many miles individuals travel to work, how many miles households drive in a year, etc.

http://nhts.ornl.gov/
https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/...portation_statistics_annual_report/index.html

Secondly, you need to stop thinking of the chargers as a prohibitive stand alone cost. It's part of the TCO for the vehicle (thus fits into what households spend annually on transportation), it can be financed, and (most importantly) this is currently largely borne by the people buying new cars. People buying $35k (and way, way up) vehicles can come up with a way to buy a charger. When they buy new houses they'll probably install chargers there as well, leaving the buyer of their old house a 'free' charger. This nonCharger cost is a non issue, seriously get over it.

Viper GTS

That's a cool opinion on data. Does that chart tell you the cost of each vehicle and that they aren't two beaters rather than an expensive electric? Transportation cost is not a starter to the infrastructure issues in discussing.

As to financing that's usually not covering installation at least when I looked at the volt. The installation is more than the charger in all of my living setups, everyone's mileage will vary on that. There seems to be no middle ground to you people. Anyone can look at my city and find the lack of charging or electric car sales, this isn't incognito BS. Your stuck in your heads thinking that we need to beat this guy on the tipping point. The tipping point has been explained, you're more than free to update me in "soon" years that electrics have picked up past the tipping point, which to me would be 4 million per year, just 1/4 of new car sales. But feel free to set whatever arbitrary number you like.

25% of America could not install charging stations at home in 3 years on their own dime while buying their own EVs. That metric covers every adult with a car in the country, because I'm not cherry picking shit like y'all. Simply the end of the "soon" story.


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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
At that level you'd still be "gassing" up twice as often as ICE at over double the length of time of an average gassing up of an ICE.
(based on fill up to 70% with today's 145kw superchargers which adds 170 miles of range in about 30 minutes.)

I would think that would mean we'd need 4 times the number of chargers as gas stations we have now to keep the time investment reasonable. Talk about infrastructure upgrade.

Not to mention, if you had a 15 stall filling station, that would require 4.5MW, assuming 100% efficiency. So a filling station would have to pay for a ~5MW feed. Put those all over town, now the power companies have to have a ton of extra power capacity spinning to meet their commitments.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
That $1000 potentially buys you a charger that can span multiple cars and in the future can attract certain buyers to the house.

Yeah, the infrastructure isn't quite there for apartment dwellers, etc, but my next house will be built with an EV charger/charger circuit already there from day1.

Don't get me wrong, a charger makes a ton of sense for your own house. But he was talking about installing chargers at other people's houses that you go to occasionally.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
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Its seems like some anti-EV people don't realize that statistics are more important than anecdotes.

Most Homes in the USA are single family detached, most US households are multi-car, which means their huge amount of EV.

There is are Large Percentage of the population that could very easily switch one of their cars to and EV. It could be close to 50% of the market for a next car, that could go EV, if the right EV was available for the right price.

No doubt their is also a large percentage that aren't suitable to switch to to EVs as well, which could also be close to 50%, it could be 60/40 or 40/60.

So basically there are large percentages on both sides of EV working and EV not working for people.

Highlighting anecdotes on either side changes nothing, and is just a waste of time/energy.

What matters is, that there is huge potential market for EVs, when the right EV arrives.

We all know EV's won't work for everyone, but there are huge numbers that it will work for, and that is a large potential that you address first.

You can sell millions of EVs before getting to anyone that doesn't have a place to charge, or who drives 1000 miles every weekend.

So the real question is what will sell EVs to those that they would work just fine for, because they represent a huge market.

IMO that is all about price. If someone is going to buy a Honda Civic Hatchback to commute, it can be had for ~$20K, but you pay >$30K for a Chevy Bolt.

The tipping point as I see it is when I can get something like a Bolt for the same Price as a Civic Hatchback.
How do you have proof that I am anti-EV? Bringing up pragmatic matters is necessary to make lofty dreams an actual reality.There are numerous pragmatic matters to address before the EV can match the gas automobile in terms of versatility. The freedom of not being tied to a house or to a recharge station is not a trivial concern and a major disadvantage in the markets most ripe for EV adoption.

That I am bringing that up is not a matter of being for or against, but rather defining the very real obstacles to adoption. Many of those single homes are in rural areas, which are likely to be the last to adopt EVS for a multitude of reasons.

It is the single family residents--yes, residents as not every SFH is owner occupied--in suburban and urban areas that would be leading the charge, and their respective local governments. It just so happens that in condos and townhouse are common in suburban areas and cities have even more multifamily buildings. There is also the matter of SFH residents who rent, because if they move into an apartment, townhouse or condo, their EV just became a large pain in the ass if the parking lot/garage does not give them a dedicated charging spot.


And on condo complex can have 40 or more people with two spaces per unit. That is a lot of customers in a small area lost if the infrastructure is not there and not a insignificant hurdle


The fact is the area I have traveled around extensively(DC Metro) is well behind being EV ready even though the politics and money would be favorable to the technology. Understand that an automobile is about as close to being ubiquitously useful for anyone and anywhere. The tipping point will not be reached until urban and suburban areas can accommodate them everywhere. There is no way SFH owner-occupants in the suburbs and cities alone can sustain demand for them.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
Just the fact that more and more people consider ECs as an option to consider is a tipping point. All the hyper environmentalists, trend setting celebrities, and hippies have switched, but more and more it's just people wanting a new vehicle that are buying ECs.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,501
136
The tipping point will be when there are affordable (sub $30-35k before incentives/credits) EVs in most of the segments (SUV, crossover, minivan, sedan) with solid range (~300 miles). Infrastructure will have to grow before/while that happens, so we aren't talking about the tipping point being tomorrow, but it will likely be in a few years time.
 
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Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
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The tipping point will be when there are affordable (sub $30-35k before incentives/credits) EVs in most of the segments (SUV, crossover, minivan, sedan) with solid range (~300 miles). Infrastructure will have to grow before/while that happens, so we aren't talking about the tipping point being tomorrow, but it will likely be in a few years time.

This will be pretty hard though, because a "20mpg" gas vehicle needs twice as much battery for the same range as a "40mpg" vehicle. The BOM in gasoline vehicles doesn't scale the same way because you pay for it at the pump over time.
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
141
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Just saw this on CleanTechnica:

In 3–5 years, the electric car market is going to be very different. Heck, in 6 months it’s going to be very different. But up till now, it has been led by buyers who strongly concluded that cleantech action was needed in order to thwart cancer-causing pollution and cool down the fever our world is developing. For many of us, the idea of an “impure,” gasoline-using plug-in hybrid doesn’t feel right. It feels like we should go fully electric — no compromises. My mom got a Nissan LEAF and didn’t even seriously consider the Chevy Volt because she just didn’t want a gas tank in her car, wanted to do everything she could to avoid visiting a gas station again.

I’ll admit it, too — I’ve got some issues with plug-in hybrids, and particularly how they’ve been designed by most automakers — well, all automakers except GM. However, plug-in hybrids are superb options — the best options — for many buyers. They even offer more environmental benefits than fully electric cars in some cases. Simply put, they are transition vehicles, and many people need transition vehicles in order to jump into the transition quicker.

Additionally, even with small-battery, low-electric-range plug-in hybrids, a tremendous amount of driving can be done on electricity. Some facts:


♣ The average commute in the United States is 13.6 miles. (2009 data from the US DOT analyzed by Solar Journey USA)

♣ 95% of American car commuters commute were 40 miles or fewer to work. (2009 data from the US DOT analyzed by Solar Journey USA)

♣ 95% of single-destination trips were 30 miles or fewer. (2009 data from the US DOT analyzed by Solar Journey USA)


♣ Nearly 80% of days, American drivers drive 50 miles or fewer. (2009 data from the US DOT analyzed by Solar Journey USA)

♣ The average annual distance driven by American drivers is approximately twicethat of British drivers (and more or less the same thing is probably true of other European countries).

♣ Early Chevy Volt drivers drive nearly the same number of electric miles a year as early Nissan LEAF drivers (2015 report from Idaho National Laboratory, covered on EV Obsession)

— Nissan LEAF average annual electric miles driven: 9,697
— Chevy Volt average annual electric miles driven: 9,112

Now, if you look at the electric range of plug-in hybrids on the market today, here are some more facts:


♣ Even the lowest-electric-range plug-in hybrids — basically, BMW’s models — have 14 miles of electric range, which would cover the average commute in the USA.

♣ Many of the plug-in hybrids on the market now have 20+ miles of electric range. Assuming the battery can be charged up at home, such a car could cover all of the driving on electricity on ~40% of days. That doesn’t mean only 40% electric driving, of course, since the car could also offer 20 miles of electric driving on days with over 20 miles of driving. Another ~30% of days, for example, that battery could cover 50% of the driving — and that’s assuming no charging away from home! Furthermore, remember, the battery needed to cover all of that is much smaller

than the batteries in fully electric cars, which means less mining and emissions from the battery production side of the equation.

♣ The Toyota Prius Prime — now the most popular or second most popularplug-in hybrid in the USA — offers 25 milesof EPA-rated electric range. Drive just a little bit conservatively or on slow roads and that could easily be 30 miles, which would mean that the Prime could cover 95% of single-distance trips on electricity. Flip the switch on that and it means only 5% of single-distance trips couldn’t be covered by a full Prius Prime battery.


♣ The Chevy Volt — the other most popular plug-in hybrid — has 53 miles of EPA-rated electric range. That means that the Volt could cover ~80% of US driving days on electricity without charging away from home. Add in the ability to get a full charge out and about and it would cover approximately 95% of driving days.

I think the points are pretty clear: With much smaller batteries than fully electric cars, plug-in hybrids can still cover the majority or vast majority of driving on electricity — even without charging away from home. If you imagined a hypothetical extreme where 100% of cars became plug-in hybrids, that could mean fully cutting 100% of emissions from gasoline-powered cars on >50% of days, and cutting another large chunk of emissions on other days. If all of these plug-in hybrids had the electric range of the Chevy Volt, that would mean cutting 100% of emissions from gasoline-powered cars on ~80% of days, and cutting another large chunk of emissions on other days.

And that’s all in the driving-addicted United States.

The general point is that even though many of us cleantech-loving climate hawks wish automakers would come out with more fully electric cars and would partner with Tesla on Supercharging so that those cars would be convenient/practical for long-distance travel, plug-in hybrids can cut a tremendous amount of emissions with relatively little demand for battery production growth and basically no need for fast charging or superfast charging.

There are other pros and cons to plug-in hybrids, though, so I’ll quickly run through some of these in a couple of clover-point lists.

More Plug-in Hybrid Pros
♣ Automakers can fairly easily create them from existing gasoline/diesel models, which hypothetically cuts down on model development costs.

♣ Don’t really have to worry about your battery degrading and becoming inadequate over time.

♣ Give people a taste of driving electric, instant torque, a quiet & smooth ride, home charging, and rarely stopping at a gas station.

♣ Increase battery demand (when consumers choose them over gas cars), which helps to ramp up production capacity and bring down costs.

Plug-in Hybrid Cons
♣ Include the cost and complexity of gasoline/diesel cars since they also comes with engines and all their supportive bandages and canes. (Includes the cost and hassle of repairing gasoline/diesel components as they inevitably break.)

♣ Small batteries (and motors) mean less power, which can easily hide the superb benefit of an electric car’s instant torque.

♣ You do indeed have to go get gasoline when you go beyond your electric driving range too much.

♣ Can’t use DC fast charging.

♣ Space is more limited than it would be otherwise since the car has to accommodate engines, motors, batteries, and other components of both electric and gasoline/diesel drivetrains.

♣ Decrease battery demand (when consumers choosing them over fully electric cars), which means a slower ramp up of battery production capacity and costs drops.



Source

EDIT: I'd like to add that the state of Vermont is powered almost exclusively by renewables, and has no fossil fuel power plants. A very small amount of electricity purchased from the regional grid comes from fossil fuel plants. We also pay the lowest electricity rates in New England, likely due to most of it being non-profit.
 
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heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
Like I said, hybrids are where it's at. More efficient use of power, especially in the city. I tried to get a 2017 hybrid Silverado, but they only sell them in California . So here I am with a regular one.


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pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
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So I'm an enthusiastic EV driver and I'm kind of with the naysayers on this. I think it's an exciting time for EV's but I don't think we are near any kind of tipping point. I reserved a Tesla Model 3 - and according to their website I'm supposed to get mine in the next 100 days so my EV cred is probably reasonably solid so I hopefully won't elicit too many upset replies when I say that my opinion is that we are just starting to approach a time when EV's could start to become practical for a larger percentage of drivers and that's a long way away from a significant percentage of people actually saying "yeah, my next car will be an EV"... which would to me indicate some sort of tipping point.

I've always thought that if they can get the price delta of an EV close to parity with a gas car, if you can get the range above 300 miles per charge, and you can get the 80% charge time under 10 minutes, you have something that will work for everyone more or less everywhere except maybe truly remote locations. Right now, it seems like you have to pay about 50% premium - more or less, we could debate this number... but what is a comparable car to a Bolt if it had an internal combustion engine? The range is only be over 300 miles per charge with cars from Tesla, and the charge times to 80% are around 20-30 minutes from Tesla and much much longer from everyone else. To me, the other manufacturers are trying to show that they have a plan for the future, but only Tesla is actually implementing anything that could come close to switching over the average driver.

My brother-in-law in Berkeley, California, has a Chevy Bolt. His main reason for buying it was because he gets to use the carpool lanes on the Bay Bridge into San Francisco and because he gets to use the premium EV parking spot in his office building - not because he's excited by the car itself, but because he can get to work faster and find parking easier... both of which would disappear if there were more EV drivers out there. Now that he has the car he likes his car, but when I flew out over the summer to go to a wedding in Carmel, California and I said "hey, I can't wait to see your Bolt", he replied that he wasn't going to drive it because it's 120 miles to Carmel and he wasn't sure how to charge it during the wedding and so he was worried about getting it home. So I still haven't seen his Bolt. You might have suggestions for how he could have done this (it looks like there's a DC fast charger in Marina which isn't too far from Carmel), but the point remains that he doesn't feel comfortable taking the car on long trips and for that he uses what he called his "real car".

I think we need much faster chargers (~80% in 10-15 minutes). I think we need much cheaper EV cars. I think we need to have cars that have appeal even if there aren't federal and state tax incentives to buy them. And I think we need to see ranges in excess of 300 miles per charge. And then when have all of these we will start to see a real mass adoption of EV.... which in my mind would start to constitute a tipping point.

I think it's an exciting time for EV's - they are finally starting to look like a future transportation revolution to me. And it's great to see EV options appear. But I think we are just at the cusp of something starting to look like it could go mainstream and there's a long ways to go.
 
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pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
Which ev do you drive?
Well, it's maybe incorrect of me to call it an EV. It's a 2010 Toyota Prius that I modified myself with a kit to install a 4kWh LiFePo plug-in battery turning it into a plug-in hybrid EV. It runs in pure EV mode as long as I stay below 45 mph and don't accelerate too hard. Above that speed, it's blended. It has approximately 12-14 miles of range.
 

MuchTooSexy

Member
Mar 31, 2014
82
3
71
i am a proponent of EVs but i also don't feel we've reached that tipping point yet. even though EVs are plenty usable for typical customers, many still are either unaware of the advantages or make too much of the disadvantages. everyone was hopeful the Chevy Bolt with its range could bring about that tipping point, but i don't think it has. they aren't selling all that quickly, and stock is piling up at the dealers. some of the problem is chevy themselves. i still keep seeing stupid silverado commercials and not a single commercial for the bolt. for traditional cars, winning MT's car of the year and being in CD's top 10 list would have been advertised up the wazzo.

i managed to score what i feel is a pretty decent deal because the dealer had tons in stock that have been sitting there for months. i got a basic Bolt LT with DC fast charing that has an MSRP of $38245 for $29000. (CA tax and fees extra). That is before the CA rebate of $2500 and the federal tax credit of $7500. that's an additional $10k off, making it a $19k car.

The government rebates and the HOV benefits are certainly artificial incentives. but if those incentives aren't enough to get people to buy a very well reviewed car, i really am not sure what can be done to bring about that tipping point.

(from a purely selfish point of view, i hope people continue to be blind to these benefits. I don't want other astute drivers to clog up the HOV lanes.)
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
141
106
So I suppose the "tipping point" is when EVs have every conceivable advantage over ICEs and no disadvantages, so you'd have to be a fool not to own one, and even then it'll take a while for people to start buying them.

What they have now:
-Fueling a fraction of the cost
-No exhaust, no noise, no vibrations
-Instant torque/acceleration
-One pedal driving
-Significantly lower maintenance costs and complexity
-Significantly higher reliability
-Can drive itself

What still needs to happen:
-Must have more range for one trip than anyone would want to drive for one trip
-Must take no longer to "fill up", 20 minutes is too long for what's usually a weeks' driving for most people
-Must cost the same or less as an ICE vehicle which is otherwise inferior
 
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