Electromagnetic waves - what are they?

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Nov 19, 2002
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Hmm let's think about it. A couple of laypeople (you and the guy who runs the site), who have no formal education in physics, vs the whole scientific community, past and present, who dedicate their lives to understanding the universe we live in. Are you so arrogant to believe that you really know better than them?
 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
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First, you don't know me. Second, I could see why you wouldn't like this guy if he had some kind of background in fraud or was a proven liar (that is why I asked if anyone knew him), but I have seen no evidence to that... and you don't know him either. You have no knowledge of his education or mine. For all you know he could have 2 doctorates or not even graduated high school. Again if you actually read the work you would see he wrote it so it is easy to understand for most intelligent people. Furthermore formal education is irrelevent as ALL the ancient contributors had none because there was NO formal education. And even some who are more recent. Einstein was a lay-man working as a patent clerk, not a university professor. Also it is even a possibility that he may be using a different name because pompass jackasses like yourself would fire him just for exploring other possibilities... just a thought. On this particular topic (A grand unifying theory) I do not know better than the "experts," nor does he. But the "experts" don't know any better than anyone else either because no one else that I know of has even given a unifying theory. If they did know better, they would already know the answers to the question he poises.

Attacking him personally as a "sad loser" is a ignorant man's recourse. Why don't you just shout heretic and have him burned at the stake. By saying, "I'm not going to dignify his ramblings with rebuttles", do you mean that you are not intelligent enough to?

Also let me spell it out to you, YET AGAIN. HE FULLY ACKNOWLEDGES WHEN HE IS SPECULATING AND THAT THERE MAY BE OTHER POSSIBILITIES. Much of the later part of the book, such as the egyptian reference you made, is about giving examples of things to explore using his main theory... not stating it as a fact.

I understand why you are like this though.... you are just one of the many sheep. Following blindly the dogma of what we all think we know to be true. That however is ok, because while sheep like you do make some smaller progress (but yes, more often), the true revolutionary steps are made by those not afraid to be wrong and that go against the flow, even though the giant leaps will be fewer and farther between.
 

f95toli

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2002
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Now you are beeing silly. First of all Einstein was definitly not a lay-man. He was well trained by some of the best physicists in the world. He was working at the patent office because the labour-market for newly graduated physicist was not great around 1900, beeing jewish didn't help. The work also left plenty of time for hime to work on special relativity.

Another thing you have to understand is that the only way to test a theory is by performing experiments. Not only has the theory be able to explain all experiments that exist but it also need to be able to predict the outcome of new experiments.

Quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity works as has been confirmed many times, there are still many things we do not fully understand but there are many things we are sure of simply becuase it works. Let me give you a number of practical examples.

Quantum mechanics: Basically all modern micro-electronics, modern chemistry. A slighty more exotic example is Quantum computers (the first 7-bit computer was build a year ago) and quantum chryptography (has been around for a few years, should be commercialy available in about 5 years).

Special relativity: Nuclear powerplants. Atomic clocks.

General relativity: GPS positioning (General relativity has to be taken into account in order to compensate for the time-dilation due to the gravity of earth).

Nature does not care if we "understand" it. There are many things that our brains can not understand simply because it was not designed to comprehend these things. There are many things I do not "understand": How far is the moon? How long is 5 billion years?
I "understand" these things about as well as I understand the particle/wave-duality
 

pexidecimal

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2002
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I think our brains were designed to understand much more than we realize. Thats why we have curiosity and a sence of discovery.
 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
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f95toli,
I applaud you as the first response of rational thought. My statement about Einstein being a layman was in the context of FB's definition, i.e. no formal degree. I thought he did not have his degree yet when he first discovered relativity, and if that is not true then I retract and thank you for correcting me. However my intended point stands that degrees do not determine intelligence. I have been to enough universities to know that just because someone graduates in his/her particular field does not necessarily mean that they are more qualified than anyone else on the street. I have known some who never went to college but studied a subject on their own and would put some with doctorates to shame.

Also I do fully understand and endorse that the only way to test a theory is to experiment. Redbourne showed in his book that he also believes this and even gave suggestions for experiments to test his theories (since according to him, he does not have the resources to do so). My problem was only with the ridiculing and denouncing of his theories solely because they are different than the currently held views. It appears that he is no rambling idiot, as he seems very well informed in many areas like wave mechanics, though not all areas (in all fairness his book does cover a very broad range). Whether his theories are valid or not, it deserves open-minded, objective evaluation. The day no one can present new ideas is the day science is dead.

True enough nature does not care if we understand, however I for one do. And I tend to agree with pexi that we have not reached the limits of our potential. No one is denying the advancements you listed and nor will his theories. However whether it is a physical device or a math equation, making it work and finding correlations is quite a different thing from fully understanding how and why it works. Finding a deeper understanding of these mechanisms will bring even more advancements.
 
Nov 19, 2002
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I think you've proven full well that you've reached the limits of your potential. You said yourself you can't grasp the concept of wave-particle duality, and it also follows that you can't grasp many of the concepts of quantum mechanics, as none of them make sense in our 'rational' world, and if you can't accept that the universe goes beyond our primitive comprehension, then you aren't fit to discuss it.

As for this crackpot, don't even get me started. You're no better than the imaginary indoctrinated people you speak of. You don't care about the truth, you just want to be a member of the counterculture conspiracists. What possible reason in the world would you have for giving this guy, who's never put any of his theories to the test, more credit than all the scientists and experiments, and resultant advances over the last 100 years, that are completely at odds with his outdated theories (such as his belief in the aether). Scientists set out hypothesis and put them to the test, this crackpot isn't interested in backing up anything he says. If he's too "busy" to test what he writes, then there's no point him writing at all.
 

Mday

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
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we dont know how many things work. we can formulate equations which explain our observations, as well as formulate more equations which explain what those previous equations could not explain. the way things work is the fundamental laws of the universe. the desire to know how things work is fundamental in the discovery of the mythical "unified theory" which is the holy grail of physics.

there are many thoughts as to how things work, even gravity, but to truly test these theories, we would have to be gods to pull it off.

we can only predict behaviors through observation. to predict through knowing how things WORK, as oppose to behave is a totally different matter.
 

pexidecimal

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2002
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Originally posted by: FuriousBroccoli
I think you've proven full well that you've reached the limits of your potential. You said yourself you can't grasp the concept of wave-particle duality, and it also follows that you can't grasp many of the concepts of quantum mechanics, as none of them make sense in our 'rational' world, and if you can't accept that the universe goes beyond our primitive comprehension, then you aren't fit to discuss it.

As for this crackpot, don't even get me started. You're no better than the imaginary indoctrinated people you speak of. You don't care about the truth, you just want to be a member of the counterculture conspiracists. What possible reason in the world would you have for giving this guy, who's never put any of his theories to the test, more credit than all the scientists and experiments, and resultant advances over the last 100 years, that are completely at odds with his outdated theories (such as his belief in the aether). Scientists set out hypothesis and put them to the test, this crackpot isn't interested in backing up anything he says. If he's too "busy" to test what he writes, then there's no point him writing at all.

You've got too much faith in yourself. Dont be a dick!

 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
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FB,
You have contributed nothing but flaming in this discussion.... 90% of what you post is personal attacks that have nothing to do with the subject. I will take your last statement word by word.

"I think you've proven full well that you've reached the limits of your potential." - personal attack, no substance.

"You said yourself you can't grasp the concept of wave-particle duality" - false, I said no such thing... I said the terms wave and particle are by definition exclusive. Go look them up in the dictionary. It is LOGICALLY impossible for something to both have mass and not have mass.

"and it also follows that you can't grasp many of the concepts of quantum mechanics, as none of them make sense in our 'rational' world,"- I grasp them just fine, but the concepts are incomplete just as any physicist would have agree, since there are many unknowns such as the ones Rebourne has pointed out.

"and if you can't accept that the universe goes beyond our primitive comprehension, then you aren't fit to discuss it." - No, I can't accept that just as Thomas Edison couldn't accept that lightning was a random act of nature that mankind would never be able to comprehend. And yes I am fit to discuss it, unless you are the all-knowing grand-poomba of everything that is "fit" to judge who can discuss and who cannot (make a dictatorship if you want this)... but obviously you have shown you are far from it.

'As for this crackpot, don't even get me started." - personal attack on the author, no substance.

"You're no better than the imaginary indoctrinated people you speak of." - This is intended to call me a liar, for which you have no possible way of knowing who I know and who I don't.... I should have my "imaginery" friend come your house and give you an "imaginary" slap to see if it feels real to you... as he is a fairly large man.

"You don't care about the truth, you just want to be a member of the counterculture conspiracists." - I do care, and if you did, you would give it a chance and read it. What "counterculture conspiracists"? I am not the one desparately holding on to current theories as if they are a religion. You are acting like a child who doesn't want to hear something. Holding your ears and screaming as loud as you can. Remember the key word is theory... as in unproven. Just like Redbourne's theories.... I would no more irrationally hold on to them than I would current theories.

"What possible reason in the world would you have for giving this guy, who's never put any of his theories to the test, more credit than all the scientists and experiments" - This is a somewhat valid question though a little erroneous. I do not give him more credit, but I do not give him less credit either. I give this guy a chance because in reading his material he is very logical and very well informed on the topics he discusses. He is also very open to revision, putting his theories to the test, and rebuttles... which is much more than I can say for you.

"and resultant advances over the last 100 years, that are completely at odds with his outdated theories (such as his belief in the aether). " - This is a faulted statement. From his book almost all of the resultant advances over the last 100 years are not completely at odds. In fact, it explains the how and why of many of them. The only things at odds are two experiements that he invalidates and some of the theories (remember, not proven) that resulted from these experiments. Now his invalidations are definately to be scrutinized and if you have a RATIONAL argument that points to specifics for why they are wrong then please share as I am always open to logical conclusions that lead to the truth. As for outdated, they are no longer outdated if he is right. If he is wrong then I will accept that.

"Scientists set out hypothesis and put them to the test, this crackpot isn't interested in backing up anything he says. If he's too "busy" to test what he writes, then there's no point him writing at all." - First phrase is true, but then ignorantly followed by another unfounded insult of character. The rest is just plain false. He does not say he is too busy to test it. He says he does not have the resources, i.e. money, manpower, etc. From reading his material I would bet that if you approached with the resources needed, he would be extremely willing to test it. This is another reason why I give him my time, because he is giving his theories out for free, though keeping the ownership, for all to have a chance to evaluate and test them. Many of the "crackpots" you speak of generally try to weasel money out of people before they fully present their theories.
 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
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Mday,

I agree with everything you said except for the last two statments. Many in the 1800's would have thought we would have to be gods to experiment with what we do today. I don't think we have to be gods, just that we aren't there yet. Although there is a point that may be reach in which that statement may be true but I think we are still far from it.

I disagree that we can only predict through observation. We can predict by coming up with theories, but whether these are valid or not will determine if the prediction is true. But this is not the point. The point is that hypothesis/theories come before the experiments which is before the observations and in a big circle again. This man is in a position where he lacks the resources to test his theories before putting them out there to be chewed on by us. However I see nothing wrong with him putting his theories and criticisms of previous experiments for all of us to evaluate as long as he is open and objective about the criticism and altenative theories returned to him; which I believe he is.
 

pexidecimal

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2002
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jolly good BaDaBooM

One word... Einstein. Many thoerys not tested but generaly accepted for years. There can be sound theorys based on fact, or for example theorys based in imaginative relativism. Einstein again... DO NOT discredit some one for having a theory you don't agree with, i'd rather suggest that you use imaginative relativism to see their perspective, like a TRUE scientist.
 

f95toli

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2002
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... I said the terms wave and particle are by definition exclusive. Go look them up in the dictionary. It is LOGICALLY impossible for something to both have mass and not have mass.[\Q]

You are missing the whole point. No one (as far as I know) is claiming that for example the photon is both a particle and a wave, what modern physics tells you is that it sometime behaves as a particle and sometimes as a wave, as I wrote earlier the problem is that we can not understand what a photon (or any other particle) really is. What we can do is create models that can predict the outcome of experiments. I should mention that in more sophisticated theories you don't have to think about particles or waves since they can handle the photon without resorting to macroscopic allegories.

Physics never tells you what things are, physics tells you how things behave. The "what is" question is philosophi, not physics.
 
Nov 19, 2002
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> It is LOGICALLY impossible for something to both have mass and not have mass.

There, you've said it again. You can't accept that the kind of fundamental logic that you hold so dear might not be able to explain all the phenomena in our universe.

Many people far more knowledgable than you on this thread have tried to offer constructive feedback on what seemed like an innocent curiosity into this man's theories, but you have thrown it back in their faces. I too have asked why a person of common sense would hold so much weight to one anonymous man's beliefs, without any mathematical proof to back it up, but you've also thrown it back in my face. This forum is for technical discussion, not discussion of beliefs, and you've taken this topic far too off-course already.
 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
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f95toli,
Actually you did...
And electromagnetic waves are just that: Waves. Unless you want to measure particles because then they are photons, it depends on HOW you measure.

You said they ARE photons, and they ARE waves depending on how you measure... However you have since modified that by saying it BEHAVES as a photon or BEHAVES as a wave depending on how you measure and I can accept that.

The rest I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Physics DOES tell you WHAT something is. No one could see air and didn't know what it was. But then they found that it is a mixture of different atoms and molecules, such as oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide. And so it goes down the scale, as I believe can find out WHAT particles such as protons and electrons are.

FB,
Without logic and rational thought you cannot make scientific progress. You are only thinking within your time and just like those of the past thought that logic failed them trying to understand air. "We know something is there, but how can it be something if we can't see it. Oh well! I gues we'll just never know so let's only talk about how it behaves."

You know nothing of my knowledge and don't assume to. I have given relevent discussion to the others that have done the same... you however, do not do this.... all you had given were insults and condemnation. I respect the others and their valid input, but I do not respect yours for the reasons already given. I also have already told you that I give him no more weight than I give to the other theories. I said, "...I THINK it is pointed in the right direction." You are the one who has caused this to go off technical discussion with your flaming.

I had hoped by posting to 1) find out more about this man and 2) get specific technical feedback about his basis for his theories (the invalidation of the M&M experiment and the non-skewed light waves). I suggest we do stay on topic... so unless you have reliable sources of information about this man, shut up about him as a person and with no exception, ME. Also NO ONE here has given me any specifics! This was what I was originally looking for from the technical forum! I am looking forward to some decent discussion about the specifics of these two invalidations.
 
Nov 19, 2002
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Ok, let me tell you a little about our Mr. Redbourne.

He is a nutter, quite literally, he believes his mind has evolved to a state where he can see and understand the whole universe. He spoke of how he e-mailed NASA, the US goverment, and basically every country in the world to present his theories, and how he believed they were conspiring against them. To accept his thories, you have to throw out every experiment that has occured over the last 100 years. Literally, everything he presents goes against observed results. He doesn't believe in modern mathematics. If you've read his work, he believes that the mathematics of his thories should be left to the 'clerks', and not a great mind such as his.

As for his personal background, he's a retired industrial worker, with grade 12 mathematics. His farm went bust in 1990, and he went "a bit nuts", and ended up going to prison for 4 years (he doesn't say why). He was then transferred to a mental institution where he remained for another 2 years, after which time he says he bluffed his way out, because they were out to get him. All his words, not mine.

I really am genuinely interested in discussing any modern advances or new theories in physics, but I just can't take people like him seriously. If I seemed terse, it's because I don't suffer fools (and nutcases) gladly. Hopefully now that I've cleared this guy's background up, you'll do some rethinking.
 

f95toli

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: BaDaBooM
f95toli, Actually you did...
And electromagnetic waves are just that: Waves. Unless you want to measure particles because then they are photons, it depends on HOW you measure.
You said they ARE photons, and they ARE waves depending on how you measure... However you have since modified that by saying it BEHAVES as a photon or BEHAVES as a wave depending on how you measure and I can accept that. The rest I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. .

This is tricky and I know I was a bit unclear but I don't think I was contradicting myself. What I wrote is true: Particle or wave depends on the experiment. But how do I now if it is a particle or wave? From the behavior! That is the only criteria you can use in an experiment.
 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
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FB,
This is what I was looking for except you gave no sources. Please show where this information on him is, otherwise it has no weight to it. (links, etc.) He seems rather well informed on things like wave mechanics (not a simple topic) to simply be a nutcase. Though I've heard that sometimes the gap between intelligence and insanity is small.

f95toli,
Yes, this is the area I have trouble "buying". Perhaps because I am a realist... the glass is not half-full, nor is it half-empty, it has exactly 4 oz of liquid in it. I figure there must be a missing puzzle piece. There are similar properties between waves and particles... both can transfer energy. There are also differing properties between them, such as mass. However what brings my criticism is that many (I'd say most experiments) show it possessing defining properties of a wave, while a few experiments/theories show it as having mass. Redbourne's wave-frag of C/R waves seemed to be a possible piece of the missing puzzle piece I have been looking for. But of course that means there has to be a medium.....

As a side note, I think the reaction the term "aether" gets is interesting. However many top physicists have used the term "fabric of space" without ridicule. Why is this? Aren't these essentially the same thing? Maybe I'm wrong, but they seem to refer to the same thing.
 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
1,077
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Hmm... I have skipped ahead against my previous process of methodically going through his book and found a distribing section labeled conspiracy theory (As from my first post I just recently came across this book). This does lend some credence FB's pronouncement of having mental problems, but I still would like the links, or potions of the book where you got that information.

It is odd that a man with the determination to write such a book, that while contrary to current theories is fairly technical in nature, would make such strange statements. In reading I've noticed he tends to have a weird querky sense of humor, but this section seems to be a completely different tone. It seems the tone changes in few sections quite dramatically.

His basic contention of the M&M experiment is
I have discovered that the concept was flawed in that the phase will not change even with a Wind. The reason for no phase change is that wave compression / extension in a flowing wave medium exactly compensates for wavespeed changes caused by current velocity. The usual boat-on-water analogy is not valid because there is no compression /extension of the boat to compensate for boat velocity changes.

Now I know some wave mechanics as taught in college but am not an expert. Is this a valid statement? If not, why?
 
Nov 19, 2002
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Start here: http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cacheEKKphn9rTQC:www.astronomy.net/forums/blackholes/messages/5532.shtml+rayredbourne&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

And copy-shortcut pastes, then put them into google to retrieve the cache, the more posts you read from that guy, the more crazy he gets.

On to Ether V SpaceTime..
Ether was like a bizarre ocean that filled all of the Universe. Light travelled through it like waves on a pond - it was a substance that light would propogate through as a wave only, with no particle-like aspects. As Earth moved through the ether, the light would travel at different speeds.

Space-time is more like a map our Universe painted on. Light can travel as a particle or wave in any direction, but always goes at a set speed (commonly known as "the speed of light" -- clever name). Objects with mass (paint particles in this analogy) distort the paths taken by light (or any moving particle) in different ways, depending on the object's mass, charge,
and angular momentum.

This is how the M&M experiment disproved the existence of Ether, because if it existed, light would travel relative to our speed, but it doesn't. Thus there is no Ether.

On a more basic (complex?) level, ether was proposed as a physical compound that exists within the Universe, while space-time is the Universe itself.
 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
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Well, after further research he is, if nothing else, a very interesting character. I'm not quite sure what to make of him. He did post a link to a article that does show that there still maybe plenty of other forces to consider:

http://www.sundaytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F02%2F10%2Fwnasa10.xml

Anyway, as I said before though, I won't defend his theories... only his right to be heard. One thing is for sure, if he did happen to be right, the discovery channel would eat up his bizzare life and eccentric ways in their biography.
 

imgod2u

Senior member
Sep 16, 2000
993
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Actually, particle/wave duality is not specific to photons. Electrons have wave-like behavior as well. However, photons are packeted and quantized and they are particles. They have the particle/wave duality like almost (I think all) other particles.
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
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Well, that was an interesting read.....amazing how fast flame wars develop.. I have my own idea about who started it, but that's only a "theory."

Speaking of which, what BaDaBoom referred to as theories are postulates, or ideas. A theory is defined in science as a postulate/idea/concept which has been proven repeatedly by experimentation. It does not disprove any theory set forth from previous years. It can only limit their scope(i.e. microscopic vs macroscopic, "slow" vs "fast" velocities) and/or expand on previous theories. I do believe every theory also introduces new ideas or predicts the existence of new concepts (Maxwell's prediction of constant velocity for light, anti-particles predicted by somebody, I forget what equation, but the solution resulted in negative mass)

Everyone seems to like pointing to Einstein as an example. I've always heard he was a patent clerk, but I don't remember hearing of him being taught physics. I wouldn't be surprised if it were true or false. It is absolutely possible to publish university level work without the benefit of a high school diploma. After all, being given an education by teachers who preach textbooks or reading said textbooks on your own introduces the same information. A degree isn't just a paper handed out unscrupulously (Well, it was pretty much true up until the internet schools popped up). A degree is a certification that you have been educated and when you put forth an idea, it is based upon that education and not some willy nilly dream. It does not mean you are right and the hillbilly next door is wrong. It only provides background information.

Anyways, I haven't read Rebourne's page, I don't intend to, and I do realize this will weaken my position, but I really don't care. I'll be the first to admit I've become pretty biased against his arguments, given the information extracted/scanned from all the previous posts.

About particle/wave duality, BaDaBoom put it forward best, even though he admitted to not understanding/accepting it at all. The glass with 4 oz in it is both half-full and half-empty at the same time, much like matter exhibits wave(no mass) and particle (all mass) behavior depending on how you look at it. If you look at how full the glass is, you measure the fluid in there. If you measure how empty the glass is, you measure the space in there. It all depends on how you look at the glass or observe its behavior.

Personally, having matter exhibit particle and wave behavior makes a lot of sense to me. If you've studied just plain radio waves, which I'm sure some will say is purely wave and no particle behavior at all, and then look at life in general, it just falls into place, really, especially if you couple it with chaos theory. Ever watch a crowd at, say, the stadium walking to their seats? Ever hear of the phrase "history repeats itself"? Or, much better, take some time when driving and actually pay attention to the cars around you. Have you ever noticed that traffic moves in clumps?

If you're going to turn the entire field of physics upside down, you'd better be prepared to be ridiculed even if you bring solid evidence. The more revolutionary the idea, the longer it takes for that idea to be proved, and even longer before it's repeated experimentally again and again until all the data accumulates to the point where your postulate is taken seriously and a new theory is accepted.

The greatest example of our time of postulates shot down in the face of experimental evidence is the idea of cold fusion. Not only has it never been repeated experimentally, but the original paper was dissected and pretty much torn to tatters because it was highly prone to error. In fact, it is now generally accepted that the idea of cold fusion was spawned from looking at the data and not taking into account the error the experimenters introduced and overlooked in their rush to publish such a groundbreaking proposal.

There are a couple other examples, including one by a con artist in the United States who ended up with millions of dollars in research funding for an experimental data transmission protocol over regular phone lines that could transmit full motion video. It was demonstrated many times by the inventor, but nobody could touch the apparatus except the inventor himself. Nobody could examine it, it was not given to any third party research labs for independent verification, none of the standard protocols were followed. In the end, someone got curious/frustrated, and looked in the PC that was receiving full motion video and found a VCR hooked up to a TV.

What's the moral of this whole rant? Don't believe everything everyone tells you. This doesn't just apply to new, radical ideas, but old ones as well. New ideas have a tendency to fall flat on their face, and old theories don't encompass every situation universally. Believe what you want, but take everything with a grain of salt. In the end, the guy toting the loaded AK-47 will probably win against the Neanderthaal with the rock, but lose against the guy driving the tank. The only true measure of whether an idea or a mathematical explanation for a phenomenon is true is whether it can be applied and have it work.

That said, the original post asked a simple question:
electromagnetic waves are movement in... what?

I've heard a few different answers ranging from ether to nothing at all, electromagnetic waves don't "move" per se, they just seem to move.
The best explanation I've heard comes from a comment I read in a book on string theory. The author claimed that if given Maxwell's equations, which are so utterly unintuitive none of my physics professors had them memorized, if you introduce a fifth dimension, the equations collapse into simpler forms.

Mathematics, when proven correctly, is never wrong. If it is wrong, either the derivation is incorrect, the procedure is incorrect, or the whole foundation of mathematics needs revision. How the results are interpreted is up to the observer, and seems to be a great example of the infamous Schroedinger's cat.
 

BaDaBooM

Golden Member
May 3, 2000
1,077
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Given the last post, I have a question. If this is the wrong place, then I will repost somewhere else, just let me know. I just want the more scientific people here to see it and it is an honest question, not an argument for the previous debating. I figure you all have very high skepticism (not necessarily bad) but in the end are reasonable so you would be a good audience.

Given this hypothetical situation, how should someone proceed? Many great advancements come from Universities/Businesses. However suppose an independent individual were to develop/invent/discover a finding of global scale; something that would turn physics or whatever field upsidedown and completely change the world, which of course would mean it would get lots of skepticism and even ridicule. Suppose this individual used their own money and approached it with the same criticism as a skeptic, so that they KNOW it is the real deal. But, with so many scammers and crackpots, how do they credibly convince the real world while maintaining their rights to it, as an individual? My first step would be to get a patent/copyright, but that doesn't convince the world that works. There have been stories of powerful parties that try to keep things quiet, but I don't know whether this is a real concern or not. What do you do? Try to announce it to the press and provide secure demonstrations? Do you quietly present it to businesses to advance it? Do you try to get other scientists to believe you and back you up? All this seems very difficult, especially if you just an individual and are not considered "elite" enough to make such an discovery/invention/etc. Also there are always those out to screw you. What do you think?
 
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