Elevating the atheism/religion discussion

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
I think it would be good to have something to discuss, to get some knowledge out there on both sides for better or worse.

So I'd like to point everyone to a documentary on PBS titled God in America

The part I thought reminded me of discussions on this board are in Episode 4: A New light beginning at the 40:00 (minute) mark. You don't have to watch after that for any designated amount of time but I guarantee it won't disappoint. Make it full screen, sit back and relax, it will take up to 20 minutes tops but is wholly unnecessarily to watch until the end since I understand people are busy.

So to start after watching the video how do you feel about the creation stories?

I'm curious why the atheists, if they reject literal interpretation jump straight to rejecting all religion?

If Bryan went on his speaking tour do you think things would be different today? How do you feel about the quote at 50:00?
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
I'm curious why the atheists, if they reject literal interpretation jump straight to rejecting all religion?

I intend to watch the video and have more to say, but in response to the above I can say that discarding the Christian religion had nothing to do with the problems of literal interpretations of the bible, per se, for me.
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,558
736
136
So to start after watching the video how do you feel about the creation stories?

I watched the video. It didn't change my take on the biblical story of creation. It's as good a story (or theory?) as you could reasonably expect given what was known (and unknown) at the time it was authored. What becomes troubling is when believers insist on viewing that creation story as the literal, unalterable, god's truth. It sets us up for the inevitable conflict when new evidence and improving scientific theories (such as evolution) are branded as heretical by at least some fundamentalist believers. To my way of thinking, a more reasonable religious belief stays flexible enough to accept and incorporate what science tells us about the physical world. IMHO believers should try to see science (and evolution) as adding to his glory by giving us all a better appreciation for the way god created the universe.

I'm curious why the atheists, if they reject literal interpretation jump straight to rejecting all religion?

That's not a jump that I make. Putting the whole old testament aside, there still isn't anywhere close to enough evidence to convince me that I should accept as true any of the many Christian (or non-Christian) beliefs in the supernatural. As the saying goes, we all reject most religious beliefs; I just reject one more than you do.

Still waiting for that bolt of faith from above. :whiste:

If Bryan went on his speaking tour do you think things would be different today? How do you feel about the quote at 50:00?

I have no idea what impact his speaking tour might have had. In any event, it isn't as if the Scopes trial settled the matter once and for all. Here's the link to the PBS/NOVA special on the "intelligent design" trial:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/intelligent-design-trial.html

It's two hours long, so only for the non-busy among us

I assume that the quote you are referring to is about the possible moral collapse if people choose science over religion. To me, that statement highlights the danger that religions face if their leaders choose to oppose rather than accept (and put in religious context?) what science reveals about the universe.

Let's see how long we can keep this thread civil.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
I'm curious why the atheists, if they reject literal interpretation jump straight to rejecting all religion?

Nice thread. I am going to make some lunch and watch it but I feel like you started out on the wrong foot.

You have created a link between atheists and literal interpretation. I get the impression you believe that anyone who doesn't believe in the Bible is an atheist.

There is a large area between being a fundamentalist christian who believes in creationism/literal interpretation and being a hardcore angry atheist.

This is really important for you to understand. All too often people label each other and in this section it is very poor form. I AM NOT AN ATHEIST. Yet I am often called one if I question Christianity. That's not constructive.

More important to understand is that there is a difference between faith and religion. Organized religion is not required of people to have faith. So rejecting ALL religion does not make someone an atheist.

You can believe in a higher power without religion.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
So to start after watching the video how do you feel about the creation stories?

What creation stories? That clip was about the monkey trials. It clearly showed, as they said, how ignorant and stupid fundamentalists were and forced them to either give up on their crazy ideas and join the modern world or go underground. Thus a subculture of fundamentalists was born in the USA that still exists today.

If Bryan went on his speaking tour do you think things would be different today? How do you feel about the quote at 50:00?

Why would they be different? The quote clearly illustrates the problem. They wanted evolution to be considered illegal in schools because they didn't understand that science and faith are two separate things. They tried to say that they understood it and could just hocus pocus everything into existence and consider that a good explanation, but when push came to shove they were incredibly ignorant and inconsistent. They feared the wrath of god and felt that science threatened their morality and righteousness. Ignorance.

Science is consistent. It has a method. Religion does not and that's the problem. Science does not say that there is no God. It has nothing to say on the subject. Yet fundamentalists fear it and anything that disproves their literal interpretation of the bible - which is easily done.

Having a stupid man tour the USA would not have convinced anyone of anything. All it would have done is reinforce people's already existing opinions. He was already on the losing end of public opinion. He could have potentially toured some country towns but he would have been heckled out of the cities and laughed at. It would be no different than Pat Robertson touring the USA today.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
I AM NOT AN ATHEIST. Yet I am often called one if I question Christianity. That's not constructive.


You can believe in a higher power without religion.

Its a black and white issue. You are either blessed with the truth of Jesus, or you are lost, atheist or not. You may not be an atheist, but its all the same. Your "spirituality" is just a cute attempt to get it right, but you failed. Maybe your heart has waxed cold or maybe God isn't ready to show you his truth. Who knows why you are lost, that's between you and God. You better get it right pretty soon or else you fail the test of faith and then you are in God's hands. Good luck, my lost friend. Go Christian or go home brother.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Originally Posted by AViking
I AM NOT AN ATHEIST. Yet I am often called one if I question Christianity. That's not constructive.


You can believe in a higher power without religion.
It`s alright for Christians to question from time to time what they believe. In fact I think its a healthy exercise.

So what are you......
So you believe in something......

I find that statement an attempt to appease Christians and atheists alike.

You can believe in a higher power without religion. -- could this be political correctness at its finest??
 

jhbball

Platinum Member
Mar 20, 2002
2,917
23
81
Its a black and white issue. You are either blessed with the truth of Jesus, or you are lost, atheist or not. You may not be an atheist, but its all the same. Your "spirituality" is just a cute attempt to get it right, but you failed. Maybe your heart has waxed cold or maybe God isn't ready to show you his truth. Who knows why you are lost, that's between you and God. You better get it right pretty soon or else you fail the test of faith and then you are in God's hands. Good luck, my lost friend. Go Christian or go home brother.

Please post your examples of God showing you his truth.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Its a black and white issue. You are either blessed with the truth of Jesus, or you are lost, atheist or not. You may not be an atheist, but its all the same. Your "spirituality" is just a cute attempt to get it right, but you failed. Maybe your heart has waxed cold or maybe God isn't ready to show you his truth. Who knows why you are lost, that's between you and God. You better get it right pretty soon or else you fail the test of faith and then you are in God's hands. Good luck, my lost friend. Go Christian or go home brother.


So basically, "My invisible buddy is better than your invisible friend." Ok...
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
Its a black and white issue. You are either blessed with the truth of Jesus, or you are lost, atheist or not. You may not be an atheist, but its all the same. Your "spirituality" is just a cute attempt to get it right, but you failed. Maybe your heart has waxed cold or maybe God isn't ready to show you his truth. Who knows why you are lost, that's between you and God. You better get it right pretty soon or else you fail the test of faith and then you are in God's hands. Good luck, my lost friend. Go Christian or go home brother.

This is the discussion section. What are you doing here?
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
It`s alright for Christians to question from time to time what they believe. In fact I think its a healthy exercise.

So what are you......
So you believe in something......

I find that statement an attempt to appease Christians and atheists alike.

You can believe in a higher power without religion. -- could this be political correctness at its finest??

What is politically correct about it? Why do you say that you can't be spiritual without religion? I'm talking about organized religion if that makes things clearer for you.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
This is the discussion section. What are you doing here?

I'm painting you a crystal clear picture of what it feels like to be in "the know". I used to be a Christian and I still remember how I viewed others, and I shared that with you. I am atheist now. You will gain no brownie points for declaring your belief in a higher power or being spiritual or whatever. You are not Christian = you are WRONG, period.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
What is politically correct about it? Why do you say that you can't be spiritual without religion? I'm talking about organized religion if that makes things clearer for you.
say what you mean......now that is very understandable!!
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,558
736
136
Its a black and white issue. You are either blessed with the truth of Jesus, or you are lost, atheist or not. You may not be an atheist, but its all the same. Your "spirituality" is just a cute attempt to get it right, but you failed. Maybe your heart has waxed cold or maybe God isn't ready to show you his truth. Who knows why you are lost, that's between you and God. You better get it right pretty soon or else you fail the test of faith and then you are in God's hands. Good luck, my lost friend. Go Christian or go home brother.

Well I guess civility isn't going to last very long.

Too bad you haven't any thoughts to contribute on the OP's topic.

EDIT: Okay, I didn't appreciate your post as an attempt to "paint a picture". It'd still be better, perhaps, to stay closer to the topic.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
I'm curious why the atheists, if they reject literal interpretation jump straight to rejecting all religion?

So, I'm at work and can't watch the video right now, but will later. I wanted, however, to comment on the quoted remark. First, as others said, rejecting literal interpretation of the bible can not lead one to reject all religion, only Abrahamic traditions.

So, having cleared that up, why does rejecting the literal interpretation of the bible lead me to rejecting the entire Abrahamic religions? Because they are based on the bible and only have the bible for knowledge of the religion. If I discount the only source of knowledge of the religion then why would I not discount the religion?

If the bible is not literal then what can I really take from it? How do I determine what parts are literal and which parts are metaphorical? Is the God also metaphorical? I don't know. And that leave me having to trust another person to interpret the book for me. Another person that history has shown is very likely to lie to me for personal gain.
 
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crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
0
0
I'm curious why the atheists, if they reject literal interpretation jump straight to rejecting all religion?

I think most Atheists are the other way around. We see no reason to believe in God, thus any literal interpretation of a religious text seems absurd.

There are plenty of people that reject literal interpretations of religious texts without rejecting a specific religion. In fact, in the developed world they are the majority of religious people.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
I'm curious why the atheists, if they reject literal interpretation jump straight to rejecting all religion?

Its the mentality, that's why. If I reject a literal interpretation of astrology, why would I auto-reject palm reading? Because its ALL BS. I mean all of it. Walking on water, son of god, palm reading, psychics, ghosts, spirits, demons, prophecy, the whole damn lot is wholesale garbage. I notice that many people who are able to believe in one piece of garbage, chances are they believe in other garbage as well. It comes with the territory.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
I think most Atheists are the other way around. We see no reason to believe in God, thus any literal interpretation of a religious text seems absurd.

There are plenty of people that reject literal interpretations of religious texts without rejecting a specific religion. In fact, in the developed world they are the majority of religious people.

If there is no reason to believe in God, what reason is there to reject God?
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
0
0
If there is no reason to believe in God, what reason is there to reject God?

There is none. By the same token, there is no reason to reject 100,000 Gods. If I told you that there were an invisible, undetectable unicorn next to you, you likely wouldn't believe me by the simple fact that you have no reason to accept its presence. You couldn't prove me wrong, though.

For any context outside of religion, a complete lack of evidence naturally leaves the observer in a state of unbelief. That is, if there's no reason to believe something exists, we assume it doesn't. I don't see any reason to apply a different standard to the existence of God(s), so I treat it the same way.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
There is none. By the same token, there is no reason to reject 100,000 Gods.

Please don't get offended by this, but this is bull***, and your non-reason is bull***.

You cannot say you have no reason to reject God, while demanding theists provide reasons why they accept God. I have a reason to reject other gods, and that reason being that the God I choose to worship gives what I precieve as evidence for his existence and is backed by more convincing history.

You have no reason, because there is no reason.

You normally present sounds reasoning, but these run-of-the-mill, atheistic bull****, question-dodging, unicorn analogies were never convincing, nor are they acceptable arguments for those who would like to be convinced that your rejection of a Creator is backed by sound, convincing reasoning.

So your lack of belief is totally arbitrary, for no reason, and thus, is foundation-less and can be completely disregarded.


 
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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
How can you interpret the Bible if you don't have a historical reference and understand who wrote which book and who received the writing. Some people say the Earth was created in 6 days but it does not say that in the Bible. Many things are over simplified in the Bible. First read the Bible from cover to cover and then come back.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
0
0
Please don't get offended by this, but this is bullshit, and your non-reason is bullshit.

You cannot say you have no reason to reject God, while demanding theists provide reasons why they accept God. I have a reason to reject other gods, and that reason being that the God I choose to worship gives what I precieve as evidence for his existence and is backed by more convincing history.

You have no reason, because there is no reason.

You normally present sounds reasoning, but this run-of-the-mill, atheistic bullshit, question-dodging, unicorn analogies were never convincing, nor are they acceptable arguments for those who would like to be convinced that your rejection of a Creator is backed by sound, convincing reasoning.

So your lack of belief is totally arbitrary, for no reason, and thus, is foundation-less and can be completely disregarded.



I didn't mean the unicorn reference to be flippant, and I apologize that you find it so. I was trying to convey the level of abstraction that a supreme being has from anything that I am able to observe in a context that anyone would understand.

You have to understand that I don't have any evidence to offer you that God doesn't exist. I do not even mean to suggest that God does not or cannot exist. If you believe that there is reason to believe in God, I can offer you nothing to dissuade you except my disagreements with that evidence. I can understand that puts you in a frustrating position, but it's the way I treat any other idea.

I'll try another approach that will hopefully be less offensive to you. If you told me that bread caused cancer, I would ask to see the evidence, and would demand that such evidence be in a form that anyone could reproduce in a falsifiable test. Believe it or not, it's actually not possible to demonstrate that bread doesn't cause cancer. No matter how large my sample size, there's always the finite probability that my conclusions are wrong, or that the effect is smaller than my margin of error. Without evidence affirming a causal relationship, though, I will keep eating my bread. Likewise, until I have a real firm reason to believe in a God, I'll continue to live as if one isn't there. (I hope you don't find that analogy rude. I really don't mean it as such.)

Perhaps part of the difficulty in explaining my position is the term "atheist". I am limited a little bit by the politics of the English language. "Atheist" is often colloquially understood to mean "sure there is no God", but you actually won't find that many atheists who are ready to make that claim. Perhaps "agnostic" is a more accurate term, but it comes with connotations of being wishy-washy and a sense that the agnostic is uncertain in their position, whereas I'm pretty solidly in mine. "Humanist" is another term that is often used, most often by those wishing to define themselves as for something rather than against something, but I don't really love that term as a world-view, either, as humanity is such a small, insignificant part of this universe. I could invent a new term that I define my way, but that'll just confuse everyone. So I'm stuck, unfortunately, and use what term I find most easily recognizable.

One other aspect that I don't want to underplay, though, has to do with a line from the above:

I have a reason to reject other gods, and that reason being that the God I choose to worship gives what I perceive as evidence for his existence and is backed by more convincing history.
There is a "feeling" of divine presence that many have when looking at the world. My wife will stand at the edge of a cliff, look out at the valley, and see the wonder of God. I see the incredibly interesting outcomes of highly complex, dynamic systems (plate tectonics, lava floes, erosion, etc.). I stand in wonder, but at something very different. Does that fundamentally invalidate her point of view? Not at all, but it remains one that is unconvincing to me, and I don't know of a way to reconcile that difference.

As for the history comment, I stayed away from those discussions for the most part because I feel they miss the point. Most of the discussion centered on whether historical accounts of events were accurate, but did not ever confront the divine nature of those events. Whether Jesus was a real person does not tell me much about whether he was truly the son of God.
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
I didn't mean the unicorn reference to be flippant, and I apologize that you find it so.

You're fine, but the analogy isn't as flippant as it avoids the question.

You have to understand that I don't have any evidence to offer you that God doesn't exist.

This, I accept and understand and wasn't what I was looking for. You don't have to give me evidence (even if there was any), I just really wanted a reason.

I'll try another approach that will hopefully be less offensive to you. If you told me that bread caused cancer, I would ask to see the evidence, and would demand that such evidence be in a form that anyone could reproduce in a falsifiable test. Believe it or not, it's actually not possible to demonstrate that bread doesn't cause cancer. No matter how large my sample size, there's always the finite probability that my conclusions are wrong, or that the effect is smaller than my margin of error. Without evidence affirming a causal relationship, though, I will keep eating my bread. Likewise, until I have a real firm reason to believe in a God, I'll continue to live as if one isn't there. (I hope you don't find that analogy rude. I really don't mean it as such.)

I understand, but I did once explain why these kind of analogies are not applicable. Firstly, they are arbitrary. You cannot make something up (as in the case with unicorns and bread causing cancer) and try to compare that with something that has a deep, long history behind it, like belief in God. Those persons who wrote their 'alleged' experiences with the supernatrual obviously said they had reasons....those reasons must be considered on their own merits. Even if you did find a deep histroy with belief in invisible Unicorns, falsifying that doesn't automatically falisfy the existence of God.



There is a "feeling" of divine presence that many have when looking at the world. My wife will stand at the edge of a cliff, look out at the valley, and see the wonder of God. I see the incredibly interesting outcomes of highly complex, dynamic systems (plate tectonics, lava floes, erosion, etc.). I stand in wonder, but at something very different. Does that fundamentally invalidate her point of view? Not at all, but it remains one that is unconvincing to me, and I don't know of a way to reconcile that difference

I'm sorry for not being clear. No, I don't believe in feelings of divine presence, as feelings are emotional, and emotions aren't evidence...but what I mean is that when I look at things, I can see intelligence behind it...depending on what I am looking at.

As for the history comment, I stayed away from those discussions for the most part because I feel they miss the point. Most of the discussion centered on whether historical accounts of events were accurate, but did not ever confront the divine nature of those events. Whether Jesus was a real person does not tell me much about whether he was truly the son of God.

I agree. Jesus existing isn't evidence he was the Son of God. But what it does prove is that the Bible is being truthful, and when I see that it is telling me the truth about something, then I know I can trust it when it comes to other things.

At times, too...this is when faith becomes important, because we cannot reproduce miracles, etc. However, we need reasons to believe they can and have happened, thus, making faith stronger and easier.
 

jhbball

Platinum Member
Mar 20, 2002
2,917
23
81
You're fine, but the analogy isn't as flippant as it avoids the question.



This, I accept and understand and wasn't what I was looking for. You don't have to give me evidence (even if there was any), I just really wanted a reason.



I understand, but I did once explain why these kind of analogies are not applicable. Firstly, they are arbitrary. You cannot make something up (as in the case with unicorns and bread causing cancer) and try to compare that with something that has a deep, long history behind it, like belief in God. Those persons who wrote their 'alleged' experiences with the supernatrual obviously said they had reasons....those reasons must be considered on their own merits. Even if you did find a deep histroy with belief in invisible Unicorns, falsifying that doesn't automatically falisfy the existence of God.





I'm sorry for not being clear. No, I don't believe in feelings of divine presence, as feelings are emotional, and emotions aren't evidence...but what I mean is that when I look at things, I can see intelligence behind it...depending on what I am looking at.



I agree. Jesus existing isn't evidence he was the Son of God. But what it does prove is that the Bible is being truthful, and when I see that it is telling me the truth about something, then I know I can trust it when it comes to other things.

At times, too...this is when faith becomes important, because we cannot reproduce miracles, etc. However, we need reasons to believe they can and have happened, thus, making faith stronger and easier.

Would you apply the same "well, some of it is true, so the rest of it is true as well" to other religions as well?
 
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