I don't think you are asking an honest question but instead for other purposes. However, I will play along.
God's creation man is curious. Far from being a puppet it is quite apparent Man is anything but. All God expects is our love. Something that should be so easy but in truth is so difficult for us.
as opposed to all the evidence Atheists provide that back up their assertion there is no God....ummm.......ok....and sadly that is all the 'evidence' christians seem to be able to provide.
So your god does not have a plan then? Or does he?
Thanks for the non-answer.
Yeah, i don't disagree.When those who made the claims, supported those claims upon things that are demonstrably false, there is nothing supporting their claim in the first place. I am demonstrably real and have existence, this "god" has never been demonstrated to exist. That is who I am and why I can doubt any of the claims made by other Humans.
I don't think Russel's Teapot applies to anything I have said, since I don't claim the inability to prove God means he exists. I simply hold athiests to the same standard as thiests.PingviN said:You can't demand that someone proves a negative and seriously argue that not being able to prove a positive is the same. We've been over Russel's Teapot already, so I don't need to go there again.
I would argue you can't disprove to ANYONE that Moses parted the seas if you assume we live in a world with a God. Sure, if you start with the assumption that there is no God, then we might be able to prove it.We can't, yet, disprove a divine being somewhere in the universe (or that is the universe. Or isn't the universe). We can't disprove, in a way that satisfies a religious person, that Moses parted the seas, because a miracle does not play by the laws of physics. It's magic.
I agree.If you claim God exist, burden of proof is on you.
If you claim dragons exist, the burden of proof is on you.
If you claim you can cure cancer with a new drug, the burden of proof is on you.
They are both rational. You can prove positives and you can prove negatives. Proofs in the physical world are never 100% certain, so there is always some chance your proof is incomplete. However, not being able to prove a negative or a positive does not imply the other. It gives you no new information. You are simply in the same place you started with.If you hold religious claims to the same standards as other claims, religion wont hold up. People of faith demand negatives to be proven, atheists demand positives to be proven. The one is irrational and the other is rational.
as opposed to all the evidence Atheists provide that back up their assertion there is no God....ummm.......ok....
nice try......disprove Christianity.......you can`t....Then how did you choose your god? Since all of them seem to have the same lack of evidence, how do you know you have it right?
Secondly, that way of thinking doesn't make sense. We don't go around trying to prove that unicorns don't exist. There is no evidence, so we assume them to be fictional. There is no evidence that in our planet's core there is a civilization of trolls, so we assume that to be nothing more than a product of human imagination. We don't try and prove they don't exist. I see no evidence for muhammad being allah's prophet and islam being the correct religion, so you and I assume it to be untrue. Christianity has no credible evidence to help prove it's miraculous stories and a it's handbook of god's word is full of inaccuracies and contradictions, so again... well, you can connect the dots on where I was going.
I don't see how christianity gets special treatment by not using the same logic we would use when considering any other miraculous or outrageous claims.
nice try......disprove Christianity.......you can`t....
yet I will admit to you I cannot prove Christianity in any manner that you would find agreeable or acceptable. To other Christians that is not an issue!
If I did try to prove Christianity to you , you would try to use some Atheist talking point!1
As was said earlier -- You know for certain God exists? prove it
You know for certain God does not exist? prove it
I don't think Russel's Teapot applies to anything I have said, since I don't claim the inability to prove God means he exists. I simply hold athiests to the same standard as thiests.
You know for certain God exists? prove it
You know for certain God does not exist? prove it
The true scientist's answer is "I have no idea, and it's not provable either way"
I would argue you can't disprove to ANYONE that Moses parted the seas if you assume we live in a world with a God. Sure, if you start with the assumption that there is no God, then we might be able to prove it.
They are both rational. You can prove positives and you can prove negatives. Proofs in the physical world are never 100% certain, so there is always some chance your proof is incomplete. However, not being able to prove a negative or a positive does not imply the other. It gives you no new information. You are simply in the same place you started with.
If you hold religious claims to the same standards as other claims, then you're journey ends very quickly. Here are the steps you go through:
1) Can I apply any scientific test to religion?
That's it, that's the only test. It fails, you cannot apply any scientific test to religion. It doesn't make sense. Science require an indiscriminate world where things are theoretically measurable. Religion is grounded on the assumption that the mechanical cold universe that science requires to be the ultimate truth does not exist. Furthermore there is some entity, possibly outside the universe, the intentions of which, we will never know which can change anything at any time, and with discrimination (no negative connotations implied).
I do not understand. This is a proof via contradiction. Assume God exists, no contradiction arrises. I am not proving he exists, just showing that it's not impossible. Many people will try to prove that God does not exist via some scientific method, where they assume God exists (this part is often not explicite in their arguments) and how a contradiction arrises with the scientific method. but my argument is that using any scientific method is not valid if you assume a God exists. If you immediately start off with the assumption that God does not exist, then you can use the scientific method all you want, and you also do not come to any contradiction.If you assume the position that there is a God capable of giving humans the power to part the seas, you need to prove that God exists.
The inability to prove Santa Claus does not exist is not because it's negative, it's because you've setup a proof that is not provable. You say it's impossible to prove that he does not exist, I claim it's equally impossible to prove that he does exist. Say you see "Santa Claus" walking around on your roof. I will now claim that he is actually not Santa Claus, but a perfectly natural phenomen that exists within our laws of physics and fully explainable by our current laws. Assume he violates our laws somehow, I now claim that our laws are simply incomplete, and that we are now knowledge enough about our own natural Universe.No, they are not. You can prove some negatives. If I say I'm married to the Queen of England, you can factually prove that I'm not. If I claim that Santa Claus exists, you wont be able to scientifically prove otherwise, which places the burden on me. Not being able to prove a negative does not give the positive merit.
unfounded assumption? What makes you think the lack of a God is any more founded? Your prior experiences? History? Science? I claim all of these things are meaningless when facing the concept of God. And so the idea that it is "unfounded" is based on the assumption that there is no God to begin with, and so you haven't tried the other case. Now assume there is a "God".Like you say, religion is grounded in the [unfounded] assumption that a God exists. An atheist simply believes that the positive must be proven or the argument lacks merit.
even for you. it is up to each of us if we choose to follow it or not
as opposed to all the evidence Atheists provide that back up their assertion there is no God....ummm.......ok....
I do not understand. This is a proof via contradiction. Assume God exists, no contradiction arrises. I am not proving he exists, just showing that it's not impossible. Many people will try to prove that God does not exist via some scientific method, where they assume God exists (this part is often not explicite in their arguments) and how a contradiction arrises with the scientific method. but my argument is that using any scientific method is not valid if you assume a God exists. If you immediately start off with the assumption that God does not exist, then you can use the scientific method all you want, and you also do not come to any contradiction.
so let me get this straight..just because something has never ever happened before according to active as well as retired IRS agents...you claim that it was going to happen anyways.....and that the testimony of thoise who I talkeds with including experts is not valid proof of a "miracle"?? Ohh,,yeas I forgot your an atheist. If you look hard enough you can find a way to discredit other people who believe.Could you share your miracle story again? (the one about the reduced tax bill, lol).
so let me get this straight..just because something has never ever happened before according to active as well as retired IRS agents...you claim that it was going to happen anyways.....and that the testimony of thoise who I talkeds with including experts is not valid proof of a "miracle"?? Ohh,,yeas I forgot your an atheist. If you look hard enough you can find a way to discredit other people who believe.
The problem with you is that you fail to recognize that I was told that in the particular set of circumstances that I described, for things to happen like they did...I was told by active and retired professionals in the TAX field, that things never happen that way!! yet they did.....
yet you make fun of and place yourself in the position to know more that professionals in the Tax field as well as professionals who work for the IRS......
So does that make your responses idiotic or ignorant......I would guess both!!
let me give you an example of what I would consider to be an answer to prayer with no explainable other outcome!
True story --
I had a friend who left the country to go to England! I collected her mail and would open them for her when she communicated via Skype!
Well all her accounts were frozen by the Federal tax people.
Seems she owed over $12,000 in back taxes.
She called the tax people and managed to get her accounts unfrozen.
Then she asked me to pray that this matter will get solved.
Then 3 days later, it took her that long to get a line through to speak to a real person.
Seems she did owe the money and they wanted the money now and because it was over 7 years ago she could not set up a payment plan via the internet.
During the same call she asked to speak to a supervisor. The supervisor informed her that she did not owe the $12, 000 and than she owed only $6,000. She asked how did that happen?
It seems that during the 3 days that we had been praying the government deducted money that was owed her from the past.
Now it gets better.......
I being a stubborn person went online and using information that she gave me tried to set up a payment online.......well I succeeded......and when the total that she owed came on the screen she now owed get this $1,500. needed less to say she made 3 payments as was done with the whole thing!
Now there is a retired IRS agent who has a very successful Tax office locally who is also a friend of mine. I related the story to him. he said that had never happened in a 30years that he had worked fore the IRS. In fact when he heard what I told him he asked me to bring my friend by when she comes back from England.
Well they met and she allowed him to make some calls to verify what had happened.
he was besides himself......again everyone he talked to about this had told him there must be some mistake, this never ever happens. Well to this day I claim this as being an answer to prayer!!
Discuss....
You can believe what you will and reduce it to getting a bill reduced....Wow, if that's the story I don't know what to say. That is so very un-miraculous to me. I've had bills get reduced too. :/ Today 21,000 children will die. Many of their mothers and fathers and family members praying for their beloved child to live only to have god turn away from those requests. But a woman owes some tax money, that's where the miracles are happening. The christian god can't cure a toddler's leukemia but can help some random rich woman with her tax bill. Awesome.
Wow, if that's the story I don't know what to say. That is so very un-miraculous to me. <-- typical response to what I posted..even with written proof you would spout the same caca!!
and family members praying for their beloved child to live only to have god turn away from those requests. <-- who are you to question God.....other than an Atheist??Whose to say that God has to answer all requests? Who is to say there is not a reason why God did not answer the request?
But a woman owes some tax money, that's where the miracles are happening. <-- Miracles are not limited to those in poverty or the elderly or people who are in bad situations....what your point?
I assume you mean flying spaghetti monster (had to google that one!).Th FSM exists, but part of its' qualities is that it is not provable. Therefor the FSM exists.
The parts where I was saying "assume God exists" were for the sake of argument.PingviN said:Why would you assume God exists? This is the part I do not get. Sure you can assume God exists, but why would you? Because religious dogma says so?
We have scientific theories that offers explanation to mysteries without having to resort to an unknowable, unprovable deity, why wouldn't these - to a rational mind - weigh more heavily.
I skipped the rest of your post because I think this is the core argument
Atheists are so engulfed in their messed up beliefs that there aren't many degrees of separation between you guys and this.
Oh look its almost as if, when a belief gets big enough, there are people who do something stupid and make it look bad. Maybe I should be like you guys and hold everyone who is an atheist accountable. But I don't do that. Just thought it was ironic. Like Christians are the only people on the planet to take something too far. Protip: you guys are people too.
*snip*
Wow, if that's the story I don't know what to say. That is so very un-miraculous to me. I've had bills get reduced too. :/ Today 21,000 children will die. Many of their mothers and fathers and family members praying for their beloved child to live only to have god turn away from those requests. But a woman owes some tax money, that's where the miracles are happening. The christian god can't cure a toddler's leukemia but can help some random rich woman with her tax bill. Awesome.