Elevating the atheism/religion discussion

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alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
In the US, no one can impose religious restrictions on another person. It is part of our Bill of Rights specifically the First Amendment.

Actually the 1st Amendment states that Congress cannot impose restrictions.

Also, this forum and it's threads are open to any registered member to comment or create threads. sandorski has every right, according to forum rules, to post responses. His location or citizenship has nothing to do with it.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Actually the 1st Amendment states that Congress cannot impose restrictions.

exactly brainiac. That is why sandorski's comments are non-sensical. no individual can impose their religious will on another individual including through law
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
126
exactly brainiac. That is why sandorski's comments are non-sensical. no individual can impose their religious will on another individual including through law

My comments are not non-sensical in the least. There is a constant push to force Religion into places it doesn't belong.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
exactly brainiac. That is why sandorski's comments are non-sensical. no individual can impose their religious will on another individual including through law


im·pose
imˈpōz/Submit
verb
1.
force (something unwelcome or unfamiliar) to be accepted or put in place.
"the decision was theirs and was not imposed on them by others"
synonyms: foist, force, inflict, press, urge; More
forcibly put (a restriction) in place.
"sanctions imposed on South Africa"
require (a duty, charge, or penalty) to be undertaken or paid.
synonyms: levy, charge, apply, enforce; More
exert firm control over something.
"the director was unable to impose himself on the production"
2.
take advantage of someone by demanding their attention or commitment.
"she realized that she had imposed on Miss Hatherby's kindness"
synonyms: take advantage of, exploit, take liberties with, treat unfairly


You could argue that jehova's witnesses knocking on your door are imposing, I certainly never came looking for them. A buddy from work's brother tried to push a deathbed conversion on their father, is that imposing? I'm sure the African slaves felt somewhat imposed on when the slave trade was alive and well and kept that way under the 'justification' of the bible.

You're arguing semantics at best. As I said earlier, we shouldn't forget about how christianity acted when it had power. How many atheists have been forcibly converted? How many christians... millions?
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
im·pose
imˈpōz/Submit
verb
1.
force (something unwelcome or unfamiliar) to be accepted or put in place.
"the decision was theirs and was not imposed on them by others"
synonyms: foist, force, inflict, press, urge; More
forcibly put (a restriction) in place.
"sanctions imposed on South Africa"
require (a duty, charge, or penalty) to be undertaken or paid.
synonyms: levy, charge, apply, enforce; More
exert firm control over something.
"the director was unable to impose himself on the production"
2.
take advantage of someone by demanding their attention or commitment.
"she realized that she had imposed on Miss Hatherby's kindness"
synonyms: take advantage of, exploit, take liberties with, treat unfairly


You could argue that jehova's witnesses knocking on your door are imposing, I certainly never came looking for them. A buddy from work's brother tried to push a deathbed conversion on their father, is that imposing? I'm sure the African slaves felt somewhat imposed on when the slave trade was alive and well and kept that way under the 'justification' of the bible.

You're arguing semantics at best. As I said earlier, we shouldn't forget about how christianity acted when it had power. How many atheists have been forcibly converted? How many christians... millions?

look who is actually arguing semantics. Sorry, I will advocate for the things I think are right. Deal with it. It is what we call a free country. If you take your position, any law is "imposing" by someone or some group.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
My comments are not non-sensical in the least. There is a constant push to force Religion into places it doesn't belong.

you would have to show an example. I cannot recall anyone forcing religion on another person or place it does not belong.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
exactly brainiac. That is why sandorski's comments are non-sensical. no individual can impose their religious will on another individual including through law

Yeah, too bad some of our politicians don't know that.

you would have to show an example. I cannot recall anyone forcing religion on another person or place it does not belong.

The Pledge of Allegiance and "In G-d We Trust" on our currency and coinage spring to mind.
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Creation/ID in the Science Classroom, Prayer in Schools, Abortion restrictions, etc.

Gay rights movement, Civil rights movement, equal pay, voting rights...all these are "imposing" change, even when it's unwanted.

The point is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with "imposing" change as shown above...the question is whether or not said change is good for society.

Every [insert movement here] is an example of a group forcing their views into law.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
126
Gay rights movement, Civil rights movement, equal pay, voting rights...all these are "imposing" change, even when it's unwanted.

The point is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with "imposing" change as shown above...the question is whether or not said change is good for society.

Every [insert movement here] is an example of a group forcing their views into law.

These are based upon Principles and are not just Change for changes sake. They also don't "Impose" anything on anybody. Instead, they provide greater Liberty to those denied it. That would be Unimposing.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
These are based upon Principles and are not just Change for changes sake. They also don't "Impose" anything on anybody. Instead, they provide greater Liberty to those denied it. That would be Unimposing.

My point is, if blacks sat down and didn't march and fight, they'd not have any rights today -- they had to demand rights.

And it doesn't matter what its based on, imposing is imposing. For instance, I agree that the forced overthrow of the Egyptian president equals more freedom, but overthrowing someone for the sake of freedom isn't any less imposing than demanding ID be taught in science class.

They just have different results.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
126
My point is, if blacks sat down and didn't march and fight, they'd not have any rights today -- they had to demand rights.

And it doesn't matter what its based on, imposing is imposing. For instance, I agree that the forced overthrow of the Egyptian president equals more freedom, but overthrowing someone for the sake of freedom isn't any less imposing than demanding ID be taught in science class.

They just have different results.

I can't call that "Imposing". To me Imposing is a Negative act, providing Liberty is Positive. Womens Suffrage, Equal Rights, and even Gay Marriage does not Impose anything on Anyone. Even those who oppose all these things do not lose any Rights in the process.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
I can't call that "Imposing". To me Imposing is a Negative act, providing Liberty is Positive. Womens Suffrage, Equal Rights, and even Gay Marriage does not Impose anything on Anyone. Even those who oppose all these things do not lose any Rights in the process.

Of course you can't call that "imposing" because you're narrowly defining the word, and its always associated with something undesirable and hence, carries a negative connotation. Much like how the word "criticize" is always used negatively...yet the word itself doesn't imply anything negative.

The facts are, though, that when legislation is changed due to the desires of a group (religious or secular), then they've just legislated their views into law. Period.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
126
Of course you can't call that "imposing" because you're narrowly defining the word, and its always associated with something undesirable and hence, carries a negative connotation. Much like how the word "criticize" is always used negatively...yet the word itself doesn't imply anything negative.

The facts are, though, that when legislation is changed due to the desires of a group (religious or secular), then they've just legislated their views into law. Period.


This is the problem right here, are you able to see that Legislation can have absolutely no connection to those things? "Secular" is not the opposite of Religious, this seems to be a confusion for many. As an example of the difference:

Religious concern: Prayer, certain Days of the Year or Week, adherence to certain behaviours

Secular: Separation of Church State is the main issue. From there individuals have their own positions, largely anyway.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
you would have to show an example. I cannot recall anyone forcing religion on another person or place it does not belong.

Pledge. Which we make children say before they have any concept of what the words mean.

Insidious.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
You all are amazing. It is never imposing if you force your belief system on others, but if someone who happens to be religious tries to implement a change, then all of a sudden that is imposing on others. Sorry. Your argument simply does not stand up in a public place.

There is nothing wrong with advocating for Civil Rights or gay marriage or whatever. But don't take away the same right for others to advocate for a stronger moral code let's say or advocate for allowing a person to say a private prayer to themselves before a meal or a test for instance.

In God We Trust is imposing religion on others. What weakminded those poor souls must be to be terrified of 4 little words that are meaningless to them - or so the atheists say.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
are you really that dense??? The mission trips don`t affect you at all...so what`s the issue??


I'm not black, either. So how could it affect me at all if she was out recruiting for the KKK, too, right?

Have you ever wondered where we might be today if christians would have let science progress during the Renaissance? I'm fine with you having your invisible friend (and receiving "miracles" like reduced tax bills). But that doesn't make it real any more than unicorns, thor, or the FSM.

Both this and the previous religion thread in this subforum were started by christians. Is this really what the christian's position has devolved into? Basically you are left not being able to prove the existence of your god, you can't show how your beliefs are any different than any of the many religions you reject, and the best you've been able to show as a modern day miracle is a lowered tax bill (LOL). Hell, I'm not even convinced the god of the christian bible is a 'good guy', he seems like quite the whiny bitch to be honest. Now you're more or less whining too, "Leave Brittney, err.. God alone! How does it affect you?!"
 
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crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
0
0
You all are amazing. It is never imposing if you force your belief system on others, but if someone who happens to be religious tries to implement a change, then all of a sudden that is imposing on others. Sorry. Your argument simply does not stand up in a public place.

There is nothing wrong with advocating for Civil Rights or gay marriage or whatever. But don't take away the same right for others to advocate for a stronger moral code let's say or advocate for allowing a person to say a private prayer to themselves before a meal or a test for instance.

You're right, to an extent. If your religious beliefs (hypothetical example--not accusing you) stipulate that people other than your self cannot engage in sex with others of the same gender, than repealing anti-sodomy laws is imposing the beliefs of others upon you.

In a society that disagrees, there is no way to have a consistent set of laws that do not, somehow, infringe on some of the population.* The more important consideration is the way in which these laws infringe on people.

In the case of the anti-sodomy laws above, people who morally object to homosexual sex are not forced to participate upon repeal. The only infringements of their rights is that they do not have the ability to control the actions of others.

When people say that they "don't want religion to be part of the state" what they really mean is that they don't want some of the population to be able to exert moral control over the rest of the population in matters that don't affect the first group. (Side note: I think we all agree that murder is immoral, but the reason we make it illegal is that it clearly negatively affects people other than those committing the murder itself.)

In God We Trust is imposing religion on others. What weakminded those poor souls must be to be terrified of 4 little words that are meaningless to them - or so the atheists say.
The very reason that "In God We Trust" was added to our currency first to declare that God was on the US's side in the Civil war, and then (along with "under God" in the pledge of allegiance) to separate the great, God-fearing United States from the evil, atheist communists.

Does it force religion on anyone? Not really. It does, however, do a lot to make atheists feel very unwelcome in this country.



*Totally unrelated, but interesting note: if you ever read Rousseau's The Social Contract, he argues something quite different: that the "general will" of the people in a democratic society is the will of each individual, and that there is no distinction and thus no conflict. This does a lot to explain the French attitude towards religious and ethnic minority groups.
 
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dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
*Totally unrelated, but interesting note: if you ever read Rousseau's The Social Contract, he argues something quite different: that the "general will" of the people in a democratic society is the will of each individual, and that there is no distinction and thus no conflict. This does a lot to explain the French attitude towards religious and ethnic minority groups.

I have but it has been many years.

I subscribe to the Lockean version that we adopted in our founding.

As for your examples above, even if a moral change does not directly/physically affect one who is opposed, it still could affect them in an emotional or spiritual sense.

The question really becomes where is a line to be drawn for societal norms? Moving that line does affect those on either side even "non-participants".

You present a very good argument. Thanks for that. Nice to see a civil discourse.
 
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