I know you're harping on "surgeries", but being able to perform surgeries while at the same time not washing your hands, or eating food that would eventually kill you doesn't make your methods "superior".
Actually, by focuses on more practical things, you can avoid sugeries and needless sickness....that what Yahweh was doing.
It's better to avoid bad food than to be forced to develop a method that cures sickeness related to bad eating habits.
Praise God for that practical wisdom!!
No. Israelis were practicing what little they knew. Part of what they didn't Know was that eating Pork was perfectly safe if it was cooked properly, why didn't Yahweh say anything about that?
The Israelis were also not the only ones who understood that cleanliness was important. It wasn't something they came up with on their own.
Praise "God" all you want, but all these things were figured out by ancient peoples all on their own through correlation.
Re-read what you just said...you said "if" it was cooked properly...IF. That doesn't necessarily breed confidence in eating pork, particularity seeing that it could have been easily ill-prepared.
God just advised to stay anyway from it all together to avoid risks period. They could live without pork just as well as we can today. Doctors normally warn dieabetics to stay away from certain foods, no matter how well prepared, to completely avoid needless risks...God was assuming the role of a doctor.
lol
Who said they came up with it? Point is, emphasis was put on basic cleaniness, but if it was so "important", why were doctors, AFTER the age of enligtment, still spreading diseases by not washing their hands after touching dead bodies?
I will praise God, because of his reminders!
Ugh. There are parts of Mosaic Law where the preparation of food is given in great detail. Pork is so easy to make safe that it makes no sense that an alleged god would simply ban it altogether.
As for fairly recent Doctors and cleanliness, even if they followed the Biblical cleansing procedures, it still would not be sufficient.
Thrusting one's hand into an open wound after just touching a dead body *can* be a very bad idea, however, doing the same after waiting a week after touching a dead body is also a bad idea. Germs don't just come from dead bodies, they are everywhere and on every hand all the time. It took Science to figure that part out.
So you recognize the detail. Shows that God simply wanted them to stay away from pork altogether then, seeing that pigs were indiscriminate in their eating habits.
Nothing wrong with that. Back then, I'd probably not wanting my people eating animals that ate *anything*. The 100 percent way to avoid risks was to avoid the animal.
However, the important thing was to obey the command, and they did that.
Washing your hands isn't sufficient? (Numbers 19:11-12)
That's why he said "purify with water" as well. Science was lagging on the simplicity of that rule.
Any way, we are not under the OT anymore and debating this is pointless.
Do you eat Pork?
No, simply washing hands is not sufficient. Especially for a Doctor.
Water doesn't purify. It will decrease the crap on your hands, but it takes more than that to purify.
Yes, because Christians aren't commanded to not eat it.
Who said it was sufficient for a doctor? Israel weren't a nation healing people, so they were not treating patients like doctors do. However, if I touched a dead body, simple hand washing was sufficient since I wasn't handling sick people with open wounds.
For example, hand scrubbing isn't needed if I touched a regular door knob and am returning to work.
Hand "scrubbing" is for surgeons. This means that the technique differs based on the needs.
Consider the context of why hand washing was sufficient...they weren't doctors, so your strawman is seen and bypassed.
Water doesn't purify. It will decrease the crap on your hands, but it takes more than that to purify.
I was brought up as an atheist - my parents had a strong conviction that religion was wishful thinking on the part of those who believed it, and they passed that view on to my siblings and me. When I first went to school and there were prayers and hymns were sung, I didn't understand what it was all about.
If I think about it, maybe I am not so strongly atheistic as my parents who completely rejected the idea of a God. I am willing to accept the existence because I cannot rule it out, but until I have one of these personal experiences I am basically a blank slate when it comes to religion.
I could go and look at any religion, but I cannot imagine why I would ever believe that one of them was true. I've read some of the bible, heard much more, but there has never been anything that has made me think of it as anything more than just a book with words in. The good thing about a book is that the words in it can be good without the entire thing having to be literally true - I'm happy to accept that the words attributed to Jesus are good regardless of whether he said them and who his parents were, or even if he were a fictional character.
As I see it, everyone starts off without a religion when they're born, and those who become religious do so for some reason, whatever that might be. Since I've reached adulthood without managing to gain one I can't see why I would choose one now. . .I don't think I could if I wanted. It would feel cynical to walk into a church and just decide "I believe this now" as I don't think that's what belief is. I don't think I can choose one that I like the sound of because I know that wanting something to be so does not make it so.
Religion is mostly geographic which is entirely at odds with the internet which centers around connecting people from any part of the world. I can race a guy in Forza from France (its apparently big there) but when it comes to spiritual beliefs the internet is no bueno. Cars, fine, everyone agrees, the gas makes you go and the brake makes you stop. Trying to convince a Hindu from India there is no god because you surf reddit 24/7... meh.
There is no religion or beliefs on the internet because it occupies no geographic space. Religion is about community of which there is exactly zero real community on the internet, so no wonder the internet surfer atheists types done fucked it up and misunderstand.
An athiest church is going about it all wrong. They need a special atheist facebook where they can be anti-creationism internet slacktivists and such.
Saying you're atheist is like being factionless in divergent. You don't really have a community other than the internet. The atheists would all like to think they are special snowflakes and they are the divergents, the only ones who 'get it'. But no really, you just have no community. You're factionless. Having zero roots or community support isn't a superpower and real life isn't hollywood.
This is incorrect and arbitrary. It has nothing to do with community or collectivism. It has to do with reality and the best way to live in reality. And the best way is to be dedicated to knowing and operating in reality. Pursuing knowledge, not belief, pursuing Truth, not Faith.
Being part of a community is also fun and productive when rational goals and activities are on the agenda. And has nothing whatsoever to do with irrational beliefs in deities.
Becoming part of a group to share irrationality makes no sense, other than a "warmth in numbers" mindset. Religious community satisfies the urge to "share the fear" with others who are equally bewildered. Atheists obviously do not need community for that purpose.
Spirituality and human nature are part of reality. There will always be an "us vs them" mentality as its part of being a human. Declaring you're atheist does nothing to really alleviate it. The mobility of the 1900-1950's really mixed up everyone's ethnic/cultural/geographic background. Saying you're atheist to me has been proven to mean "your people" or the community you most identify with is in fact the internet.
I think it would be good to have something to discuss, to get some knowledge out there on both sides for better or worse.
So I'd like to point everyone to a documentary on PBS titled God in America
The part I thought reminded me of discussions on this board are in Episode 4: A New light beginning at the 40:00 (minute) mark. You don't have to watch after that for any designated amount of time but I guarantee it won't disappoint. Make it full screen, sit back and relax, it will take up to 20 minutes tops but is wholly unnecessarily to watch until the end since I understand people are busy.
So to start after watching the video how do you feel about the creation stories?
I'm curious why the atheists, if they reject literal interpretation jump straight to rejecting all religion?
If Bryan went on his speaking tour do you think things would be different today? How do you feel about the quote at 50:00?
If there was an internet way back in the 11th century and this topic was still discussed then the religious people would also claim the earth was flat.
As an atheist I think I have evolved beyond bashing the religious. When one accepts that there is no God one has to reconcile the fundamentals of what it means to be good and moral. One has to determine the meaning ones life has, or simply put one has to choose a path based on ones belief or lack thereof.
We are all pursuing contentment and happiness. ts when this process occurred for me that it hit me, most religious folks are simply doing the same thing. I dont give a shit what someone believes as long as the general overtone of those beliefs moves ones life in a positive direction without harming others. THE BIG issue I have with Christianity for example is the innate need to Bear Witness or evangelize. The idea that they have it figured out and if you aren't doing what they are doing you are doing something wrong. If Im good with what I believe a Christian should be good with what I believe, when thats not the case Christians run into problems.
We are all pursuing contentment and happiness. t’s when this process occurred for me that it hit me, most religious folks are simply doing the same thing. I don’t give a shit what someone believes as long as the general overtone of those beliefs moves one’s life in a positive direction without harming others. THE BIG issue I have with Christianity for example is the innate need to “Bear Witness” or evangelize. The idea that they have it figured out and if you aren't doing what they are doing you are doing something wrong. If I’m good with what I believe a Christian should be good with what I believe, when that’s not the case Christians run into problems.
As an atheist I think I have evolved beyond bashing the religious. When one accepts that there is no God one has to reconcile the fundamentals of what it means to be good and moral. One has to determine the meaning one’s life has, or simply put one has to choose a path based on one’s belief or lack thereof.
We are all pursuing contentment and happiness. t’s when this process occurred for me that it hit me, most religious folks are simply doing the same thing. I don’t give a shit what someone believes as long as the general overtone of those beliefs moves one’s life in a positive direction without harming others. THE BIG issue I have with Christianity for example is the innate need to “Bear Witness” or evangelize. The idea that they have it figured out and if you aren't doing what they are doing you are doing something wrong. If I’m good with what I believe a Christian should be good with what I believe, when that’s not the case Christians run into problems.
Wait, if you think someone is doing something wrong, you have the responsibility to say something, then let them decide if what you're saying has merit, or they'll tell you to leave them alone.
Simple. I have to deal with other religious people approaching me with something I don't believe in as well, yet, I still support their right to try to tell me I'm wrong. When I don't want to be bothered, I let them know...complaining about it only makes you more irritated by it. Then it goes back to our Government system, which allows that as long as your rights aren't being violated.
You'll just have to deal with the inconvenience, but ultimately, religious people having these freedoms are fundamental to you having your freedom to do the same yourself about the falseness of my beliefs, if so shall choose.
This is America...learn to suck it up, and deal with it...and stop complaining about it unless you're willing to go without certain rights yourself.
That's America, learn to suck it up and deal with it. We have the right to worship or not worship as we choose.
How many times per day do you have to deal with it? Hardly none, if ever, especially if you're a working family man, you don't spend time at home or in the streets during the day.How many times per day do Jews, JW's, Scientologists, Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, ad nauseam, come up to you to talk about their belief system and how you should convert over to it; do you "put up with"?
I'm not the ones complaining about people preaching to me...you and lotus are whining about people telling you you're wrong.
So what? Telling me I'm "doing it wrong" doesn't make it so.
How many times per day do you have to deal with it? Hardly none, if ever, especially if you're a working family man, you don't spend time at home or in the streets during the day.
The more you're out in public, the more you see them. But my point remains, though, knock on my door, stop me while walking...I understand that I have my freedom because you have yours.
You can't have it both ways. If you're truly tired of "preachers", write to your congressman, of move to Russia where Christianity and preaching is routinely interfered with by the Russian Orthodox Church...they'd love to have you there, and I'm sure you'd love to be free from "the good word". In fact, I'm sure they're looking for more folks of your stripe.
Freedom to preach isn't limited to whether or not you're Christian already, or because you're mad because people think you're wrong.
back then even the non religious believed the earth was flat.....If there was an internet way back in the 11th century and this topic was still discussed then the religious people would also claim the earth was flat.
Right, a theist telling/preaching to a atheist/non-Christian believer (in effect telling them they're doing it wrong) is, wait for it.........a personal observation based on the theist's belief system.
You're wrong here.Someone who is comfortable with their non-Christian belief system or their rejection of the notion of deity/deities is not going to be swayed by a personal observation that they don't share or care about.
What? Preaching...IS acting. Talking, is "acting and living your faith" as its a MASSIVE part of being Christian.Preachers and proselytizers try to talk people into believing, they'd be better served acting and living their faith. "Two hands working can accomplish more than a thousand praying"
I have to deal with it as much as you do.I asked how many Jews, etc. do you have to deal with... because you made the statement to lotus, to the effect that you have to put up with it so he should have to as well. If you don't have to deal with them than the point is moot.
Your "idea" is not supported by the US Constitution -- no one is restricted to "waiting for you", so don't mind me if I reject it on those grounds.You say it's okay to stop someone while they're walking or to go to their door unbidden; I submit a different idea:
That's all fine and good, but so what? Your views are not shared by the folks who actually founded this free country, and that's precisely why we have freedom of religion...to be protected from people who hold your anti-freedom viewpoints.in my eyes at least, crossed a DMZ/fired a shot across my bow/rubbed the dragon's scales against the grain/etc. as well as committed a huge social faux pas.
I didn't tell you to move to Russia, that was one of three options you realistically have at your disposal; since you have an obvious distain for religious freedom; (1) Work to change the laws (which you said you really can't), (2), move to another country which supports your views, or (3), deal with it (which you seem to have a hard time doing).Rob, telling someone to move out of the country because they think differently than you is fairly un-American, you might want to consider that. Also, I think you're smart enough to know that "writing a Congressperson" or several isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. Christianity has had a lock on this country's political makeup almost since it's inception; one citizen's letter isn't going to change that.
Oh, trust me...the more agnostics and atheists they have in their ranks, the more they can oppress Christianity and restrict preaching the way you want it done here.And no, Russia isn't looking for more people of my "stripe". Besides I don't have stripes; there's a lot more to me than my agnosticism.
Exactly, and I never said otherwise. That really doesn't really challenge my point though. While I said they think you're doing it wrong, I never actually said you ARE doing it wrong.
You're wrong here.
Many times (with myself as a prime example) all it takes is a little seed to be planted to get someone thinking, and then that leads down a path to either conversion or de-conversion...happens everyday, buddy.
You don't have to care about it at that moment, but something could just get you thinking a little, and then you go from there.
What? Preaching...IS acting. Talking, is "acting and living your faith" as its a MASSIVE part of being Christian.
You seem to know very little about what you criticize.
I have to deal with it as much as you do.
Your "idea" is not supported by the US Constitution -- no one is restricted to "waiting for you", so don't mind me if I reject it on those grounds.
That's all fine and good, but so what? Your views are not shared by the folks who actually founded this free country, and that's precisely why we have freedom of religion...to be protected from people who hold your anti-freedom viewpoints.
I didn't tell you to move to Russia, that was one of three options you realistically have at your disposal; since you have an obvious distain for religious freedom; (1) Work to change the laws (which you said you really can't), (2), move to another country which supports your views, or (3), deal with it (which you seem to have a hard time doing).
So if none of these are optional for you, then what's your point?
Oh, trust me...the more agnostics and atheists they have in their ranks, the more they can oppress Christianity and restrict preaching the way you want it done here.
You'd fit right in.