Elio motors. 3 wheeler car that promises 84 mpg and $6800

[MongGrel]

I'd maybe buy one of those as just a back and forth to work short commute thing.

Does look you could play around with it a bit also.

Not sure I'd want one in a snowy area.

 

[Yuriman]

You are hypermiling - YAY for you!

If you hypermile a Elio, perhaps you will see drastic differences than it's EPA rating as well.

Your anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. We're talking EPA ratings, not 63mph on a flat road with the ambient temperature of 72 degrees with a slight tailwind.

I was just responding to this:

How do they plan to get 84mpg when even motorcycles don't have that kind of fuel economy and they're much lighter?

Kinda funny to think that driving the speed limit during warm weather is hypermiling.

 

[natto fire]

Kinda funny to think that driving the speed limit during warm weather is hypermiling.

I see morons on the freeway using brakes all the time. I think they were implying that the average driver is an overly aggressive style. A lot more braking when they press the accelerator to the floor, check a tweet, and then have to slow down for the traffic ahead.

So yeah, any kind of smart driving would technically be hypermiling, since we are in the minority, and moronic driving habits are the norm.

 

[WackyDan]

How do they plan to get 84mpg when even motorcycles don't have that kind of fuel economy and they're much lighter?

Motorcycles by nature are not very aerodynamic once you put a rider on them.

That said there are plenty of low output single cylinder bikes that get 75 MPG.

 

[Zenmervolt]

More good news on ELIO Motors from the LA Auto Show -

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/19/elio-motors-p5-trike-la-2015-video/

From the article (emphasis added): "Elio admitted today that the software testing shows that the P5 is getting 81.6 mpg."

They've had this thing "near production" since at least 2013 and yet they somehow still haven't managed to actually test a real car.

This thing is vaporware. It's the Dale all over again. Except this time with crowdfunding so that normal people can lose their savings instead of just wealthier accredited investors.

ZV

 

[madoka]

Sat in one at the auto show. No one in their right mind will ever buy one of these unless you want to be buried in it.

 

[Bull Dog]

...They've had this thing "near production" since at least 2013 and yet they somehow still haven't managed to actually test a real car.

This thing is vaporware. It's the Dale all over again. Except this time with crowdfunding so that normal people can lose their savings instead of just wealthier accredited investors.

ZV

Pretty much this. I would like this vehicle to exist, but alas...probably going to be a scam in the end.

 

[shabby]

Sat in one at the auto show. No one in their right mind will ever buy one of these unless you want to be buried in it.

Well its a step above motorcycle safety right? Got any pics of it?

 

[madoka]

Well its a step above motorcycle safety right? Got any pics of it?

I'd take my chances on the bike to be honest.

Got any pics of it?

Why yes I did. I took a pic of how utterly ridiculous the dash gauges looked, which is something out of a 50's era communist-block car:

 

[Yuriman]

Why yes I did. I took a pic of how utterly ridiculous the dash gauges looked, which is something out of a 50's era communist-block car:

Glad to see they're not wasting their tight budget on frivolous things. :sneaky:

In all seriousness though, if it saves a few hundred dollars, that's significant at the pricepoint they're shooting for.

~

If it's reliable, cheap to purchase, and saves people money when driving it around (both through insurance and through gas savings), I'm sure we'll see plenty of them on the road.

If they ever make it to market.

 

[madoka]

In all seriousness though, if it saves a few hundred dollars, that's significant at the pricepoint they're shooting for.

See the problem is that it's not just the gauges. That level of austerity and cheapness permeates the ENTIRE vehicle. If you didn't tell me the price, I'd assume it was around $3000 and built for the poor of India.

 

[Yuriman]

See the problem is that it's not just the gauges. That level of austerity and cheapness permeates the ENTIRE vehicle. If you didn't tell me the price, I'd assume it was around $3000 and built for the poor of India.

You might be overestimating what can be built for $3,000.

Personally, I'll take a used car, but I can see the appeal.

 

[madoka]

You might be overestimating what can be built for $3,000.

Nope. You're overestimating what this vehicle is worth. Remember that if you put down a nonrefundable deposit on it, you're essentially getting it for less than $5000. $4800 IIRC. That's still overpriced for what it is. The Tata Nano originally came out at $2000 and this thing is in the same league as it.

 

[Subyman]

Wow those gauges are hideous. A small LCD and an arduino would be ~$70 off the shelf without scaling reductions. A digital read out tach/speedo on amazon is like $20.

 

[Thump553]

From the article (emphasis added): "Elio admitted today that the software testing shows that the P5 is getting 81.6 mpg."

They've had this thing "near production" since at least 2013 and yet they somehow still haven't managed to actually test a real car.

This thing is vaporware. It's the Dale all over again. Except this time with crowdfunding so that normal people can lose their savings instead of just wealthier accredited investors.

ZV

ZV: Thanks for posting this, reading the linked article was the best laugh I've had in a long time.

I'm PO'd ABC-TV never did follow through and make a TV movie of the Dale fiasco.

And you are 100% correct on the crowd-funding thing. It's a shame to see that loophole in securities laws exploited to fleece suckers and widows.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Glad to see they're not wasting their tight budget on frivolous things. :sneaky:

I don't know. I'd say that a 140+ mph speedometer in that thing is pretty frivolous.

If it's reliable, cheap to purchase, and saves people money when driving it around (both through insurance and through gas savings), I'm sure we'll see plenty of them on the road.

If they ever make it to market.

I just don't see it taking off, even if it makes it to market. I can envision it as a toy for wealthy folks, but not as inexpensive transport for the masses. Insurance companies aren't stupid; they'll price insurance on these like they do for cars and savings on registration just aren't going to be very significant.

People with limited income need a vehicle that is non-specialized; they can't afford to have multiple, optimized, vehicles for different uses. A used base-model Hyundai hatchback would be a much better option for most people because it will fit an entire family and will be able to be fit all their luggage if they go to visit someone on vacation.

Cars like the Elio don't make sense as a family's sole vehicle. They only really work for single individuals or for people who can afford to own multiple specialized vehicles.

If they get to market, I'm sure we'll see a few in cities and other urban areas but I doubt we'll see many more of them than we do of the Smart Fortwo. At least in North America.

ZV

 

[Dr. Detroit]

I just don't see it taking off, even if it makes it to market. I can envision it as a toy for wealthy folks, but not as inexpensive transport for the masses. Insurance companies aren't stupid; they'll price insurance on these like they do for cars and savings on registration just aren't going to be very significant.

People with limited income need a vehicle that is non-specialized; they can't afford to have multiple, optimized, vehicles for different uses. A used base-model Hyundai hatchback would be a much better option for most people because it will fit an entire family and will be able to be fit all their luggage if they go to visit someone on vacation.

Cars like the Elio don't make sense as a family's sole vehicle. They only really work for single individuals or for people who can afford to own multiple specialized vehicles.

If they get to market, I'm sure we'll see a few in cities and other urban areas but I doubt we'll see many more of them than we do of the Smart Fortwo. At least in North America.

So long as this car is able to get licensed in states where HOV lanes exist and is able to utilize those - this car will sell very well!

This car will be a huge hit with commuters, not so much for the first car buyer. I see your point there.

87,000 Smart for two's have been sold in the US since 2008. 16,000 Scion IQ's in there 2012-2014 model years.

There are also a lot of folks who want one of these that live where they are unable to charge an electric car - think condo & apartments dwellers in urban areas.

I have not put a deposit down as they have not received the funding they need, once they get the funding I will be putting down my deposit. It if its within 10% of its MPG & 10% of its price target I will buy.

I will then slap on a Yakima Rocket Box and enjoy my 75mpg on the freeway enjoying the extreme low cost of road tripping.

 

[Yuriman]

So long as this car is able to get licensed in states where HOV lanes exist and is able to utilize those - this car will sell very well!

This car will be a huge hit with commuters, not so much for the first car buyer. I see your point there.

87,000 Smart for two's have been sold in the US since 2008. 16,000 Scion IQ's in there 2012-2014 model years.

There are also a lot of folks who want one of these that live where they are unable to charge an electric car - think condo & apartments dwellers in urban areas.

I have not put a deposit down as they have not received the funding they need, once they get the funding I will be putting down my deposit. It if its within 10% of its MPG & 10% of its price target I will buy.

I will then slap on a Yakima Rocket Box and enjoy my 75mpg on the freeway enjoying the extreme low cost of road tripping.

Be prepared to lose 20+mpg on the highway with a roof mounted box. This vehicle relies on minimal drag and frontal area to get its fuel economy figures. I built a trailer that hide's in my car's wake, rather than use a roof box, after finding this out the hard way:

 

[Zenmervolt]

So long as this car is able to get licensed in states where HOV lanes exist and is able to utilize those - this car will sell very well!

This car will be a huge hit with commuters, not so much for the first car buyer. I see your point there.

87,000 Smart for two's have been sold in the US since 2008. 16,000 Scion IQ's in there 2012-2014 model years.

There are also a lot of folks who want one of these that live where they are unable to charge an electric car - think condo & apartments dwellers in urban areas.

I have not put a deposit down as they have not received the funding they need, once they get the funding I will be putting down my deposit. It if its within 10% of its MPG & 10% of its price target I will buy.

I will then slap on a Yakima Rocket Box and enjoy my 75mpg on the freeway enjoying the extreme low cost of road tripping.

Really? You're bringing up the Scion iQ as an example of a car that sold well? The iQ sold so well that Toyota had to discontinue it due to a 50% drop in sales. According to Toyota, the car was not worth investing money in.

The PEAK US sales since 2010 for the Fortwo were about 1,300/month. Average US sales since 2010 for the Fortwo are about 670 cars/month. I have no idea where you pulled the "87,000" sales number from, because the numbers I've linked show total sales of only ~47,000 in the US since 2010. If your 87,000 since 2008 number is correct, it indicates a MASSIVE drop in demand after the initial fad passed because it would mean that they sold 40,000 cars in the first two years, and then only another 47,000 in the next six years. (EDIT: Further digging indicates that the Fortwo sold ~24,000 copies in its first year and then posted three straight years of sales declines before leveling out around the 2010 numbers.)

The cars you're listing as "successes" are selling between 8,000 and 10,000 copies per year and one of them was discontinued by Toyota because they couldn't sell enough to make the car financially viable. The other is only still around in the US because it sells enough in non-US markets to (barely) justify the importation costs.

These are not numbers that can sustain a company like Elio.

For contrast, the Chevrolet Aveo, widely known as a piece of absolute crap, averaged about 50,000 sales/year when it was on sale.

People who can afford a $6,800 toy like the Elio don't represent a large portion of the market. The long-term market for the Elio, if it ever gets into production, is likely to be between 250 and 500 per month over the entire US once the initial fad has passed. Like the Smart car, the majority of them will be seen in fleet use for things like security companies or Car2Go type services.

ZV

 

[Dr. Detroit]

People who can afford a $6,800 toy like the Elio don't represent a large portion of the market. The long-term market for the Elio, if it ever gets into production, is likely to be between 250 and 500 per month over the entire US once the initial fad has passed. Like the Smart car, the majority of them will be seen in fleet use for things like security companies or Car2Go type services.

Let's take the Chevy Volt for example - it sold for shit in 2011 - a complete failure of 7,700 sold. In mid 2012 it was approved for HOV use in California. Sales rocketed to 24,000 units that year.


As I said in my previous post - so long as they get approved for HOV use then people who have long commutes will buy these up in states like California.

Gas prices of $2.50/G is not helping, as Elio's initial plan was when gas was $4/G. I definitely see a reduction in his annual goal unless gas prices spike to above $4/G.

 

[Mandres]

Guys stop talking about this company and vehicle as if they're real. There is no car to evaluate - only the same garage-hacked prototype they're been using to fleece suckers for the last 3 years - and there never will be.

It is impossible to bring a vehicle to market in this country for a $6,800 msrp. That price has been pure fiction since the very first press release. If, by now, they had revised their pricing estimate to something more realistic ($20-25k) then I might give them the benefit of the doubt. But they haven't - they're still pushing the same lie to generate as much hype and investment capital as they can before the inevitable Ch. 7.

It's a scam. Stop giving these people attention.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Let's take the Chevy Volt for example - it sold for shit in 2011 - a complete failure of 7,700 sold. In mid 2012 it was approved for HOV use in California. Sales rocketed to 24,000 units that year.

The Volt seats 4 people and is eminently practical as the sole vehicle for an individual or a family.

The Elio seats two in a pinch and is only barely practical as a vehicle for a single person who is content to choose between luggage or a passenger.

By bringing the Volt in as a comparison, you're missing the entire point of what I'm saying. You can move the goalposts around all you like, but you can't escape the fact that vehicles like the Elio, sold on the same principles, have been unable to sell more than 8,000 to 10,000 per year on a sustained basis in the US. And they have not been profitable at those volumes despite prices 2-3 times the Elio's "projected" price and massive savings from access to parts sharing from two behemoths of automotive production.

Further, your Volt comparison is flawed because the first-year numbers also reflect production issues and delays, not merely a lack of HOV lane approval. Additionally, since that second-year spike in demand, Volt sales have seen steady year-on-year sales declines ever since. Like the ForTwo and the iQ before it, there was an initial surge and then everyone who wanted one already had one and sales declined significantly.

If the Elio makes it to production, the exact same thing is going to happen. There will be an initial surge (likely already largely reflected in pre-order numbers) and then a massive fall-off.

Back in 2013, Elio Motors predicted that they would sell nearly 70,000 Elio cars in 2014, on the way to annual sales of 250,000 units. Those were not numbers arrived at through rational evaluation of the market. Those sorts of numbers can only arrived at by blindly buying into their own hype.

I understand that many people truly want to believe that Elio will revolutionize things or be spectacularly popular, but there's just no evidence whatsoever for those claims. All experience with similar endeavors (and there have been hundreds, hell, anyone remember the Aptera?) shows that this is not likely to succeed. Even if Elio finally gets into production (and note that, presently, they don't even have a true prototype, just a couple of test mules that they won't even do instrumented testing on, which is why all their fuel economy numbers are "computer projections"), it's going to be, at best, the automotive equivalent of the Segway.

ZV

 

[Yuriman]

See the problem is that it's not just the gauges. That level of austerity and cheapness permeates the ENTIRE vehicle. If you didn't tell me the price, I'd assume it was around $3000 and built for the poor of India.

Nope. You're overestimating what this vehicle is worth. Remember that if you put down a nonrefundable deposit on it, you're essentially getting it for less than $5000. $4800 IIRC. That's still overpriced for what it is. The Tata Nano originally came out at $2000 and this thing is in the same league as it.

Guys stop talking about this company and vehicle as if they're real. There is no car to evaluate - only the same garage-hacked prototype they're been using to fleece suckers for the last 3 years - and there never will be.

It is impossible to bring a vehicle to market in this country for a $6,800 msrp. That price has been pure fiction since the very first press release. If, by now, they had revised their pricing estimate to something more realistic ($20-25k) then I might give them the benefit of the doubt. But they haven't - they're still pushing the same lie to generate as much hype and investment capital as they can before the inevitable Ch. 7.

It's a scam. Stop giving these people attention.

So which is it? Is the projected price 3x too expensive, or 3x too cheap?

 

[A5]

Those are different posters...

 

[Yuriman]

Those are different posters...

I'm aware, but there seems to be differing opinion as to whether this is a $30,000 car that can't be built, thus swindling us, or a $2000 car that's going to be overpriced, thus swindling us.