@MrSquished is prime example of why poor people stay poor. They're incapable or never try to learn anything new. And they don't know basic math. They know nothing about taxes because they don't personally pay any because they're poor. They freeload off rich people who do pay taxes and yet attack the rich people who are paying the taxes that allow freeloaders like MrSquished to pay little to no taxes.
Let me try to explain this one more time before I give up. Elon Musk takes $0 salary from Tesla. His entire pay compensation is in form of stock options. Tesla stock market cap, revenue, earnings, etc. have to hit certain milestones for Elon to get awarded stock options he can then exercise. If Tesla doesn't hit those set milestones, Elon Musk receives zero stock and zero pay for his time and work at Tesla. This is the pay compensation package that Elon Musk, Tesla Board of Directors, and Tesla shareholders all voted on and agreed to.
Elon signed the first 10 year compensation plan in 2012. Then another 10 year plan in 2018. The first 10 year plan is coming due next year in 2022. Elon Musk achieved and hit every single performance metrics and milestones so he was awarded the full stock options package. So he has the right to exercise all his stock options by end of 2022 or lose it. So he's exercising his stock options and paying his taxes. And because Elon Musk owns more than 10% of Tesla and is not regular employee, his stock option awards are considered compensation income and Elon must pay normal income tax on all the stock options and not capital gains tax. So Elon Musk must pay the max 37% Federal, 13% California, 1.45% Medicare, 0.9% Medicare Supplemental on his entire stock option exercise. So Elon Musk effective tax rate is 52.65%. Let me repeat since we have so many stupid math challenged people here. Elon Musk tax rate is 52.65%. It does not matter if Elon pays tax one year and not another. He only gets paid stock options when Tesla stock price and revenue hits certain set goals. If Tesla doesn't hit those goals, he doesn't get paid. Many years can go by without Tesla stock price/revenue hitting the required target to unlock the next trench of stock option award for Elon Musk.
You can only pay taxes if you have income or sell your investments. Elon Musk usually doesn't sell Tesla stock other than to pay taxes because he believes Tesla shares will be far more valuable in the future and stock price will be higher. He also wants to remain firmly in control of Tesla and the more Tesla shares he holds, the easier it is for him to remain in control.
So to recap, the middle class does not pay higher income tax percentage than Elon Musk despite what crazies like MrSquished falsely believes. Government will eventually collect all their taxes from Elon Musk at the max tax rate when the time comes and Elon Musk sells his shares. People should be allowed to invest and hold and not forced to sell something because the government or some freeloaders want someone's fortune because they have more than someone else.
Generically speaking, society as a whole, has a problem if it's engineered for the possibility of generating super wealthy individuals to the tune of being able to buy *all the policy*, through lobbying, media campaigning whatnot. You'd think that society had a mechanism built in to limit the amount of power any one singular individual can amass - for its own self preservation.
There have been years where musk and Bezos paid zero in Federal income tax, living off of loans and deducting the interest rate on those loans from whatever income they had.Generically speaking, society as a whole, has a problem if it's engineered for the possibility of generating super wealthy individuals to the tune of being able to buy *all the policy*, through lobbying, media campaigning whatnot. You'd think that society had a mechanism built in to limit the amount of power any one singular individual can amass - for its own self preservation.
But do we know that he is taking out loans with his stock options as collateral?
You can still be a freeloader and play by the rules.Warren called him a freeloader because it was politically expedient.
Congress decided to partially fund electric cars, not Musk. Congress decided to partially fund rooftop solar, not Musk. Congress created the environment where Musk could build a profitable business, then the public decided that a boutique car builder was more valuable than the largest manufactures on the planet. Musk didn't do that either. Now Warren decides that Musk is a bum because he played by the rules she helped put in place.
Oddly enough, I'm no fan of Elon Musk, never have been. But he stepped up, played the game by the established rules, and won. Now one of the clowns that made up the rules has decided to call him out for winning.
@MrSquished is prime example of why poor people stay poor.
You can still be a freeloader and play by the rules.
Please provide some evidence that Warren had anything to do with the current rich favored tax code.
It may not be the best term to use but her point is easy to discern.IMHO you cant call someone out as being a freeloader for playing by the rules. You just cant. The equivalent on the right is calling AOC a socialist.
I thought the Trump years had taught you something about using icons as center stage for public debate.It may not be the best term to use but her point is easy to discern.
I thought the Trump years had taught you something about using icons as center stage for public debate.
You know I'm 100% right and can't dispute my numbers so you resort to personal name calling, insults, and profanity because you have nothing. I'm done with you. I've proved that Elon Musk pays higher percentage of tax than the middle class.I know how it works dipshit. That's the whole fucking point. The whole fucking point. And people in this thread like Zorba, and Fskim, and IronWing also get it, and many others.
The fact you still don't get this is sad. I mean you are a simple minded dude that had one smart move in life - you saw some shit on Elon, go hero worship, got into a cult, bought in and rode the gravy train. That's it. People get lucky. Congrats. Being in a cult is scary though.
I mean you really think Warren is scared of Elon fanboys on Twitter and that paying for ads is freeloading. It's fucking idiotic.
The fact you don't see that people can live like billionaires and pay less taxes on a year to year basis than people in the middle class is a problem just shows that you are also part of the problem society faces. It doesn't matter how it happens. It doesn't matter who the person is either. It's not just Elon. This stuff precedes Elon by quite a while, and people have been consistent criticizing the system before Elon was a bigwig.
I know he is your cult leader but this is not just about him, so don't take it too personally lol
I better stop attacking Elon before more Elon fanboys come after me
Oh lord please help me.
Also, yes you are much wealthier than me. And I don't give a shit - money doesn't buy you a soul.
But I live in a nice 400K condo which I bought for 350K and while I don't make over 6 figures, I live a nice life. My folks made about 6 figures each before they retired now over 15 years ago, so in those dollars, and they share my opinion - I got my values from them actually. And my brother in law makes 6 figures, and he agrees, and my two good buddies that just moved out the burbs and had babies also do, and while this is just for shits and giggles but there are many many many many other people make decent money and have a nice life, and pay taxes, and would agree that you are completely wrong and problematic. To you they are all poor freeloaders. It's disgusting.
I mean I know making like $110k a year to you is pauper stuff which is clear by your attitude in this thread calling everyone poor, but that's just because you are an asswipe.
But keep being the Queen of France let them eat cake dbag, and that everyone that thinks the ultra wealthy should pay their fair share in taxes are all poor freeloaders. You are just amusing, but sad. All you have is your money, a worship of money and one billionaire, and overpriced scarves.
Margin loans are simply loans against your stocks. It's no different than you getting a home equity loan on your house or title loan at a pawn shop using your car title as collateral. You don't care if your neighbor use their home as ATM and get a home equity loan to live off of and buy shit. Why do you care if someone is using their stock to get loans to buy more stock or use the money to live or do other stuff with it? I have the same type of margin loan as Elon Musk right now, and I've pledge some of my stock as collateral so I can pay taxes and pay for my living expenses. There's currently close to $1 trillion in margin debt in the US stock market. Margin loans are fact of life in finance and extremely common tool utilized by huge amount of people on Wall Street and Main Street. Every broker offers margin loans. Margin loans are not without risks. I 100% bet you some of you are also using margin loans right now to juice your stock market returns.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with margin loans. Don't let these losers who don't know shit about finance and taxes tell you it's evil. If margin loans are evil, then every asset backed loans are evil too. Entire financial market is evil too then.Yea, those loans are iffy at best.
Couldnt you choose to move to a tax haven just before your options comes to? That way you'd been living and using the infrastructure of a given country for years and years, paid sub 1% interest on your loans and next to no taxes?
That doesnt sound fair.
Yea, those loans are iffy at best.
Couldnt you choose to move to a tax haven just before your options comes to? That way you'd been living and using the infrastructure of a given country for years and years, paid sub 1% interest on your loans and next to no taxes?
That doesnt sound fair.
IMHO you cant call someone out as being a freeloader for playing by the rules. You just cant. The equivalent on the right is calling AOC a socialist.
I know what it is you arrogant fuck. I don't fucking agree with it as I have said numerous times in this thread. I am not going to change my opinion just because you talk down to me and explain it again for the 50th time.Margin loans are simply loans against your stocks. It's no different than you getting a home equity loan on your house or title loan at a pawn shop using your car title as collateral. You don't care if your neighbor use their home as ATM and get a home equity loan to live off of and buy shit. Why do you care if someone is using their stock to get loans to buy more stock or use the money to live or do other stuff with it? I have the same type of margin loan as Elon Musk right now, and I've pledge some of my stock as collateral so I can pay taxes and pay for my living expenses. There's currently close to $1 trillion in margin debt in the US stock market. Margin loans are fact of life in finance and extremely common tool utilized by huge amount of people on Wall Street and Main Street. Every broker offers margin loans. Margin loans are not without risks. I 100% bet you some of you are also using margin loans right now to juice your stock market returns.
Good. Now we know your real issue. You object to how someone uses and spends their money. Got it.I know what it is you arrogant fuck. I don't fucking agree with it as I have said numerous times in this thread. I am not going to change my opinion just because you talk down to me and explain it again for the 50th time.
I don't agree with you using it to avoid capital gains taxes any more than I agree with Elon doing. If you are using your wealth to live off, it is being realized.
Technically he’s spending others money since it’s a loan.Good. Now we know your real issue. You object to how someone uses and spends their money. Got it.
I object to living off unrealized gains. I don't give a shit what they actually spend it on as long as its taxed when they do spend it. Absolutely nothing in my post said anything about what someone spent their money on, just that they avoided paying taxes on that money.Good. Now we know your real issue. You object to how someone uses and spends their money. Got it.
I’m not sure if you genuinely don’t understand the argument or if you’re pretending not to.You know I'm 100% right and can't dispute my numbers so you resort to personal name calling, insults, and profanity because you have nothing. I'm done with you. I've proved that Elon Musk pays higher percentage of tax than the middle class.
Allow me to remind you again what kind of cheating freeloader you are. Not only you not pay any income tax, but you also are perfectly ok with committing Medicaid fraud by shifting assets and not declaring it. Yes, that's Medicaid fraud and punishable under the law. But it's ok to lie/cheat and commit Medicaid fraud because the "system is corrupt" by your words. Yes, your parents taught you well.
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Margin loans are simply loans against your stocks. It's no different than you getting a home equity loan on your house or title loan at a pawn shop using your car title as collateral. You don't care if your neighbor use their home as ATM and get a home equity loan to live off of and buy shit. Why do you care if someone is using their stock to get loans to buy more stock or use the money to live or do other stuff with it? I have the same type of margin loan as Elon Musk right now, and I've pledge some of my stock as collateral so I can pay taxes and pay for my living expenses. There's currently close to $1 trillion in margin debt in the US stock market. Margin loans are fact of life in finance and extremely common tool utilized by huge amount of people on Wall Street and Main Street. Every broker offers margin loans. Margin loans are not without risks. I 100% bet you some of you are also using margin loans right now to juice your stock market returns.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with margin loans. Don't let these losers who don't know shit about finance and taxes tell you it's evil. If margin loans are evil, then every asset backed loans are evil too. Entire financial market is evil too then.
I’m not sure if you genuinely don’t understand the argument or if you’re pretending not to.
I understand none of you pay higher Federal Income Tax in percentage terms than Elon Musk. Yet, pretty much everyone of you think you pay higher percentage when it's not true. So who's doing the pretending? You don't pay more.I’m not sure if you genuinely don’t understand the argument or if you’re pretending not to.
Okay so you are pretending not to understand it. Why?I understand none of you pay higher Federal Income Tax in percentage terms than Elon Musk. Yet, pretty much everyone of you think you pay higher percentage when it's not true. So who's doing the pretending? You don't pay more.
I'm the only person in this thread who actually pays higher Federal Income Tax rate than Elon Musk. My federal rate is 40.8% (37% max fed rate + 3.8% NIIT). Elon Musk federal rate is 38.54% (37% max fed rate + 1.45% Medicare + 0.9% Medicare Supplemental). Yet, you don't see me outraged that I'm paying higher federal tax rate than Elon Musk. Because I can make that claim and it's true vs all the false claims you guys are making about paying higher federal tax than Elon when you're not.
Thanks, I appreciate your well wishes!Good luck with your wealth tax, taxing the unrealized gains, margin loans, or some other ideas you guys come up with and support because someone has more money than you and you want to take it. Give your $10 to Senator Warren so she can tax the evil rich more and you can keep freeloading.
This is getting out of hand, lets pull it back for a second.I understand none of you pay higher Federal Income Tax in percentage terms than Elon Musk. Yet, pretty much everyone of you think you pay higher percentage when it's not true. So who's doing the pretending? You don't pay more.
I'm the only person in this thread who actually pays higher Federal Income Tax rate than Elon Musk. My federal rate is 40.8% (37% max fed rate + 3.8% NIIT). Elon Musk federal rate is 38.54% (37% max fed rate + 1.45% Medicare + 0.9% Medicare Supplemental). Yet, you don't see me outraged that I'm paying higher federal tax rate than Elon Musk. Because I can make that claim and it's true vs all the false claims you guys are making about paying higher federal tax than Elon when you're not.
Good luck with your wealth tax, taxing the unrealized gains, margin loans, or some other ideas you guys come up with and support because someone has more money than you and you want to take it. Give your $10 to Senator Warren so she can tax the evil rich more and you can keep freeloading.
Okay so you are pretending not to understand it. Why?
First, you’re cherry picking one year. Second, I bet he ends up paying a considerably lower rate than that in the end because there’s a lot he can do to lower his liability. Third and more importantly, who gives a shit? Elon Musk can and should pay a lot higher percentage than other people. The system he exists in enables and protects his wealth. He has a greater stake in it than the average person so rationally he should pay proportionally more.
Thanks, I appreciate your well wishes!
One of the primary purposes of the American federal tax system is to take wealth from the rich and redistribute it to the poor. In the last 60-70 years the rich have chipped away at that and it would be best for America to reverse that.
If you think that’s not fair I’m sorry to inform you that life is not fair.
I think it's more that people are often blind to their own advantages in a system and view those advantages as 'fair' while other people's are 'unfair'. The system does a ton to protect Musk's wealth and station but that's 'fair' to ponyo because the system works similarly for him. People voting to raise their taxes would be 'unfair' though because then other people are using the advantage of their greater numbers and he doesn't have that.Of course he is cherry picking one year. We all have been saying we understand that and he keeps repeating himself. I think it's been just clearly established that @ponyo is a dbag and now we all now it even more for sure. His only value system is money and money worship and billionaire and wealth worship. Has no soul, but likes Hermes. Historically, people that are primarily about wealth worship just help drive the worst systems in the world. This is not uncommon, but a sad part of the human condition.
Good talk.