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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,159
10,843
136
Even if you don't consider it handout, you can say SpaceX is built on the back of tons of government investment in space science and engineering. Commercial crew and cargo could be considered a partial handout because the government paid for the development, without claiming ownership of the final design. Commercial airlines, for example, do not directly pay for the development of an aircraft. Military who does directly pay for development generally retains ownership rights over the design.
Did the government get right to use the booster landing tech somewhere else. Bad deal if not.
 
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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,644
1,909
136
Did the government get right to use the booster landing tech somewhere else. Ban deal if not.

The US government didn't pay for development of the F9 booster reusability. SpaceX funded this development themselves.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,224
9,026
136
The US government didn't pay for development of the F9 booster reusability. SpaceX funded this development themselves.

Falcon 9 didn't complete until well after that '08 contract was awarded. You could very well make an entirely reasonable argument that it doesn't happen if the Govt doesn't save them.

And even SpaceX says that NASA covered almost half of the program cost anyway ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_9
 
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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,644
1,909
136
Falcon 9 didn't complete until well after that '08 contract was awarded. You could very well make an entirely reasonable argument that it doesn't happen if the Govt doesn't save them.

The first flight of the Falcon 9 was in 2010 with static fires in 2008 of the F9. The CRS-1 contract speeded up development of the F9 because it was needed for this contract. Which doesn't change the fact that the US government paid for very little of the F9 Development and they certainly didn't pay for F9 reusability development. The bulk of the Commercial Cargo contract from NASA was for development of Cargo Dragon V1. The bulk of the funding for the F9 development came from SpaceX's Iridium launch contract(Which Shotwell negotiated). For launch contract's a company has to put more money up front as compared to the purchase of commercial jets. SpaceX leveraged this along with private venture funding to develop the original F9 v1.0. Then SpaceX leveraged more private funding not from NASA or the US government to develop the F9v1.1 and then the F9v1.2 and the reusability that the government benefits from. What the government has paid for over the years with F9 development was unique costs for NSSL (National Security Space Launch) and certification of the F9 for crew launches. SpaceX used all private funds for the FH development.


The US government has certainly benefited greatly by SpaceX development of booster reusability with lower cost and increased reliability of the F9. It was the US government that canceled in the 90's the DC-X Delta Clipper project that was a attempt to developed a reusable LV. Several engineers from the DC-X program were hired by Blue Origin.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,207
10,781
136
Just imagine if Boeing publicly talked like SpaceX does.

"Unfortunately, instead of focusing resources on critical safety analysis and collaborating on rational safeguards to protect both the public and the environment, the licensing process has been repeatedly derailed by issues ranging from the frivolous to the patently absurd."

I'm sure Boeing feels the same way on certification for the 777x and 737-10, which the FAA has been dragging out for years.

 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,644
1,909
136
Just imagine if Boeing publicly talked like SpaceX does.



I'm sure Boeing feels the same way on certification for the 777x and 737-10, which the FAA has been dragging out for years.


The timing of that statement was for a specific hearing in Congress.

Congress, industry criticize FAA launch licensing regulations

A Sept. 10 hearing by the House Science Committee’s space subcommittee on “encouraging commercial space innovation while maintaining public safety” became a forum for complaints about a set of commercial launch and reentry regulations at the FAA, known as Part 450, intended to streamline the licensing process.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,207
10,781
136
The timing of that statement was for a specific hearing in Congress.

Congress, industry criticize FAA launch licensing regulations

A Sept. 10 hearing by the House Science Committee’s space subcommittee on “encouraging commercial space innovation while maintaining public safety” became a forum for complaints about a set of commercial launch and reentry regulations at the FAA, known as Part 450, intended to streamline the licensing process.
So you think Boeing could go to congress and bash the FAA's oversight right now? The FAA dragging it's feet has kept the 777X, 737-7, and 737-10 from being certified for years, but I am guessing Boeing would be slaughtered if it spoke like SpaceX did. And this is not the first time SpaceX has bashed the FAA's regulations, investigations, and oversight.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,477
16,117
146
This brings me to a point I have told myself for decades.
Extreme and decadent wealth twists someone’s belief system and they start thinking they are superior people just due to their extreme wealth. When it’s just fucked up defective thinking.

I call it the Michael Jackson syndrome.

The richer and more famous they get, the more isolated they become. They increasingly fire anyone who challenges them and surround themselves with sycophantic yes men. This creates a spiral of delusion and weirdness.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,200
16,657
136
I call it the Michael Jackson syndrome.

The richer and more famous they get, the more isolated they become. They increasingly fire anyone who challenges them and surround themselves with sycophantic yes men. This creates a spiral of delusion and weirdness.
This is the event that solidified my belief


Uber rich guy involved in weird hobbies and driving around in some ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER on his enormous estate that trains wrestlers for some reason. Everyone around him saw he was becoming more and more “erratic” where anyone else would be deemed “insane” or at best “unstable”. Kills some Olympic wrestler for weird reasons.
That is an example of wealth gone wrong it’s not healthy to have that much wealth and no plan to get rid of it.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,591
8,489
136
This is the event that solidified my belief


Uber rich guy involved in weird hobbies and driving around in some ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER on his enormous estate that trains wrestlers for some reason. Everyone around him saw he was becoming more and more “erratic” where anyone else would be deemed “insane” or at best “unstable”. Kills some Olympic wrestler for weird reasons.
That is an example of wealth gone wrong it’s not healthy to have that much wealth and no plan to get rid of it.

For some reason I love that "to date" qualifier.

To date, he is the only member of the Forbes 400 richest Americans to be convicted of murder.]

Brings to mind that Homer/Bart Simpson meme.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,644
1,909
136
So you think Boeing could go to congress and bash the FAA's oversight right now? The FAA dragging it's feet has kept the 777X, 737-7, and 737-10 from being certified for years, but I am guessing Boeing would be slaughtered if it spoke like SpaceX did. And this is not the first time SpaceX has bashed the FAA's regulations, investigations, and oversight.

It isn't just SpaceX it is other commercial launch providers that are having gripes with the way that the FAA is currently licensing space launches. The FAA needs to make changes with the way they manage space launches because of the higher launch cadence. The article goes into detail on several issues and the space industry does have legitimate complaints with the way that the FAA is currently managing space launch licensing. Congress is also pushing the FAA to make changes from both sides of the Aisle.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,091
14,389
146
I’ll state I have no particular insight into the Polaris Dawn mission, it’s all SpaceX. It’s just my general feeling on the matter.

If SpaceX did the work (no reason to assume they didn’t) it can be done safely.
 
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