[ElReg] ARM tests: Intel flops on Android compatibility, Windows power

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teejee

Senior member
Jul 4, 2013
361
199
116
TSMC and the chip designers both need to survive.

Intel takes a wafer, makes CPUs out of it, and sells them for some money.
AMD, however, takes a TSMC wafer, makes CPUs out if, and on top of that it pays TSMC for TSMC's margin on the wafer, because selling wafers is what TSMC makes its money out. Fabs are expensive, so they obviously need a lot of money to make new fabs and keep up with Moore's law. This directly leads to a higher price per wafer.

So, because of TSMC, AMD's wafer will have a much higher price. If both Intel and AMD made the same chip on the same process with the same yields, this means they will both get the same output. But because AMD's wafers are more expensive, they make less profit or they need to increase prices.

Higher wafer prices => higher price/transistor. And it is price/transistor that actually determines how far you are on the curve of Moore's law.

Things get even worse when you have a 1 node lead, which would for a fabless company, after paying the foundry tax, equate to a disadvantage of more than 1 node.

Sorry, you're still wrong, please read my post again. You didn't understand what I wrote.

Splitting a company in one "production company" and one "product company" does not mean that money gets magically lost.

It just means that we have two smaller companies, each with the same profitability as the former single company measured in percent.

Profit is always compared to the complete turn-over, including all costs for production plants. In Intels case this is a huge part of their turn-over.

If qualcomm build their own plants, then they would not just need to pay the cost for running these plants, they would also need to increase their profit in order to keep the same profitability as before (in %).
This is the reason it isn't a cost disadvantage to use a foundry.
 
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dahorns

Senior member
Sep 13, 2013
550
83
91
Sorry, you're still wrong, please read my post again. You didn't understand what I wrote.

Splitting a company in one "production company" and one "product company" does not mean that money gets magically lost.

It just means that we have two smaller companies, each with the same profitability as the former single company measured in percent.

Profit is always compared to the complete turn-over, including all costs for production plants. In Intels case this is a huge part of their turn-over.

Bit over simplistic no? There are inefficiencies associated with having multiple companies vs one company (HR, office overhead, corporate structure, inefficient communication, etc). Further, "each" company will not have the same profitability measured in percent. For instance, the fabrication side may, due to market factors, be able to command higher margins.

IF you assume no inefficiency from splitting a company into two (doubtful), the most you can say is that the combined profit profile of the two companies would equal the original.

I will note that sometimes the parts are better and more efficient than the whole. Typically you'd see this when a company is involved in separate, almost completely unrelated lines of business. However, Intel's operation is fairly well integrated. Thus, I don't think this is one of those instances.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
Because a smartphone (OS) consists only out of apps?

I didn't say that it did, but treating something that affects a lot of apps as a non-issue is crazy, especially when you simultaneously think the active perf/W curve of the processor is everything. If you don't take apps seriously you're best off ignoring the GPU too, I guess.


That oft-cited paper has some good data but serious problems. Like that they used an ARM board (Pandaboard) with absolutely atrocious memory performance vs other ARM boards (like something Odroid with Exynos), and they used an ancient version of GCC which predated the major ARM optimization work done by Code Sourcery.

But the biggest problem I have with it is the conclusion, that you can actually determine whether or not ISA has an impact on attainable efficiency this way. There are too many uncontrollable variables. The closest you'd come to being able to determine this is if a skilled CPU designer put the same level of resources towards making both x86 and ARM cores in earnest, and told you which one had an advantage. Intel isn't about to start doing this, but AMD is already saying they favor ARM.

I don't think the difference is going to be very big at all for modern CPUs, but it won't be totally zero.
 

jdubs03

Senior member
Oct 1, 2013
377
0
76
i just had the thought, though this pertains more to ARM vs. Intel in regards to micro-architecture design. i've heard the arguments of Intel being vertically integrates and how this is good foe control and communication between the fab operation and chip design. also with ARM being horizontally integrated and the advantages there.

my thought came from this link: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/181935-arm-says-20-smartphones-coming-this-year-shows-off-64-bit-cortex-a53-and-a57-performance

i think ARM and the fabless vendors (Apple, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Samsung-unique) plus TSMC, Samsung/GLF, may have the winning formula as each company has close communication but are each specialized in a specific domain. for instance by having two different chip design companies, one with a base model (ARM) then the custom vendors with their perspective allows for a better overall package.

basically what i am saying is, cherry trail needs to surprise in impact followed by broxton or else mobile will be gone for intel, while the ARM ecosystem likely making progress in catching up to Core.

watch out for tegra denver, it maybe close to broadwell-y (4.5w tdp, single-thread), and thats 28nm planar vs. 14nm finfet. i'm inferring here that to scale broadwell down from 11.5w tdp haswell (a 2.55x reduction), there has to be a sacrifice in performance. the higher model broadwell-y sku's are another story.

16nm TSMC/14nm Samsung will likely encroach on Intel's lead in terms overall chip design + process capability.

this may explain the hesitancy among android devs and intel.
 

teejee

Senior member
Jul 4, 2013
361
199
116
Bit over simplistic no? There are inefficiencies associated with having multiple companies vs one company (HR, office overhead, corporate structure, inefficient communication, etc). Further, "each" company will not have the same profitability measured in percent. For instance, the fabrication side may, due to market factors, be able to command higher margins.

IF you assume no inefficiency from splitting a company into two (doubtful), the most you can say is that the combined profit profile of the two companies would equal the original.

I will note that sometimes the parts are better and more efficient than the whole. Typically you'd see this when a company is involved in separate, almost completely unrelated lines of business. However, Intel's operation is fairly well integrated. Thus, I don't think this is one of those instances.

Of course I was simplistic, there are tons of pros and cons with outsourcing production.
But the post I responded to first clearly stated that it was a cost disadvantage for Qualcomm since TSMC adds a profit to their wafer cost. That is not true. Also Intel have this cost.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
Sorry, you're still wrong, please read my post again. You didn't understand what I wrote.

Splitting a company in one "production company" and one "product company" does not mean that money gets magically lost.

It just means that we have two smaller companies, each with the same profitability as the former single company measured in percent.

Profit is always compared to the complete turn-over, including all costs for production plants. In Intels case this is a huge part of their turn-over.

If qualcomm build their own plants, then they would not just need to pay the cost for running these plants, they would also need to increase their profit in order to keep the same profitability as before (in %).
This is the reason it isn't a cost disadvantage to use a foundry.

So you mean that the whole "Intel keeps the foundry margin" is a myth. Then it should be backed up by numbers. I have some, and they say quite the contrary: we're at the end of Moore's law for foundries, not for Intel: Intel And TSMC: The Unwinnable Struggle.

Now that I think longer about it, however, I do think you have a point, but it simply doesn't match reality. In any case, Intel uses its process lead to be able to manufacture cutting edge processors no one else can build, so it generates more money, on top of the higher margins of the already cheaper transistors of smaller nodes. That money is then put into the process R&D and capex to extend their lead.

A foundry like TSMC, on the other hand, generates money by selling wafers. ARM is able to build a widely used ISA and architectures although its revenue is minuscule compared to what you need for a bleeding edge fab. Qualcomm builds similar parts with probably a relatively similar budget, but generates loads of money because it has most of the mobile market share. A huge amount of the money goes to the company that doesn't need is as much as TSMC, who built the thing. So there are huge inefficiencies. Image if TSMC could use its own money and that of Qualcomm.

Just like selling the separate parts of a car don't really cost much, but the car manufacturer adds added value to the parts by making a car out of it. Intel, unlike TSMC, not only builds the car, it also sells the car, so it gets access to the money of the added value the car is extrinsically worth.

It turns out, in the semiconductor industry, IDMs are much more efficient and thus much better able to compete.

And since Qualcomm isn't one, it goes with its wafers to TSMC and pays the foundry toll, which effectively increases Qualcomm's price/transistor and thus decreases margins.
 

jdubs03

Senior member
Oct 1, 2013
377
0
76
So you mean that the whole "Intel keeps the foundry margin" is a myth. Then it should be backed up by numbers. I have some, and they say quite the contrary: we're at the end of Moore's law for foundries, not for Intel: Intel And TSMC: The Unwinnable Struggle.

Now that I think longer about it, however, I do think you have a point, but it simply doesn't match reality. In any case, Intel uses its process lead to be able to manufacture cutting edge processors no one else can build, so it generates more money, on top of the higher margins of the already cheaper transistors of smaller nodes. That money is then put into the process R&D and capex to extend their lead.

A foundry like TSMC, on the other hand, generates money by selling wafers. ARM is able to build a widely used ISA and architectures although its revenue is minuscule compared to what you need for a bleeding edge fab. Qualcomm builds similar parts with probably a relatively similar budget, but generates loads of money because it has most of the mobile market share. A huge amount of the money goes to the company that doesn't need is as much as TSMC, who built the thing. So there are huge inefficiencies. Image if TSMC could use its own money and that of Qualcomm.

Just like selling the separate parts of a car don't really cost much, but the car manufacturer adds added value to the parts by making a car out of it. Intel, unlike TSMC, not only builds the car, it also sells the car, so it gets access to the money of the added value the car is extrinsically worth.

It turns out, in the semiconductor industry, IDMs are much more efficient and thus much better able to compete.

And since Qualcomm isn't one, it goes with its wafers to TSMC and pays the foundry toll, which effectively increases Qualcomm's price/transistor and thus decreases margins.

you pay for specialization. if there are imbalances the appropriate companies will adapt to determine a new equilibrium point. tsmc could decide to raise their wafer prices to try and increase revenue, but they should've already had the correct demand assumptions to determine the correct price point to vendors.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
you pay for specialization. if there are imbalances the appropriate companies will adapt to determine a new equilibrium point. tsmc could decide to raise their wafer prices to try and increase revenue, but they should've already had the correct demand assumptions to determine the correct price point to vendors.

You prove my point. If TSMC needs to increase prices to stop falling much further behind, their margins will increase, but Qualcomm's will drop, which proves my point that fabless companies like Qualcomm have lower margins. Because those efficiencies, fabless companies will always have a disadvantage.

BTW, TSMC already increased prices from per-chip to per-wafer prices. If TSMC were late with 20nm and only had a 10% yield, and Apple desperately wanted 20nm in A8, they could have paid 10x as much for it as they would before, because they also have to pay the other 90% that's useless (but before, TSMC obviously would not have started volume production until yields were sufficient).
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
0
The problem is that TSMC's 20nm won't be the same as Intel's 22nm. TSMC's 20nm will have higher density, but it won't have FinFETs, for example. Intel's 28nm SoFIA EOY 2014 should be interesting. But if you see that Intel claims 50% lower power with FinFETs and Silvermont has about 2x higher efficiency than Apple's A7, then I think it isn't a big deal. Also, there a scientific study about this, that concluded the same.
Where is the cellphone where I can test your outrageous claims about 2x the efficiency of A7 LOL! Where?
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
0
My Dell Venue 8 Pro would disagree with you. Windows 8 runs very well on it.

Is that why I haven't known a single person who's that much of an Intel fanboi to piss their money away on one, despite nearly every person I work with owning an iPad or Android tablet? I even know a kid with a shield!

Quit lying to yourself. I have a G1820 and it's barely acceptable in Windows your comment made me chortle
 

jdubs03

Senior member
Oct 1, 2013
377
0
76
Is that why I haven't known a single person who's that much of an Intel fanboi to piss their money away on one, despite nearly every person I work with owning an iPad or Android tablet? I even know a kid with a shield!

Quit lying to yourself. I have a G1820 and it's barely acceptable in Windows your comment made me chortle

quit trolling. i had an iphone 4, and all that jazz. i got a venue 8 pro when it came out and i posted the benchmarks for it and despite being a z3740d it is very competitive with the ipad air's a7, for cpu. cherry trail is addressing the deficiency of the gpu, aka 16 eu's based on gen 8 equaling a massive improvement. u can find a v8p for $200 or less for the 32gb version, thats a great deal considering W8.1.1. i'd buy another windows tablet any day as long as the soc performance is there.

apple had the cool factor, google has the "open" idea, those encouraged mass adoption (i.e. herding). i've used all three main os', will likely get the 2016 version of iphone, but windows still has its place.
 
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TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
0
quit trolling. i had an iphone 4, and all that jazz. i got a venue 8 pro when it came out and i posted the benchmarks for it and despite being a z3740d it is very competitive with the ipad air's a7, for cpu. cherry trail is addressing the deficiency of the gpu, aka 16 eu's based on gen 8 equaling a massive improvement. u can find a v8p for $200 or less for the 32gb version, thats a great deal considering W8.1.1. i'd buy another windows tablet any day as long as the soc performance is there.

apple had the cool factor, google has the "open" idea, those encouraged mass adoption (i.e. herding). i've used all three main os', will likely get the 2016 version of iphone, but windows still has its place.

I'm not trolling, I merely am stating that your self-deception in regard to windows performance made me laugh lol. The A7 has been around since 2013. Bay Trail is just showing up in the hands of people this week, in an inferior product (to the iPad Air), and it barely matches CPU performance with A7 with 2x the RAM and a faster bus. To top that off, it's GPU performance is abysmal. Equal to my old Galaxy S4 and it's snapdragon S600.


Cherry Trail LOL:awe:

Intel has been saying they'd have good GPU performance since before the HD3000 days. Good luck with that, I don't think even the diehard intel guys here will try to argue that Cherry Trail will put intel anywhere close to the top in mobile GPU. Intel can't make a decent desktop GPU, while PowerVR has been selling GPUs since the 90s and mobile GPUs since the early 2000s.

Thread crapping will not be tolerated
-ViRGE
 
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jdubs03

Senior member
Oct 1, 2013
377
0
76
I'm not trolling, I merely am stating that your self-deception in regard to windows performance made me laugh lol. The A7 has been around since 2013. Bay Trail is just showing up in the hands of people this week, in an inferior product (to the iPad Air), and it barely matches CPU performance with A7 with 2x the RAM and a faster bus. To top that off, it's GPU performance is abysmal. Equal to my old Galaxy S4 and it's snapdragon S600.


Cherry Trail LOL:awe:

Intel has been saying they'd have good GPU performance since before the HD3000 days. Good luck with that, I don't think even the diehard intel guys here will try to argue that Cherry Trail will put intel anywhere close to the top in mobile GPU. Intel can't make a decent desktop GPU, while PowerVR has been selling GPUs since the 90s and mobile GPUs since the early 2000s.

bay trail this week? i got my v8p in october 2013, and my post doesn't exude any self-deception, i was very clear in an honest way about any performance advantages/disadvantages. its not hard to see a large gpu upgrade coming. you're plainly ignoring facts.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
Intel can't compete with Apple in mobile, a company that literally designed their first processor last year.

Ummm what? Intel is a supplier to Apple.

And Apple bought P.A. Semi, which has been doing CPU design for over a decade. Hardly their first processor.
 

simboss

Member
Jan 4, 2013
47
0
66
Ummm what? Intel is a supplier to Apple.

And Apple bought P.A. Semi, which has been doing CPU design for over a decade. Hardly their first processor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi ==>
The company employed a 150-person engineering team which included people who had previously worked on processors like Itanium, Opteron and UltraSPARC. Apple Inc acquired P.A. Semi for $278 million in April 2008.


I would hope Intel has a design team that is an order of magnitude (if not 2) larger.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi#cite_note-4
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,873
1,527
136
I'm not trolling, I merely am stating that your self-deception in regard to windows performance made me laugh lol. The A7 has been around since 2013. Bay Trail is just showing up in the hands of people this week, in an inferior product (to the iPad Air), and it barely matches CPU performance with A7 with 2x the RAM and a faster bus. To top that off, it's GPU performance is abysmal. Equal to my old Galaxy S4 and it's snapdragon S600.


Cherry Trail LOL:awe:

Intel has been saying they'd have good GPU performance since before the HD3000 days. Good luck with that, I don't think even the diehard intel guys here will try to argue that Cherry Trail will put intel anywhere close to the top in mobile GPU. Intel can't make a decent desktop GPU, while PowerVR has been selling GPUs since the 90s and mobile GPUs since the early 2000s.

So what, there is a Android game that BT igp cant play compared to S800? BT igp was mostly criticrised for its performance on x86 Windows tablets, and thats something no ARM chip can even try.

The most popular and best seller ARM chips comes with way inferior IGP too, 2-cores Malis-400 for example.
Thats where Intel needs to hit strong right now to gain dev support.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
Cherry Trail LOL:awe:

Intel has been saying they'd have good GPU performance since before the HD3000 days. Good luck with that, I don't think even the diehard intel guys here will try to argue that Cherry Trail will put intel anywhere close to the top in mobile GPU. Intel can't make a decent desktop GPU, while PowerVR has been selling GPUs since the 90s and mobile GPUs since the early 2000s.

What's up with everyone referring to what people or companies apparently said in the past? It doesn't matter what people said back then, what matters is the current roadmap. And that roadmaps shows 16 Gen8 EUs in Cherry Trail.

16EUs is 4x as much as Bay Trail, which performed somewhere between Adreno 320 and 330.
Gen 8 is going to be a massive architectural revision.

On op of that, it will have 14nm FinFET transistors, which should be quite a lot better than 22nm, while most of the competition (Android) will still be 28nm for quite some time, which in its turn is also quite a low worse than 22nm.
 

dahorns

Senior member
Sep 13, 2013
550
83
91
Is that why I haven't known a single person who's that much of an Intel fanboi to piss their money away on one, despite nearly every person I work with owning an iPad or Android tablet? I even know a kid with a shield!

Quit lying to yourself. I have a G1820 and it's barely acceptable in Windows your comment made me chortle

I can only tell you my experience. It works fine. Also, I reported your post. Your rudeness was uncalled for.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
So what, there is a Android game that BT igp cant play compared to S800?

So what, is there an android application that a half size/half the price ARM dual core cant run compared to BayTrail ?? :whiste:
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,873
1,527
136
So what, is there an android application that a half size/half the price ARM dual core cant run compared to BayTrail ?? :whiste:

android no, but it is if i chroot a linux root, and thats also add wine x86 support, there is also the desktop OGL support that is not common, and with good drivers, thats does not exist on arm.
For me at least, it could be fun to play with.

For the common people thats where its important for Intel to get a competitive price/performance $99 Android tablet, and its even more interesting considering that nows Windows is free for less than 9" devices that its likely to 7" Android/Windows dual tablets to appear at $99 or close.

Lets see if Intel can deliver the prices.
 
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ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Guys, we seem to have gotten pretty far off topic here. The subject of the discussion is x86 Android compatibility. It is not fabs or profit margins. Please stay on topic.

-Thanks
ViRGE
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
5,134
136
What's up with everyone referring to what people or companies apparently said in the past? It doesn't matter what people said back then, what matters is the current roadmap. And that roadmaps shows 16 Gen8 EUs in Cherry Trail.

16EUs is 4x as much as Bay Trail, which performed somewhere between Adreno 320 and 330.
Gen 8 is going to be a massive architectural revision.

On op of that, it will have 14nm FinFET transistors, which should be quite a lot better than 22nm, while most of the competition (Android) will still be 28nm for quite some time, which in its turn is also quite a low worse than 22nm.

But how much performance will Intel need in order to compensate for the binary translation tax? If the figures in the article are correct, that's a pretty staggering margin.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,556
2,139
146
Late to the party? Intel has the first and currently still only 64-bit version of Android since January. And it has 64-bit CPUs for many, many years longer than ARM.

Not sure what 64-bit has to do with the fact that I haven't seen anyone I know with an x86 Android device, and that so many apps are either broken or slow on it. Intel's really good at making the big, fast CPUs which have formed the basis of all my PC builds for the last several years. But this Android thing just doesn't look good for them, even ignoring the ARM PR info.
 
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