EMP question (MW2 spoilers)

[l0cke]

Warning: Modern Warfare 2 spoilers ahead

In MW2, there is a nuclear missile detonated in space to cause an electro-magnetic pulse on the ground. When this happens, the International Space Station is somehow destroyed.

Here a youtube link showing the event
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFDoJyhoh3o

This seems totally impossible to me. There is nothing in space to allow for a shockwave to travel, right? Is there any way this could actually happen?

Not to mention the other inaccuracies in the video, such as being able to turn your head in that spacesuit.

 

[TecHNooB]

I was scratching my head over this one too.

 

[bobsmith1492]

EMP = electromagnetic pulse. Electromagnetic waves like light and radio waves travel in a vacuum just fine.

 

[l0cke]

EMP = electromagnetic pulse. Electromagnetic waves like light and radio waves travel in a vacuum just fine.

So it might stop the electricity on the ISS, but it would not get destroyed like in the video.

 

[Dark4ng3l]

Well the heat radiated by the bomb itself + the matter that is pushed out of the explosion at high speed could easily damage something like a space station (it's pretty fragile compared to most things we have on earth)

 

[Modelworks]

Not possible. Nothing generated by that would reach the station except maybe some EME
The studies have shown that the best way to cause EMP damage on the ground is to detonate a nuclear device in orbit, not in the atmosphere. Even a small nuclear device in orbit creates more EME than one 10 times its size detonated in the atmosphere.

I have a book by the army corps of engineers that details how to protect from EMP and all the testing done. It is a good read, basically you want to disconnect all wires from items because they will act as antenna for the energy. Place objects within an enclosed structure, yes even a house works. Cars are considered safe from EME if the body is comprised of metal and not fiberglass. They can even be running and handle it just fine.

 

[TheBlackOut]

What about how far it reaches inside the the U.S.? I see about the whole eastern seaboard get power knocked out. Would that happen? I figured it would only affect the bits outside the blast radius.

 

[Fayd]

So it might stop the electricity on the ISS, but it would not get destroyed like in the video.

uh... nukes in space do make a sphere...

they just dont maek a shockwave.

the space station would get hit by a gamma ray burst and infared...


(at least, that's my limited understanding of physics.)

oh, and that missile tracking through the atmosphere looked retarded. it wouldnt be visible to them.

 

[Fayd]

Not possible. Nothing generated by that would reach the station except maybe some EME
The studies have shown that the best way to cause EMP damage on the ground is to detonate a nuclear device in orbit, not in the atmosphere. Even a small nuclear device in orbit creates more EME than one 10 times its size detonated in the atmosphere.

I have a book by the army corps of engineers that details how to protect from EMP and all the testing done. It is a good read, basically you want to disconnect all wires from items because they will act as antenna for the energy. Place objects within an enclosed structure, yes even a house works. Cars are considered safe from EME if the body is comprised of metal and not fiberglass. They can even be running and handle it just fine.

if that were the case, there would be no need for the EM hardened vehicles and such the military has now.

yes, wires do act as an antenna. but a house certainly wont work to block the EM.

 

[bobsmith1492]

if that were the case, there would be no need for the EM hardened vehicles and such the military has now.

yes, wires do act as an antenna. but a house certainly wont work to block the EM.

It depends on the frequencies involved and the size of the electronics.

To pick up much voltage from electromagnetic waves, wires need to be about 1/4 wavelength or larger. If electronics are very small, then very high frequency EM is needed to affect them. The higher the frequency, the more easily blocked the signal is.

 

[jagec]

Sure it would make a "shockwave" of sorts (although the light burst would come first). It would just be heavily attenuated compared to the ground-level ones we're used to, since it would be 100% composed of matter from the bomb itself. In an earth-level explosion, an initial low-mass high-velocity detonation imparts its momentum to the matter immediately surrounding it, which spreads it to the matter immediately surrounding that, and so on, propagating outwards at the speed of sound. Here, the material from the bomb would be ejected outwards at high velocity. It would be more likely to hole the ISS a number of times than blow it apart as shown in the video.

...and you'd be able to turn your head just fine...you're turning it within the suit, the suit itself isn't moving.

 

[Modelworks]

if that were the case, there would be no need for the EM hardened vehicles and such the military has now.

yes, wires do act as an antenna. but a house certainly wont work to block the EM.

I'll stick with what the corps of engineers says. The reason for the military to have hardened electronics is because they could be very close to the sources, not people with items inside their home from a blast miles away. Military electronics are designed for worst case scenarios.

 

[l0cke]

...and you'd be able to turn your head just fine...you're turning it within the suit, the suit itself isn't moving.

But, in the game you have to turn your head to move the camera, and the camera is attached to the actual suit. Just looking over at a nuke launch would not give Houston a view of it.

 

[toslat]

It depends on the frequencies involved and the size of the electronics.

To pick up much voltage from electromagnetic waves, wires need to be about 1/4 wavelength or larger. If electronics are very small, then very high frequency EM is needed to affect them. The higher the frequency, the more easily blocked the signal is.

It is a pulse and thus has a broad frequency content. The amount of energy you can pickup will also depend on the energy in the incident wave.

I'll stick with what the corps of engineers says. The reason for the military to have hardened electronics is because they could be very close to the sources, not people with items inside their home from a blast miles away. Military electronics are designed for worst case scenarios.

At the same location, a device inside a house is less exposed than one outside of it. If the level of exposure is sufficient to cause damage depends on other actors like the incident energy and tolerance of the device.

The energy in the EMP will decrease with distance from the source, with the rate of attenuation increasing with frequency. Also the signal is further weakened by passing through objects that are not free space. So at a distance from the source, a house could be a sufficient shield, while at a further distance, I may not need a shield at all.

 

[l0cke]

Apparently in MW2 you don't need any shielding.

Notice anything wrong?

I also thought that Eotech's had some sort of shielding.

 

[extide]

BTW We have has electro-magnetic-radiation from space for a LONG time. SATELLITE TV ANYONE? (Seems to traverse the vacuum just fine)

 

[toslat]

BTW We have has electro-magnetic-radiation from space for a LONG time. SATELLITE TV ANYONE? (Seems to traverse the vacuum just fine)

Long time? not as long as we have had radiation from the sun

 

[extide]

Long time? not as long as we have had radiation from the sun

haha, that is true

 

[ChuaChua]

What is the atmosphere at that altitude like?

The real ISS looks closer to the earth than the one in the youtube video.

 

[exdeath]

The majority of destructive blast energy from a nuclear explosion is from air pressure. It would not have that effect in the vacuum of space.

And I doubt the EMP would have much effect either being that the ISS is already built for a high radiation/EMI environment.

What would be more realistic is being inside the station, experience something similar to a power surge/brownout and then being pelted by 'hail'.

 

[Fayd]

Sure it would make a "shockwave" of sorts (although the light burst would come first). It would just be heavily attenuated compared to the ground-level ones we're used to, since it would be 100% composed of matter from the bomb itself. In an earth-level explosion, an initial low-mass high-velocity detonation imparts its momentum to the matter immediately surrounding it, which spreads it to the matter immediately surrounding that, and so on, propagating outwards at the speed of sound. Here, the material from the bomb would be ejected outwards at high velocity. It would be more likely to hole the ISS a number of times than blow it apart as shown in the video.

...and you'd be able to turn your head just fine...you're turning it within the suit, the suit itself isn't moving.

that's not a shockwave, that's shrapnel. and it wouldnt. that gets vaporized BY the bomb.

all you would have in space is the massive radiation surge.

 

[KIAman]

that's not a shockwave, that's shrapnel. and it wouldnt. that gets vaporized BY the bomb.

all you would have in space is the massive radiation surge.

There is always going to be shrapnel. E=MC^2. Translation: if all matter was converted to "massive radiation surge" it would create enough energy to assplode the earth and the moon.

The whole reason why nuclear weapons are so powerful is that a small (a very small) amount of mass is converted to energy.

 

[exdeath]

There is always going to be shrapnel. E=MC^2. Translation: if all matter was converted to "massive radiation surge" it would create enough energy to assplode the earth and the moon.

The whole reason why nuclear weapons are so powerful is that a small (a very small) amount of mass is converted to energy.

It's a question of how much of that 'shrapnel' is in gas/plasma form, eg: vaporized, and how hot or solid it is by the time it reaches the station.