End Priveleged Class, End Unions.

[Matt915]

Daily Beast Article

Amen. I've been saying this for years, it's nice to see others that agree. The part that resonated for me was how abuse by unions pushes centrists towards the Republican party.

I've always felt that unions, while necessary 100 years ago, are just a complete waste of worker's money at this point. Even things like teachers unions....you don't NEED a union siphoning off your paycheck every week. I get that you have to negotiate for raises...so form temporary committees and associations to negotiate for them, and use similar threats/tactics as you would with a union.

Hell, if anything, unions in this country make it next to impossible to get rid of some of the shittier employees in organizations and let more deserving people get a chance. I can't enumerate the number of awful teachers I had in school growing up, yet my gf who is actually a very good teacher is having trouble getting her foot in the door. She works as a para-professional right now 1 on 1 with a special needs middle-schooler. In the town she's in EVERYONE has to pay into the union if they work in any teaching capacity. But here's the rub: They don't represent her. They don't negotiate for her benefits, vacation time, wages, or anything. But somehow it's still mandatory for her and her colleagues who aren't represented by this union to pay into it. Isn't that what the mob does? Makes you pay them protection money so you don't get your business firebombed by that same mob?

The manufactured Madison, Wis., mob is not the movement the White House was hoping for. Both may find themselves at the wrong end of the populist pitchfork. While I generally defend collective bargaining and private-sector unions (lots of airline pilots in my family), it is the abuse by public unions and their bosses that pushes centrists like me to the GOP. It is the right and duty of citizens to petition their government. The Tea Party and Republicans seek to limit government growth to protect their pocketbooks. Public-union bosses want to increase the cost of government to protect their racket.

1. Public unions are big money.
Public unions are big money. Paul Krugman is correct: we do need “some counterweight to the political power of big money.” But in the Alice in Wonderland world where what’s up is down and what’s down is up, Krugman believes public unions do not represent big money. Of the top 20 biggest givers in federal-level politics over the past 20 years, 10 are unions; just four are corporations. The three biggest public unions gave $171.5 million for the 2010 elections alone, according to The Wall Street Journal. That’s big money.

2. Public unions redistribute wealth.
Public employees contribute real value for the benefit of all citizens. Public-union bosses collect real money from all taxpayers for the benefit of a few. Unlike private-sector jobs, which are more than fully funded through revenues created in a voluntary exchange of money for goods or serv-ices, public-sector jobs are funded by taxpayer dollars, forcibly collected by the government (union dues are often deducted from public employees’ paychecks). In 28 states, state and local employees must pay full union dues or be fired. A sizable portion of those dues is then donated by the public unions almost exclusively to Democratic candidates. Michael Barone sums it up: “public-employee unions are a mechanism by which every taxpayer is forced to fund the Democratic Party.”

3. Public unions silence the voters’ voice.
Big money from public unions, collected through mandatory dues, and funded entirely by the taxpayer, is then redistributed as campaign cash to help elect the politicians who are then supposed to represent taxpayers in negotiations with those same unions. In effect, the unions sit on both sides of the table and collectively bargain to raise taxes while the voters’ voice is silenced. But the noisy mob in Madison is amplified beyond its numbers. Wisconsin faces a $137 million deficit this year, and a $3.6 billion shortfall in the next two-year budget. The proposals offered by Gov. Scott Walker would avert 5,500 layoffs of public employees and save $300 million. The public unions, representing just 300,000 government employees in the Badger State, are trying to trump the will of the voters. Though voters don’t get to sit at the bargaining table, they do speak collectively at the ballot box.

Michael Barone sums it up: “Public-employee unions are a mechanism by which every taxpayer is forced to fund the Democratic Party.”

Article - McKinnon Wisconsin Protesters in Wisconsin's capitol building, in Madison. "The primary purpose of public unions today is to work against the financial interests of taxpayers," writes Mark McKinnon. (Scott Olson / Getty Images)

4. Public unions are unnecessary.
The primary purpose of private-sector unions today is to get workers a larger share of the profits they helped create. But with a power greater than their numbers, these unions have destroyed the manufacturing sector, forcing jobs overseas by driving labor costs above the price consumers here will pay. The government is a monopoly and it earns no profits to be shared. Public employees are already protected by statutes that preclude arbitrary hiring and firing decisions.

The primary purpose of public unions today, as ugly as it sounds, is to work against the financial interests of taxpayers: the more public employees are paid in wages and uncapped benefits, the less taxpayers keep of the money they earn. It’s time to call an end to the privileged class. And the White House makes a mistake if it thinks it can grow a manufactured and uncivil unrest into a popular movement. Voters will not follow those who flee.

As vice chairman of Public Strategies and president of Maverick Media, Mark McKinnon has helped meet strategic challenges for candidates, corporations and causes, including George W. Bush, John McCain, Governor Ann Richards, Charlie Wilson, Lance Armstrong, and Bono.

 

[Phokus]

The irony is that we're going backwards (and have been for 30 years) and unions are becoming MORE necessary. When post ww2 war torn Europe and Asia were still recovering, unions were actually less necessary because nobody was competing with us. When everyone rebuilt, was it any wonder that jobs disappeared?

Union membership has declined sharply and keeps getting decimated. The 'privileged' class is not unions, it's Wall Street and the wealthy in general. Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor and middle class. That's the world we live in.

 

[feralkid]

Bull-pizzle.

If people want to form unions, let no government deny them.

Workers' rights are human rights.

 

[matt0611]

Bull-pizzle.

If people want to form unions, let no government deny them.

Workers' rights are human rights.

If people want to form unions fine.

If people want to form public unions fine, doesn't mean the government has to negotiate with the union. You have no right to bargain with your employer how you wish.

 

[Craig234]

Shocking, a Republican strategist puts out propaganda against unions.

Yes now that workers are the dominant power in the country, who needs unions?

For the last few decades, worker income has gone up far faster than than of the billionares, and unemployment is at a low point. Time for a shift to the rich.

It's sad some people fall for this crap, not understanding the role unions play - imperfect as they are - in giving workers some power against the corporations.

As for their funding democrats - unions are a David to the Republicans' corporate Goliaths, now unleashed by the Supreme Court to give unlimited amounts in elections.

In the last election, most top givers were corporate donations, 93% of the Chamber of Commerce went to Republicans.

This is nothing but partisan political attacking against Democrats' funding.

I'm looking for one word in this Republican's oh so concerned for society article against the corruption of the corporatocracy, against the Wall Stree too big too fail - not a word.

This guy is just the sort of poster child for the forces that are destroying the country - a hired hand propagandist to get the people to vote against their own interest.

Fact is, unions not only protect their own workers, the things they get raise the compensation for non-union workers as well. If you like the third world, listen to McKinnon.

 

[feralkid]

If people want to form unions fine.

If people want to form public unions fine, doesn't mean the government has to negotiate with the union. You have no right to bargain with your employer how you wish.

Wot?

I can and do bargain with my employer...union or not.

 

[matt0611]

Wot?

I can and do bargain with my employer...union or not.

I understand that. You CAN. Doesn't mean your employer has to negotiate with you collectively if it doesn't wish to.

Bargaining means both parties accept the terms voluntarily.

 

[Phokus]

Wot?

I can and do bargain with my employer...union or not.

It's obvious he wants total domination and slavery by the capital class.

 

[Genx87]

The irony is that we're going backwards (and have been for 30 years) and unions are becoming MORE necessary. When post ww2 war torn Europe and Asia were still recovering, unions were actually less necessary because nobody was competing with us. When everyone rebuilt, was it any wonder that jobs disappeared?

Union membership has declined sharply and keeps getting decimated. The 'privileged' class is not unions, it's Wall Street and the wealthy in general. Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor and middle class. That's the world we live in.

How do unions prevent jobs from being shipped to lower cost labor markets? This should be a good discussion lol.

I do agree with you on the last statement. We are socializing losses and privatizing profit at an alarming rate. But imo the answer isnt more collective power in DC. Collectivists are successfully convincing people they need more power and then they bail out their collectivist friends in big business. And we wonder why the avg american is being ram rodded from both ends?

 

[Phokus]

How do unions prevent jobs from being shipped to lower cost labor markets? This should be a good discussion lol.

I do agree with you on the last statement. We are socializing losses and privatizing profit at an alarming rate. But imo the answer isnt more collective power in DC. Collectivists are successfully convincing people they need more power and then they bail out their collectivist friends in big business. And we wonder why the avg american is being ram rodded from both ends.

Look at Germany

Did you read this thread? They have worker representation on the board, harmonious union/management relationship, they have policies that spur small business entrepreneurialism at home (local banks can only lend locally) , etc.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2144515

Germany, despite being a tiny country (comparatively speaking), is always in a neck and neck race with China for the #1 exporting country in the world. Just look at how well they did in 2010:

But in recent years, German firms, aided by farsighted government reforms, have turned that into an art form, forging the most competitive industrial sector of any advanced economy. The proof is a boom in exports, which jumped 18.5% in 2010, that is the envy of the developed world.

German exports to China surged 45% in the first 10 months of 2010. In fact, Germany is the only major industrialized country other than Japan in which exports are playing a significantly larger role in the economy — 41% of GDP in 2009, from 33% in 2000.

A complete rebuke of the middle class destroying policies of conservatives and libertarians everywhere.

It's a complete myth that you HAVE to get rid of your manufacturing if you're a developed country. German products are very expensive, but their quality is unsurpassed and the demand for it is almost universal.

 

[HumblePie]

Bull-pizzle.

If people want to form unions, let no government deny them.

Workers' rights are human rights.

If people want to form unions that is fine. But those that do not want to be a part of a union should not be affect by them. Forcing people to pay union dues by LAW is a scam.

 

[Texashiker]

Amen. I've been saying this for years, it's nice to see others that agree. The part that resonated for me was how abuse by unions pushes centrists towards the Republican party.

I've always felt that unions, while necessary 100 years ago, are just a complete waste of worker's money at this point.

Yea, with companies like wal-mart paying their employees sub-standard wages, who needs unions.

Part of the problem with unions - the companies that need to be unionized aren't. Mcdonalds, wal-mart, best buy,,,,,,,, and the rest of the fortune 500 should have unions so that their employees can earn a livable wage.

If the Walton family is listed as one of the richest families in the world, there is no reason for their employees to be drawing social assistance.

 

[Sinsear]

I hardly consider what my union does "siphoning" my paycheck for no reason. What they have secured for me and my family is head spinningly good. What i find amazing is not so many years ago people were living it up with wall street jobs and flipping mcmansions, embarrassed to be a civl servant. Now all i hear is let's balance the budgets on the backs of the workers, they have it too good. Jealousy is an ugly thing.

 

[Genx87]

Look at Germany

Did you read this thread? They have worker representation on the board, harmonious union/management relationship, they have policies that spur small business entrepreneurialism at home (local banks can only lend locally) , etc.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2144515

Germany, despite being a tiny country (comparatively speaking), is always in a neck and neck race with China for the #1 exporting country in the world. Just look at how well they did in 2010:





A complete rebuke of the middle class destroying policies of conservatives and libertarians everywhere.

It's a complete myth that you HAVE to get rid of your manufacturing if you're a developed country. German products are very expensive, but their quality is unsurpassed and the demand for it is almost universal.

I didnt read the entire article. But remember during the mid 2000s while we had sub 5% unemployment they were still pushing double digits. And Germany and the rest of western Europe regardless of what an article will paint had serious labor issues with the fall of the Eastern Bloc. Cheap labor was plentiful and they had issues keeping jobs in their countries.

That said, how does a union that has a mission statement of getting the most for their members, which usually means inflated wages and benefits, stop companies from shipping those high cost jobs to low cost markets? It doesnt make any sense imo. To me if a union uses its collective power to force higher wages and benefits. It would accelerate the demise of those jobs to Asia, Mexico, or any low cost labor market. Not stop them.

 

[feralkid]

If people want to form unions that is fine. But those that do not want to be a part of a union should not be affect by them. Forcing people to pay union dues by LAW is a scam.

Some things in life are determined by majority rule. Majority of the people, by the people, for the people.

If you want dictatorships, you're in the wrong country.

 

[matt0611]

Some things in life are determined by majority rule. Majority of the people, by the people, for the people.

If you want dictatorships, you're in the wrong country.

Huh?
How about people have the voluntarily choice to join a union or not?
How is that a dictatorship?

 

[Phokus]

I didnt read the entire article. But remember during the mid 2000s while we had sub 5% unemployment they were still pushing double digits. And Germany and the rest of western Europe regardless of what an article will paint had serious labor issues with the fall of the Eastern Bloc. Cheap labor was plentiful and they had issues keeping jobs in their countries.

That said, how does a union that has a mission statement of getting the most for their members, which usually means inflated wages and benefits, stop companies from shipping those high cost jobs to low cost markets? It doesnt make any sense imo. To me if a union uses its collective power to force higher wages and benefits. It would accelerate the demise of those jobs to Asia, Mexico, or any low cost labor market. Not stop them.

Yes, but that was a decade ago and Germany turned it around. They are the envy of western Europe and the rest of the Europeans complain about them constantly. How do you explain that they've massively INCREASED exports to a low wage country like China in 2010?

As for your 2nd part, it's simple: adopt similar reforms that Germany has. Negotiations don't work when management holds all the cards. In Germany, it's law that workers have representation on the board of directors and they negotiate with each other in good faith because it's more of a partnership rather than a contentious struggle to the death.

Also, our policies encourage big business and not small business (notable exception is high tech startups). Germany's resurgence doesn't have much to do with finding the next Google or Facebook, their growing industrial base is very unsexy but it provides jobs for the middle class. Is it any wonder that big corporations are having record profits without hiring here? That's because they are making more of their profits oversees. I think i read something like 10 years ago, their oversees profits were like 33%, now it's up to 50%. Your local small business, OTOH, is not fairing as well because their profits are made at home and we still have high unemployment. Germany figured out correctly that small business and family owned corporations were the path to prosperity, and thus they have regulations and incentives that spur those types of businesses.

 

[PsiStar]

I agree somewhat with OP, in some cases unions are an anachronism. The example of Wall Street is good in that unions have no relevance in dealing with those issues.

The design of public unions do not help the public good. Certainly teachers unions do not. Benefits & pay for public unions need to be tied directly to the local economy. Listening to teachers talk about the degrees they get & how it directly affects vacation time boils my blood ... uh, and this helps you teach how? There needs to be a direct evaluation of teaching and getting advanced degrees.

On the other hand, a steel workers' union is quite different tho and does have a place.

Truckers' unions ... ehhh ... how does that help the enterprising independent trucker? They do not help.

Spoken as someone who was a member of the railroad maintenance of way workers ... never did a thing for me except take my money. How is mandated membership different than mandated health insurance? The latter would more likely be helpful.

 

[Zebo]

Yup I can't wait until we get 18 hour days at suicidal inducing FoxConn company compounds building Phones for Chinese.

Right wing is so utterly clueless. Almost all wealth is controlled by .01% and while trying to further their gains they cheer em on.

Let me tell you something. I'm close to 1% but I would have nothing without a vibrant middle class to sell my warez to. I built homes, Mcmansions sold to a vibrant middle/upper middle class. I sell Liquor to a vibrant middle upper middle class. Without them I have nothing. I want everyone union making 100K a year.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The article is the damage that public unions are doing, not unions in general.

 

[Genx87]

Bull-pizzle.

If people want to form unions, let no government deny them.

Workers' rights are human rights.

I am not saying my view is unions need to be outlawed.

But the collective nature of a union is anti-competitive. Labor is a product that business and govt pay for. If business were allowed to collude like labor, that would mean higher prices for consumers. Luckily we have laws against that. So of course one has to ask why is labor allowed to sell its product by colluding?

 

[feralkid]

Huh?
How about people have the voluntarily choice to join a union or not?
How is that a dictatorship?

Derp. People have the right to vote for a union or not.

They have a right to work in a union shop or not.

No free government would dictate whether they can or not.

Get it?

 

[Genx87]

Yes, but that was a decade ago and Germany turned it around. They are the envy of western Europe and the rest of the Europeans complain about them constantly. How do you explain that they've massively INCREASED exports to a low wage country like China in 2010?

These labor issues were as recent as 2005-2006. They were pushing 12% while we were at 5%. I explain their increasing of exports as they are making products people in China want to purchase.

As for your 2nd part, it's simple: adopt similar reforms that Germany has. Negotiations don't work when management holds all the cards. In Germany, it's law that workers have representation on the board of directors and they negotiate with each other in good faith because it's more of a partnership rather than a contentious struggle to the death.

Not saying this isnt a good idea. I just dont know enough about it. On the face of it, it does sound good. But at the same time we are not Germany.

Also, our policies encourage big business and not small business (notable exception is high tech startups). Germany's resurgence doesn't have much to do with finding the next Google or Facebook, their growing industrial base is very unsexy but it provides jobs for the middle class. Is it any wonder that big corporations are having record profits without hiring here? That's because they are making more of their profits oversees. I think i read something like 10 years ago, their oversees profits were like 33%, now it's up to 50%. Your local small business, OTOH, is not fairing as well because their profits are made at home and we still have high unemployment. Germany figured out correctly that small business and family owned corporations were the path to prosperity, and thus they have regulations and incentives that spur those types of businesses.

Small vs big business in this country is a huge govt issue. As we have already seen. Small business has almost no chance against big business in this country. Each day big business enacts regulation that makes it harder for small business to start, grow, and survive. This is why I am always talking about decentralizing power out of DC. You complain about the welfare for the rich and big business. I agree! But what most people dont understand or want to see. Big business is getting govt regulation enacted to crush small business. That is even more damaging imo. Because small and medium business are the growth drivers in this economy. And it sickens me to see Obama hold a jobs council and invite big business leaders to the white house to discusss how to create jobs. Big business doesnt create jobs in this country!

 

[matt0611]

Derp. People have the right to vote for a union or not.

They have a right to work in a union shop or not.

No free government would dictate whether they can or not.

Get it?

Why should the government have a law that people who want to work for it have to join a union and take their money by force?

If you want to work for the government you should have a choice weather you want to join an organization and directly take money from your pay check to them.

The government is not dictating shit. You're the one who wants them to. You're the one who wants dictating, I want freedom and choice. Get it?

 

[Matt915]

If people want to form unions fine.

If people want to form public unions fine, doesn't mean the government has to negotiate with the union. You have no right to bargain with your employer how you wish.

Yeah, I have no problem with people forming unions. That's fine...but it makes no sense to make them mandatory as they are in most school districts for instance (like with my gf's for example). It also makes no sense when they negotiate for raises/benefits that destroy or otherwise compromise the long term viability of the company, such as the UAW, or in Wisconsin...there's NO money there...yet people don't get this